HOH Top 40 Stanley Cup Playoff Performers of All Time
- Thread starter quoipourquoi
- Start date
Sonic Disturbance
Grandmaster User
- Jan 1, 2009
- 2,315
- 140
Debatable. In 2008, Malkin had similar stats to Crosby prior to the finals and was regarded as having the better playoff run up to that point. Crosby outplayed him in the final so it was kind of like 2009 in reverse. Still he had 10 goals and 22 points in 20 games. I'd still classify that as a great playoff run. I don't like this whole classifying of playoff runs too, I look at just all playoff games played or all playoff series played. I thought Malkin was really good in 2014, much better than Crosby (who was injured, but still), but it's not his fault his team lost in the second round because nobody else showed up. So I guess this doesn't count as a great run because it only consisted of two rounds. I remember Malkin's line was pretty much the only thing going in Game 7 against the Rangers and they were really good even though Pittsburgh lost. If you look at number of great playoff runs, a guy like Theo Fleury could be argued to have zero great playoff runs. Yet he was absolutely brilliant in the early 1990s, but his team just lost in the first round all the time. From 1991-1995 he had 43 points in 27 games. Does it really make a difference if it's spread over a few years vs. one year? It's not like the regular season where every player can play the same number of games. You play number of games in the playoffs based on whether your team advances. All I know is that when voting started, Malkin and Crosby had a nearly identical GPG in the playoffs with Crosby being just slightly ahead in PPG. They also had almost the same amounts of GP (I think Malkin had one extra).
Also, out of curiosity what was Crosby's three great runs? 2008 and 2009 obviously. Was the third 2010 or 2016? TBH I wouldn't say 2016 was a great run. It was a good run and he won the Smythe because it was more of a joint effort with no one particularly standing out. Similar to how I don't consider Kane's 2013 Smythe to be "great". He was much better in 2010, 2014, and 2015.
Michael Farkas
Grace Personified
Malkin wasn't great in 2008. He was a let down as it got later and more physical. He torched loser teams like Ottawa and New York, but later in the playoffs he wore down markedly. There was actually some knee-jerk concern in the fanbase about Malkin after the 2008 playoffs...those fears were allievated the next summer...
Good post. I hold Crosby above, but don't see why they both shouldn't be up for discussion at the same time.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Yes. Let's also not forget that Sid was an established star by 2008 who recieved all the attention of the opposition, while Malkin was still something of an up-and-comer who feasted on lesser defenders.
Basically, I have serious problems with this list, but there should be a gap between Crosby and Malkin if we're going to take into account 100 + years of hockey.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Honestly, had we come up with something everyone thought was perfect on our first attempt at tackling a relatively unique topic, I would have been uncomfortable with the results even more.
Sonic Disturbance
Grandmaster User
- Jan 1, 2009
- 2,315
- 140
He was a let down the the SCF. I recall most people actually think he outplayed Crosby until the third round, and definitely in the Philadephia ECF. He has that famous goal where he got checked in the Philly zone, got mad and got a stretch pass from inside the blue line and scored on a breakaway slapshot. He was terrible in the Detroit Series though.
Sonic Disturbance
Grandmaster User
- Jan 1, 2009
- 2,315
- 140
I agree there should be a gap, but I don't think the gap is particularly large. Crosby ranked #27 and Malkin isn't even in the Round 2, Vote 8 list of 23 players, so the highest he would possibly rank is #51, and that's excluding other guys not mentioned like Zetterberg. So realistically probably around 55-60.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
I'll have the aggregate list up tomorrow so you can see where he placed in that. There was a gap between the last eligible player and the next group, which off the top of my head had both Malkin and Brett Hull. Can't remember where Belfour landed, but I had him pretty high.
Have to imagine Malkin will be top-40 soon. Didn't have him in my original top-40, but I would have been looking at him now. I might actually like Kane more though.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Kinda wish I had done my giant goaltending research project earlier. I sold Brodeur short.
Ed Belfour vs. Martin Brodeur (min. 3 rounds)
64.9% EvE - Brodeur, 1995
66.9% EvE - Brodeur, 1994
68.8% EvE - Brodeur, 2003
70.2% EvE - Belfour, 2000
70.6% EvE - Belfour, 1999
70.8% EvE - Brodeur, 2000
77.3% EvE - Belfour, 1992
79.0% EvE - Belfour, 1995
80.0% EvE - Belfour, 1998
96.2% EvE - Brodeur, 2001
97.2% EvE - Brodeur, 2012
Michael Farkas
Grace Personified
That happens here a lot, don't worry about it...he says in a smarmy fashion with a non-specific target audience...
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Looking at the playoff numbers from 11 of the HOF/borderline-HOFers from that generation after Billy Smith, I think we have the correct two on the list. But for all of his faults, would Dominik Hasek be next in-line, or at least in the mix with Grant Fuhr and Ed Belfour?
Barrasso, Belfour, Brodeur, Fuhr, Hasek, Hextall, Joseph, Osgood, Roy, Vanbiesbrouck, Vernon (min. 3 rounds)
55.7% EvE - Roy, 1993
58.8% EvE - Vanbiesbrouck, 1996
60.7% EvE - Hasek, 1999
61.3% EvE - Roy, 1986
61.7% EvE - Hasek, 1998
62.6% EvE - Roy, 2001
64.5% EvE - Roy, 1989
64.9% EvE - Brodeur, 1995
66.9% EvE - Roy, 1996
66.9% EvE - Brodeur, 1994
68.0% EvE - Osgood, 2008
68.8% EvE - Brodeur, 2003
69.2% EvE - Fuhr, 1984
69.6% EvE - Roy, 2000
70.2% EvE - Belfour, 2000
70.6% EvE - Belfour, 1999
70.8% EvE - Brodeur, 2000
71.0% EvE - Vernon, 1997
71.1% EvE - Hextall, 1987
72.5% EvE - Roy, 1997
72.8% EvE - Hasek, 2007
73.9% EvE - Barrasso, 1991
74.5% EvE - Fuhr, 1987
74.7% EvE - Osgood, 2009
77.3% EvE - Belfour, 1992
77.4% EvE - Vernon, 1986
77.6% EvE - Osgood, 1998
78.6% EvE - Vanbiesbrouck, 1986
79.0% EvE - Belfour, 1995
79.2% EvE - Vernon, 1989
79.2% EvE - Barrasso, 1992
79.8% EvE - Fuhr, 1985
80.0% EvE - Belfour, 1998
81.4% EvE - Hasek, 2002
81.6% EvE - Hextall, 1989
82.5% EvE - Roy, 1999
85.5% EvE - Fuhr, 1991
87.3% EvE - Joseph, 2002
87.9% EvE - Roy, 2002
90.9% EvE - Fuhr, 1988
92.2% EvE - Joseph, 1999
95.9% EvE - Osgood, 1996
96.2% EvE - Brodeur, 2001
97.2% EvE - Brodeur, 2012
100.8% EvE - Hextall, 1995
113.1% EvE - Vernon, 1995
I think I would place more trust in Ed Belfour, but I don't know that my trust would necessarily deliver the better playoff performance. But even looking at Hasek's top years (1998 and 1999), would I be complaining if I had Belfour instead? Probably not.
How does Belfour/Fuhr/Hasek shake out for everybody else?
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
It's really strange to see Brodeur's 2012 (when he was great) rank a bit below his 2001 (when he was pretty bad). How much of that is due to the meltdown in Game 6 of the Cup finals?
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Most likely. Typical limitations of save percentage stats is how much one bad game can kill it. But it's also worth pointing out that anything less than 100% is above average, so even 2001 as a whole was better than what is often remembered from the final series.
Individual Rounds - 2001 and 2012
60.4% - Pittsburgh, 2001
73.1% - Carolina, 2001
76.6% - New York, 2012
83.8% - Philadelphia, 2012
96.0% - Florida, 2012
115.2% - Colorado, 2001
119.2% - Toronto, 2001
133.3% - Los Angeles, 2012
Does Florida do Brodeur justice? I would say no, because I wouldn't care about his numbers in some of the games he lost because I know how well he played in the games he won. Next year, I'll probably run a spreadsheet that removes the worst game from a series, because sometimes those things impact save percentage more than they do the series.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
Official NHL Dynasties
1919-27 Senators - Frank Nighbor (#16), technically Frank Boucher (#30)
1941-51 Maple Leafs - Kennedy (#9), Broda (#17)
1949-55 Red Wings - Howe (#5), Kelly (#14)
1952-60 Canadiens - M. Richard (#3), Beliveau (#4), Harvey (#6), Plante (#8), H. Richard (#19) Geoffrion (#25)
1962-67 Maple Leafs - Kelly (#14), Horton (#?)
1964-69 Canadiens - Beliveau (#4), H. Richard (#19), Savard (#27), Lemaire (#37)
1970-79 Canadiens - Beliveau (#4), Lafleur (#15), H. Richard (#19), Robinson (#21), Dryden (#22), Savard (#27), Lemaire (#37)
1980-83 Islanders - Potvin (#10), Bossy (#20), Trottier (#24), Smith (#39)
1983-90 Oilers - Gretzky (#1), Messier (#7), Kurri (#33)
Unofficial "Mini-Dynasties"
1923-25 Canadiens - None
1928-32 Canadiens - None
1934-37 Red Wings - None
1938-41 Bruins - None
1944-47 Canadiens - M. Richard (#3)
1961-65 Black Hawks - Hull (#31)
1970-78 Bruins - Orr (#13), Esposito (#29)
1974-76 Flyers - None
1991-96 Penguins - Lemieux (#11)
1995-03 Devils - Brodeur (#35t), Stevens (#35t), technically Doug Gilmour (#26)
1996-01 Avalanche - Roy (#2), Sakic (#12), Forsberg (#18)
1996-09 Red Wings - Lidstrom (#23), Fedorov (#34)
2007-17 Penguins - Crosby (#27t)
2009-17 Blackhawks - Keith (#38)
On None Of These Teams
Gilmour (#26), Boucher (#30), Pronger (#32), Foyston (#40)
1919-27 Senators - Frank Nighbor (#16), technically Frank Boucher (#30)
1941-51 Maple Leafs - Kennedy (#9), Broda (#17)
1949-55 Red Wings - Howe (#5), Kelly (#14)
1952-60 Canadiens - M. Richard (#3), Beliveau (#4), Harvey (#6), Plante (#8), H. Richard (#19) Geoffrion (#25)
1962-67 Maple Leafs - Kelly (#14), Horton (#?)
1964-69 Canadiens - Beliveau (#4), H. Richard (#19), Savard (#27), Lemaire (#37)
1970-79 Canadiens - Beliveau (#4), Lafleur (#15), H. Richard (#19), Robinson (#21), Dryden (#22), Savard (#27), Lemaire (#37)
1980-83 Islanders - Potvin (#10), Bossy (#20), Trottier (#24), Smith (#39)
1983-90 Oilers - Gretzky (#1), Messier (#7), Kurri (#33)
Unofficial "Mini-Dynasties"
1923-25 Canadiens - None
1928-32 Canadiens - None
1934-37 Red Wings - None
1938-41 Bruins - None
1944-47 Canadiens - M. Richard (#3)
1961-65 Black Hawks - Hull (#31)
1970-78 Bruins - Orr (#13), Esposito (#29)
1974-76 Flyers - None
1991-96 Penguins - Lemieux (#11)
1995-03 Devils - Brodeur (#35t), Stevens (#35t), technically Doug Gilmour (#26)
1996-01 Avalanche - Roy (#2), Sakic (#12), Forsberg (#18)
1996-09 Red Wings - Lidstrom (#23), Fedorov (#34)
2007-17 Penguins - Crosby (#27t)
2009-17 Blackhawks - Keith (#38)
On None Of These Teams
Gilmour (#26), Boucher (#30), Pronger (#32), Foyston (#40)
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Excellent overview that provides insight into the composition of a championship team.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
My .02 (probably only worth a penny)
This is probably the "worst" HoH top 40 project done to date judging by the final rankigns. I've got my issues to one degree or another with the previous installments of the HoH but this list has some serious question marks IMHO.
The biggest problem I have with the entire project is it was started mid-season (of the just completed NHL campaign).
Why don't we use the off season for something like this? Say from June through September?
I'm sure some will bring up doing it during the season because people are more active, vs the summer when you have vacations popping up and such, but I don't really buy that argument. The die hard posters that log hundreds or thousands of posts every year aren't going MIA for weeks or months on end, especially considering most if not all are adults, with full time jobs. I'm sure some will be gone for a few days or a week for some vacation between Memorial day and Labor day, but by and large i think the regulars that comprise the voting blocks are still going to be active most days.
Most of this list was compiled in late winter, early spring 2017, before the season was completed and you have a player who had yet another significant postseason (Crosby winning a Cup and Conn Smythe) that would easily vault him up a number of spots from the 27th spot he finished at, not to mention his teammate (Malkin) had another Conn Smythe worthy run as well. I don't think Malkin would be in the top 25 or 30, but to not even get brought up in the last round of discussions for consideration seems wrong now. People were only going to view the list after the 2017 season was completed so why not allow the season to play out, simply to ensure you don't miss big happenings (namely Crosby going back to back with the CS's)
But to the list overall:
Personally, IMHO, Pat Roy is the greatest playoff/money hockey player ever.
No offense to Gretzky, his numbers are unreal across the board, but those Oilers teams were absolutely loaded. Not only with HOF talent (their were up to 6 HOF players on the 4 Cup winning teams that Gretzky played on) as well as very solid roles players. I've got zero issue with most people going Gretzky #1. There is nothing wrong with that sentiment, I just feel that Roy did as much on an individual level, with less talent around him (especially in Montreal) compared to the Oilers dynasty.
Roy led both Habs teams (85-86 and 92-93 neither of whom won their division) on amazing Cup runs. One only has to look at the sheer numbers or Adjusted Playoff Saves project and Playoff Save % vs Average Opponent Shooting % breakdown to see how dominant Roy really was. There is no one that would ever convince me either of those teams win a Cup without Roy playing out of his mind, especially considering the ridiculous scoring numbers being put up in the mid 80's and early 90's. Hell, even in a Cup loss in 89 he was unbelievably good. Absolutely Conn Smythe good.
Obviously he got a pair of Smythe wins there and another towards the end of his career with Colorado, making him the only 3 time winner in league history, despite plenty of superstars playing on teams that won the Cup 3 or more times since its introduction. And I think seeing Roy win multiple Cups and Smythe's across multiple eras is that much more impressive.
Doug Harvey has to be overrated right? He looks great with Cup counting and certainly is one of the 3-4 greatest Dmen ever to play but how much did he actually do to drive those absolutely loaded Habs teams during the postseason?
In 52-53? Tom Johnson produced as much offense (and had 2 goals to Harvey's 0) from the blue line and you had Boom Boom leading the team in scoring with 10 points. Now, I'm certain Harvey provided elite play in his own end, but how SIGNIFICANT was his performance on a HOF laden team?
53-54? Lost in Cup finals to Detroit and Harvey played at best average here and I'd wager below expectations. 2 assists in 10 games? 3 other D produced more.
55-56? Next Cup win for Montreal saw Beliveau dominate in one of the best Cup playoff performances to date in NHL history. It would certainly seem like Harvey was quite good, but how good?
56-57? Same thing this time Boom Boom with a very high end performance. Outscored the next closest player by 6 points and Harvey by 11 overall. Assuming Harvey was fantastic defensively, it still doesn't overcome a very significant run by Geoffrion. By Conn Smythe standards this is almost a guaranteed win for Bernie.
57-58? Hard to look past aging (36 years old) Maurice Richard's 11 goals in 10 games as the high mark for the Habs.
59-60? Gotta be Plante. Gave up 11 goals in 8 games. That's unreal, regardless of era.
I find it really hard to look at any of the Cup winning years as a definite Conn Smythe for Harvey. He was an integral part, no doubt, but those teams were absolutely stacked (as much as or more than any in history) and it's hard to say he went to another level relative to his peers and regular season play. Lots of Cups but doesn't scream like the 6th greatest playoff performer. Certainly not better than Messier.
Speaking of Messier. 6th? Not a chance. Needs to be top 5 (I have him 3rd). 6 Cups, well past expansion is as impressive as anyone from the 06 era, who had 7-10. Sure, he rode shotgun to Gretzky for the first 4 (where Messier was amazing as it was), but then showed he could take the reigns in 89-90, and once again in 94 with the Rangers. If it wasn't for Leetch going bonkers, Messier easily wins a Conn Smythe that year as well and you could have just as easily given it to him anyway.
2nd all time in playoff points.
4th all time in playoff PPG (really 3rd, nobody counts Pederson), despite having an extremely long career/number of games played.
2nd all time in multi point games in the postseason.
1st all time in career playoff short handed goals (14).
2nd all time in career playoff goals at ES (71) and goals overall (109).
6 Cups.
Conn Smythe in 90.
Scored double digit points in 14 straight years from 83-97 (with 7 times exceeding 20 points and 3 hitting 30 or more).
Flip Beliveau and Richard. Beliveau didn't have the luxury of starting his playoff career during WWII and JB's brilliance stretched a slightly longer arc in the postseason. At least IMHO.
Sakic is too high (Trottier was nearly as good IMO and how is Sakic 12th all time but his contemporary Yzerman left completely out of the top 40). Forsberg is too high as well. But this site overrates him considerably, at least on a ranking basis.
Crosby is way to low, but again, his place on this list was determined before his 3rd Cup and 2nd Smythe. Shame.
Would have liked to see more 60's Leafs players brought up for discussion a bit earlier like Horton especially as well as Keon.
Patty Kane should have been in the low to mid 30's. Not a huge deal, but he's got a hellova resume already amassed and some big time heroics as a playoff performer.
There are some other things you could nitpick but the above represents where I disagree with the list the most.
This is probably the "worst" HoH top 40 project done to date judging by the final rankigns. I've got my issues to one degree or another with the previous installments of the HoH but this list has some serious question marks IMHO.
The biggest problem I have with the entire project is it was started mid-season (of the just completed NHL campaign).
Why don't we use the off season for something like this? Say from June through September?
I'm sure some will bring up doing it during the season because people are more active, vs the summer when you have vacations popping up and such, but I don't really buy that argument. The die hard posters that log hundreds or thousands of posts every year aren't going MIA for weeks or months on end, especially considering most if not all are adults, with full time jobs. I'm sure some will be gone for a few days or a week for some vacation between Memorial day and Labor day, but by and large i think the regulars that comprise the voting blocks are still going to be active most days.
Most of this list was compiled in late winter, early spring 2017, before the season was completed and you have a player who had yet another significant postseason (Crosby winning a Cup and Conn Smythe) that would easily vault him up a number of spots from the 27th spot he finished at, not to mention his teammate (Malkin) had another Conn Smythe worthy run as well. I don't think Malkin would be in the top 25 or 30, but to not even get brought up in the last round of discussions for consideration seems wrong now. People were only going to view the list after the 2017 season was completed so why not allow the season to play out, simply to ensure you don't miss big happenings (namely Crosby going back to back with the CS's)
But to the list overall:
Personally, IMHO, Pat Roy is the greatest playoff/money hockey player ever.
No offense to Gretzky, his numbers are unreal across the board, but those Oilers teams were absolutely loaded. Not only with HOF talent (their were up to 6 HOF players on the 4 Cup winning teams that Gretzky played on) as well as very solid roles players. I've got zero issue with most people going Gretzky #1. There is nothing wrong with that sentiment, I just feel that Roy did as much on an individual level, with less talent around him (especially in Montreal) compared to the Oilers dynasty.
Roy led both Habs teams (85-86 and 92-93 neither of whom won their division) on amazing Cup runs. One only has to look at the sheer numbers or Adjusted Playoff Saves project and Playoff Save % vs Average Opponent Shooting % breakdown to see how dominant Roy really was. There is no one that would ever convince me either of those teams win a Cup without Roy playing out of his mind, especially considering the ridiculous scoring numbers being put up in the mid 80's and early 90's. Hell, even in a Cup loss in 89 he was unbelievably good. Absolutely Conn Smythe good.
Obviously he got a pair of Smythe wins there and another towards the end of his career with Colorado, making him the only 3 time winner in league history, despite plenty of superstars playing on teams that won the Cup 3 or more times since its introduction. And I think seeing Roy win multiple Cups and Smythe's across multiple eras is that much more impressive.
Doug Harvey has to be overrated right? He looks great with Cup counting and certainly is one of the 3-4 greatest Dmen ever to play but how much did he actually do to drive those absolutely loaded Habs teams during the postseason?
In 52-53? Tom Johnson produced as much offense (and had 2 goals to Harvey's 0) from the blue line and you had Boom Boom leading the team in scoring with 10 points. Now, I'm certain Harvey provided elite play in his own end, but how SIGNIFICANT was his performance on a HOF laden team?
53-54? Lost in Cup finals to Detroit and Harvey played at best average here and I'd wager below expectations. 2 assists in 10 games? 3 other D produced more.
55-56? Next Cup win for Montreal saw Beliveau dominate in one of the best Cup playoff performances to date in NHL history. It would certainly seem like Harvey was quite good, but how good?
56-57? Same thing this time Boom Boom with a very high end performance. Outscored the next closest player by 6 points and Harvey by 11 overall. Assuming Harvey was fantastic defensively, it still doesn't overcome a very significant run by Geoffrion. By Conn Smythe standards this is almost a guaranteed win for Bernie.
57-58? Hard to look past aging (36 years old) Maurice Richard's 11 goals in 10 games as the high mark for the Habs.
59-60? Gotta be Plante. Gave up 11 goals in 8 games. That's unreal, regardless of era.
I find it really hard to look at any of the Cup winning years as a definite Conn Smythe for Harvey. He was an integral part, no doubt, but those teams were absolutely stacked (as much as or more than any in history) and it's hard to say he went to another level relative to his peers and regular season play. Lots of Cups but doesn't scream like the 6th greatest playoff performer. Certainly not better than Messier.
Speaking of Messier. 6th? Not a chance. Needs to be top 5 (I have him 3rd). 6 Cups, well past expansion is as impressive as anyone from the 06 era, who had 7-10. Sure, he rode shotgun to Gretzky for the first 4 (where Messier was amazing as it was), but then showed he could take the reigns in 89-90, and once again in 94 with the Rangers. If it wasn't for Leetch going bonkers, Messier easily wins a Conn Smythe that year as well and you could have just as easily given it to him anyway.
2nd all time in playoff points.
4th all time in playoff PPG (really 3rd, nobody counts Pederson), despite having an extremely long career/number of games played.
2nd all time in multi point games in the postseason.
1st all time in career playoff short handed goals (14).
2nd all time in career playoff goals at ES (71) and goals overall (109).
6 Cups.
Conn Smythe in 90.
Scored double digit points in 14 straight years from 83-97 (with 7 times exceeding 20 points and 3 hitting 30 or more).
Flip Beliveau and Richard. Beliveau didn't have the luxury of starting his playoff career during WWII and JB's brilliance stretched a slightly longer arc in the postseason. At least IMHO.
Sakic is too high (Trottier was nearly as good IMO and how is Sakic 12th all time but his contemporary Yzerman left completely out of the top 40). Forsberg is too high as well. But this site overrates him considerably, at least on a ranking basis.
Crosby is way to low, but again, his place on this list was determined before his 3rd Cup and 2nd Smythe. Shame.
Would have liked to see more 60's Leafs players brought up for discussion a bit earlier like Horton especially as well as Keon.
Patty Kane should have been in the low to mid 30's. Not a huge deal, but he's got a hellova resume already amassed and some big time heroics as a playoff performer.
There are some other things you could nitpick but the above represents where I disagree with the list the most.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
We were specifically aiming to have more than just HOH regulars, hence the open ballot concept. The idea was to not have lists compiled by people who are strictly "die hard", but to cast as wide of a net as possible without abandoning the theme or essentially creating what is no better than a poll thread. I do not want to get into it more than that.
I don't think 7th is a bad spot for him. The only forwards to place above him were Gretzky, Richard, Beliveau, and Howe. He even landed above two of the big-four; this seems like a very high placement for him. I think this is the arena that separates him overall from the Clarke/Trottier crowd (and probably what elevates Sakic into that grouping).
An abridged argument from Vote 3. Ultimately, Bossy over Trottier was somewhat of a given, and Sakic/Forsberg compared very favorably to Bossy. It would probably not be an exaggeration to say that Joe Sakic is the greatest overtime player in history. Yzerman came up during Fedorov's candidacy, and the early-1990s were not necessarily disqualifying, but enough to not hold him up with these other forwards.
This is normal for active players. There is no way to remedy this unless hockey as a whole ends.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
The two major points I want to respond to:
Well of course he landed above the big 4.
He's quite a bit better than them when you look at ONLY postseason accolades and accomplishments. It seems to me that some people are allowing other aspects of career resumes sneak into their objectivity. Why does it seem high in regards to Messier? He might be in the 15-25 range all time OVERALL, but how can one look at his ridiculous peaks AND longevity as a postseason player and not have him even higher?
Even considering his first 4 Cups came with Gretzky leading the charge, it wasn't like he wasn't extremely impressive in his own right. And I don't believe that Messier and Gretzky played very much together at ES anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong please.
The biggest factor for me is that Messier did what Gretzky couldn't. Take over a team (without the other present) and lead them to championships. Messier did that brilliantly in Edmonton AND New York.
You can look at the raw numbers, adjusted numbers, per game totals, and overall sheer volume of work Messier has to his name and it should be incredibly difficult to put more than 2-3 people above him. IMHO.
The second part, in regards to the Crosby ranking is this:
Crosby would have absolutely ranked higher had the project started directly after the end of the hockey season. The results CAN be changed (for the better/more accuracy mind you) if they are done from June onward. That way you don't short change active players who are doing great things. So honestly I don't agree, that there is nothing that can be done, especially considering active players always seem to get short changed as it is.
Really surprised that adjusted PPGs are used period, let alone in applying them to the playoffs, to rate Bossy vs. Sakic/Forsberg. They seem to severely underrate Bossy's (and Trottier's) per game production.
Is Bossy not easily the best playoff performer for forwards between Guy LaFleur and Messier if Wayne (and Kurri) is removed from the equation?
From 79 to 85:
Bossy - 148 points, 80 goals, in 113 games, PPG of 1.31
Trottier - 133 points, 51 goals, in 116 games, PPG of 1.15
Next best PPGs in Top 20 - Messier 1.23, Anderson 1.22, Coffey 1.22
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...mesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,gamesPlayed
Last edited:
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Obviously haha
My point is this, which seems to have been "glossed over".
Why do these projects start late in the hockey season in the first place? The NHL doesn't award the Hart or Norris trophies for play from October to February do they?
If active players are already at a disadvantage (they are, we've all seen this time and time again here) then why not simply wait until June to start a project like this? The thing doesn't end until after the NHL season is completed, so when it does, and something like Crosby winning back to back Cups (and Conn Smythes) isn't included in the discussion, it only distorts the list, given the time of its completion.
A guy like Pat Kane benefits as his team got swept out of the playoffs as a 1 seed, in the 1st round, while players like Crosby and Malkin are at a disadvantage because they played, and played well through June.
I guess it just seems like these projects would be perfect for the summer months when we don't have hockey to occupy our time in the first place.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Active players are always doing great things; they're active. More than that, Crosby had played, what, 21 playoff games this year at the time he was voted on (jumping up from 38 on the aggregate list to 27 on the final list)?
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Well of course. That goes without saying haha.
With that being said I think there is a difference between voting on a guy who has a partial playoff run to his name and a guy who has actually completed the gauntlet 2 times in a row (first of cap era and first time in 19 years), with 2 playoff MVP's in a row (only 3rd player ever). Both of those occurrences are quite rare and ultimately significant to the debate.
Would Crosby not have come up in an earlier round of voting had this started a bit later? I think so and most others likely put his name up earlier as well.
