HOH Top 60 Centers of All Time

[daver]

I'm not sure I'd have to look at it more closely.

How about you? What do you feel Malkin scores better than Sakic at? And in which components is the gap widest - one way or another?

I believe that Malkin is the better player on a per game basis primarily as he has been elite starting in his 2nd year vs. Sakic who needed more time to reach that same level. Sakic clearly has the better raw point finishes, a similar peak season and the superior playoff resume. Malkin can close the gap with more elite full seasons which can strengthen the case that he was simply a better player and achieved enough to make that indisputable, and remove the reasonable value that has to be applied to partial seasons. I think there is a clear difference between Crosby's partial seasons and Malkin's partial seasons, namely the # of them.

I agree with you that offensive production should be the primary metric.

 

[trentmccleary]

Sundin outscored Sakic over those 2 years. Just like Forsberg outscored Sakic over the next 5 years after that.

Neither of those statements look accurate.
Sundin outscored Sakic one season in Quebec and a handful times more than that, though typically only when he played 17 or more games than Sakic.
Forsberg outscored Sakic four times total and they weren't consecutive.

 

[Staniowski]

Neither of those statements look accurate.
Sundin outscored Sakic one season in Quebec and a handful times more than that, though typically only when he played 17 or more games than Sakic.
Forsberg outscored Sakic four times total and they weren't consecutive.

They are accurate.

For Sundin and Sakic, this is referring to the 2 seasons of '92-'93 and '93 -'94, where Sundin outscored Sakic in total over the 2 seasons 199 to 197 (Sakic had a very small lead in PPG, as he played 2 fewer games).

For Forsberg and Sakic, this is specifically referring to the 5 seasons after that, so from '94-'95 to '98-'99. During this time, Forsberg had 440 points and Sakic had 415 points. Forsberg also had a higher PPG - 1.279 to Sakic's 1.254. During the 10 seasons that Forsberg and Sakic were on the same team, Forsberg had a significantly higher PPG - 1.28 to 1.21, and, of course Sakic had more points over those 10 seasons, as Forsberg missed a lot of games due to injury.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

In a few years, we're gonna have to start discussing McDavid's placement. Already a Hart/Ross/Lindsay/1st team all star to his name, and has a good chance of adding a few more of those to his trophy case by the end of the year.

 

[Thenameless]

In a few years, we're gonna have to start discussing McDavid's placement. Already a Hart/Ross/Lindsay/1st team all star to his name, and has a good chance of adding a few more of those to his trophy case by the end of the year.

He's moving up really, really fast. He's done as well as can be expected given all the hype that went with his pre-NHL status. I'm a bit of a nay-sayer (want proof before declaring anything), so he's really exceeded what I expected he'd be able to do in his first three years.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Barring a disaster, McDavid will have a great regular season career.Now he needs the playoffs, to avoid suffering the same faith as Ovechkin.

 

[bobholly39]

Barring a disaster, McDavid will have a great regular season career.Now he needs the playoffs, to avoid suffering the same faith as Ovechkin.

No sense going down that path imo. Why wouldn't he have great playoffs? He's barely even 21
I think Mario Lemieux is a top 5 playoff performer of all time and he didn't make the playoffs until his what....5th or 6th season?

At 21 years old McDavid is a top 3-5 player of all time, arguably. Don't know that I can name 5 players who had a better 3 year start to their career than him by age 21. Sky's the limit for him. But he of course has a tremendously long way to go.

 

[Theokritos]

Can we all please stop with the speculations and predictions? This board is called "history of hockey", not "future of hockey".

Barring a disaster, McDavid will have a great regular season career.Now he needs the playoffs, to avoid suffering the same faith as Ovechkin.

No sense going down that path imo. Why wouldn't he have great playoffs? He's barely even 21

 

[daver]

At 21 years old McDavid is a top 3-5 player of all time, arguably. Don't know that I can name 5 players who had a better 3 year start to their career than him by age 21. Sky's the limit for him. But he of course has a tremendously long way to go.

Wayne, Mario and Crosby for forwards. Orr for d-men. Anyone else?

Arguably best 3 year start since Crosby but OV and Malkin have great cases too.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Can we all please stop with the speculations and predictions? This board is called "history of hockey", not "future of hockey".

By means of keeping this focused on history, I'd say Eric Lindros is the lower-end projection for a player who legitimately emerges as a powerhouse from Day One entering the league. Lindros pretty much ran into every speed bump imaginable: an ignominious experience in the draft process, extremely high competition from legendary centers, playing on a team that flamed out spectacularly in the playoffs, severe injury problems that shortened his career, off-ice battles with his organization. Nearly everything went wrong and he ended up achieving far less than anyone would have anticipated. He sits at #38 on the all time list based on the sheer generational talent he demonstrated during his 7 or 8 year prime.

So to me, anyone like McDavid who comes into the league with that level of "splash" is starting around #38 and working his way up from there.

 

[daver]

By means of keeping this focused on history, I'd say Eric Lindros is the lower-end projection for a player who legitimately emerges as a powerhouse from Day One entering the league. Lindros pretty much ran into every speed bump imaginable: an ignominious experience in the draft process, extremely high competition from legendary centers, playing on a team that flamed out spectacularly in the playoffs, severe injury problems that shortened his career, off-ice battles with his organization. Nearly everything went wrong and he ended up achieving far less than anyone would have anticipated. He sits at #38 on the all time list based on the sheer generational talent he demonstrated during his 7 or 8 year prime.

So to me, anyone like McDavid who comes into the league with that level of "splash" is starting around #38 and working his way up from there.

But Lindros has considerably more actual achievements on his resume to back up his powerhouse status coming into the league.

 

[unknown33]

Wayne, Mario and Crosby for forwards. Orr for d-men. Anyone else?

Crosby did not have a better start than McDavid.

 

[bobholly39]

Wayne, Mario and Crosby for forwards. Orr for d-men. Anyone else?

Arguably best 3 year start since Crosby but OV and Malkin have great cases too.

Gretzky had a better 3 year start.

After that it's arguable. McDavid vs Crosby is a flip a coin over 3 years (and no i don't think it's worth going into an in-depth analysis here if you disagree - just acknowledge that it's close and that a case can be made for either/or).
I'd even go as far as saying Lemieux vs McDavid is arguable after 3 years. Lemieux was probably "better" but McDavid has the awards so far.

McDavid has had an incredible start to his career. I don't think it's outlandish to suggest it's one of the top 3-5 starts of all time. Very weak on the playoff front of course, but his regular season play and achievements so far is very strong.

 

[tarheelhockey]

But Lindros has considerably more actual achievements on his resume to back up his powerhouse status coming into the league.

How so?

Lindros
3 years before draft -
2 years before draft -
1 year before draft - OHL MVP, CHL MVP, Memorial Cup All Star, IIHF U20 Gold Medal/All Star/Best Forward, Canada Cup Gold
NHL Season 1 -
NHL Season 2 -
NHL Season 3 - Hart, 1AS, 1st in points (tied Jagr for 1st in points but lost the Ross on the goals tiebreaker, despite having 2 fewer GP... I say give him credit for a Ross in this context)

McDavid
3 years before draft - OHL Rookie of the Year, IIHF U18 Gold Medal/Tournament MVP/Best Forward/Scoring Leader
2 years before draft -
1 year beore draft - OHL MVP, CHL MVP, OHL Playoffs MVP, IIHF U20 Gold Medal/All Star
NHL Season 1 -
NHL Season 2 - Hart, Ross, Pearson, 1AS
NHL Season 3 - Ross, other awards unannounced

So at a minimum, McDavid has a scoring title and a Pearson over Lindros. That is before we find out about other 2018 awards, which will almost certainly include another AS award.

Unless you put an awful lot of stock in Lindros playing a support role in the Canada Cup, or his having won the Memorial Cup as opposed to merely being the OHL playoff MVP, I don't see anything here which he accomplished at a younger age than McDavid.

 

[daver]

Gretzky had a better 3 year start.

After that it's arguable. McDavid vs Crosby is a flip a coin over 3 years (and no i don't think it's worth going into an in-depth analysis here if you disagree - just acknowledge that it's close and that a case can be made for either/or).
I'd even go as far as saying Lemieux vs McDavid is arguable after 3 years. Lemieux was probably "better" but McDavid has the awards so far.

McDavid has had an incredible start to his career. I don't think it's outlandish to suggest it's one of the top 3-5 starts of all time. Very weak on the playoff front of course, but his regular season play and achievements so far is very strong.

Didn't say it was outlandish. Just pointing out players who potentially had better starts.

 

[daver]

How so?

Lindros
3 years before draft -
2 years before draft -
1 year before draft - OHL MVP, CHL MVP, Memorial Cup All Star, IIHF U20 Gold Medal/All Star/Best Forward, Canada Cup Gold
NHL Season 1 -
NHL Season 2 -
NHL Season 3 - Hart, 1AS, 1st in points (tied Jagr for 1st in points but lost the Ross on the goals tiebreaker, despite having 2 fewer GP... I say give him credit for a Ross in this context)

McDavid
3 years before draft - OHL Rookie of the Year, IIHF U18 Gold Medal/Tournament MVP/Best Forward/Scoring Leader
2 years before draft -
1 year beore draft - OHL MVP, CHL MVP, IIHF U20 Gold Medal/All Star
NHL Season 1 -
NHL Season 2 - Hart, Ross, Pearson, 1AS
NHL Season 3 - Ross, other awards unannounced

So at a minimum, McDavid has a scoring title and a Pearson over Lindros. That is before we find out about other 2018 awards, which will almost certainly include another AS award.

Unless you put an awful lot of stock in Lindros playing a support role in the Canada Cup, I don't see anything here which he accomplished at a younger age than McDavid.

LIndros is 38th on the list based on his whole career, not just his first three years.

 

[daver]

Crosby did not have a better start than McDavid.

Their regular season resumes are a toss up, playoffs is clearly Crosby.

 

[daver]

On the three year theme, if we consider Belliveau started in 53/54, he is up there with the best three year start among centers.

 

[tarheelhockey]

LIndros is 38th on the list based on his whole career, not just his first three years.

I get that, but my point is that you take a player who has a Lindros/McDavid (or Crosby, Lemieux, Gretzky, whoever) type of immediate splash in the league, and you know you're going to get a certain number of all-time great seasons out of that player unless they get hit by a train or something.

Lindros didn't get hit by a train, but just about everything else went the wrong way for him. Off ice issues, team playoff issues, injuries, controversy, you name it. He dominated but there will always a sense of "what could have been" after he was about 22 years old. And that was STILL good enough for #38 on an all time list.

McDavid, obviously the same caliber of player. I'm not going to argue whether he's better, because this is a history board. But if you look at what Lindros did after age 21 (maybe 2 seasons good enough to be relevant here), that is a super super conservative expectation for McDavid. So AFAIC, without necessarily excluding hit-by-train scenarios, I'm comfortable assuming McDavid is already decorated enough to be around #40 on this list as an absolute basement for his career.

 

[daver]

I get that, but my point is that you take a player who has a Lindros/McDavid (or Crosby, Lemieux, Gretzky, whoever) type of immediate splash in the league, and you know you're going to get a certain number of all-time great seasons out of that player unless they get hit by a train or something.

Lindros didn't get hit by a train, but just about everything else went the wrong way for him. Off ice issues, team playoff issues, injuries, controversy, you name it. He dominated but there will always a sense of "what could have been" after he was about 22 years old. And that was STILL good enough for #38 on an all time list.

McDavid, obviously the same caliber of player. I'm not going to argue whether he's better, because this is a history board. But if you look at what Lindros did after age 21 (maybe 2 seasons good enough to be relevant here), that is a super super conservative expectation for McDavid. So AFAIC, without necessarily excluding hit-by-train scenarios, I'm comfortable assuming McDavid is already decorated enough to be around #40 on this list as an absolute basement for his career.

That sounds all reasonable but it is pretty black and white that ratings are based on what happened, rather than what reasonably could happen. Crosby would already be at #3 if we did that.

Malkin was #40 as of 2013. There is no way that McDavid is at 40 even if he doesn't play another game.

 

[tarheelhockey]

That sounds all reasonable but it is pretty black and white that ratings are based on what happened, rather than what reasonably could happen. Crosby would already be at #3 if we did that.

Malkin was #40 as of 2013. There is no way that McDavid is at 40 even if he doesn't play another game.

I'm not saying McDavid is there if he doesn't play another game... but come on, he's going to play more games. I don't see a scenario, short of hit-by-train, where he fails to have at least a Lindros-like level of success in his 20s. Which would put him on par with Lindros' full career, or Malkin's career circa 2013 (bearing in mind that Malkin was slightly more decorated but only 26 years old at the time). That's what I mean by, McDavid is already at a point where we can look at him in any reasonable scenario and say he's a top-40 center.

 

[K Fleur]

But Lindros has considerably more actual achievements on his resume to back up his powerhouse status coming into the league.

Not really.

After just 200ish games McDavid has already amassed a trophy case better than Lindros’.

Lindros still has more impressive playoff achievements, but we’re talking about a guy who maybe falls into the top 150 playoff performers all time.

 

[daver]

Not really.

After just 200ish games McDavid has already amassed a trophy case better than Lindros’.

Lindros still has more impressive playoff achievements, but we’re talking about a guy who maybe falls into the top 150 playoff performers all time.

You aren't usually one to pull out the "trophy" argument without proper context.

I think Lindros has the better peak season (94/95), and arguably the 2nd best season in 95/96 to go along with his elite partial seasons. His playoffs are significantly better regardless of all-time placing.

But this really is a silly debate to have. Obviously two radically different situations.

 

[daver]

I'm not saying McDavid is there if he doesn't play another game... but come on, he's going to play more games. I don't see a scenario, short of hit-by-train, where he fails to have at least a Lindros-like level of success in his 20s. Which would put him on par with Lindros' full career, or Malkin's career circa 2013 (bearing in mind that Malkin was slightly more decorated but only 26 years old at the time). That's what I mean by, McDavid is already at a point where we can look at him in any reasonable scenario and say he's a top-40 center.

Not if Malkin was only #40 as of his 8th season, a player that arguably had a better first three years than McDavid along with one of the most dominant Art Ross wins since Wayne/Mario.

 

[unknown33]

Their regular season resumes are a toss up, playoffs is clearly Crosby.

How's is 2 art ross seasons vs 1 art ross season a tossup?