HOH Top 100 List & Voting Record: Hockey Outsider

[FissionFire]

List 10

Rank | Player | Pos
1| Wayne Gretzky |C
2| Gordie Howe |RW
3| Bobby Orr |D
4| Mario Lemieux |C
5| Jean Beliveau |C
6| Eddie Shore |D
7| Doug Harvey |D
8| Howie Morenz |C
9| Bobby Hull |LW
10| Maurice Richard |RW
11| Jacques Plante |G
12| Ray Bourque |D
13| Patrick Roy |G
14| Dominik Hasek |G
15| Guy Lafleur |RW
16| Stan Mikita |C
17| Bobby Clarke |C
18| Red Kelly |D
19| Ted Lindsay |LW
20| Denis Potvin |D
21| Glenn Hall |G
22| Bryan Trottier |C
23| Phil Esposito |C
24| Nicklas Lidstrom |D
25| Larry Robinson |D
26| Mark Messier |C
27| Jaromir Jagr |RW
28| Newsy Lalonde |C
29| Chris Chelios |D
30| Ken Dryden |G
31| Brad Park |D
32| Viacheslav Fetisov |D
33| Joe Sakic |C
34| Steve Yzerman |C
35| Mike Bossy |RW
36| Charlie Conacher |RW
37| Clint Benedict |G
38| Syl Apps, Sr. |C
39| Ted Kennedy |C
40| Valeri Kharlamov |LW
41| Terry Sawchuk |G
42| Paul Coffey |D
43| Milt Schmidt |C
44| Bernard Geoffrion |RW
45| Cyclone Taylor |C
46| Bill Durnan |G
47| King Clancy |D
48| Andy Bathgate |RW
49| Frank Boucher |C
50| Pierre Pilote |D
51| Martin Brodeur |G
52| Earl Seibert |D
53| Cy Denneny |LW
54| Frank Mahovlich |LW
55| Turk Broda |G
56| Johnny Bower |G
57| Bill Gadsby |D
58| Bill Cook |RW
59| Al MacInnis |D
60| Tim Horton |D
61| Frank Brimsek |G
62| Brett Hull |RW
63| Aurel Joliat |LW
64| Doug Bentley |LW
65| Max Bentley |C
66| Rod Langway |D
67| Marcel Dionne |C
68| Sergei Makarov |RW
69| Sergei Fedorov |C
70| Jari Kurri |RW
71| Dickie Moore |LW
72| Scott Stevens |D
73| Sprague Cleghorn |D
74| Borje Salming |D
75| Bernie Parent |G
76| Bill Cowley |C
77| Igor Larionov |C
78| Peter Forsberg |C
79| Johnny Bucyk |LW
80| Bill Boucher |RW
81| Brian Leetch |D
82| Billy Smith |G
83| Charlie Gardiner |G
84| Boris Mikhailov |RW
85| Sid Abel |C/LW
86| Yvan Cournoyer |RW
87| Peter Stastny |C
88| Dave Keon |C
89| Gump Worsley |G
90| Elmer Lach |C
91| Nels Stewart |C
92| Denis Savard |C
93| Guy Lapointe |D
94| Joe Malone |C
95| Ron Francis |C
96| George Hainsworth |G
97| Brendan Shanahan |LW
98| Lionel Conacher |D
99| Tony Esposito |G
100| Toe Blake |LW
101| Henri Richard |C
102| Valeri Vasiliev |D
103| Vladislav Tretiak |G
104| Chris Pronger |D
105| Scott Niedermayer |D
106| Doug Gilmour |C
107| Adam Oates |C
108| Jean Ratelle |C
109| Dale Hawerchuk |C
110| Black Jack Stewart |D
111| Ken Reardon |D
112| Marcel Pronovost |D
113| Gilbert Perreault |C
114| Dit Clapper |RW/D
115| Mark Howe |D
116| Bill Quackenbush |D
117| Alex Delvecchio |C/LW
118| Frank Nighbor |C
119| Moose Johnson |D
120| Norm Ullman |C

Players from the Top 100 not to appear on this list:
Anatoli Firsov (84)
Busher Jackson (89)
Serge Savard (98)

Players ranked highest overall on this list:
Clint Benedict (37)
Bill Gadsby (57)
Doug Bentley (64)

Players ranked lowest overall on this list:
Terry Sawchuk (41)
Henri Richard (101)
Dit Clapper (114)

Players unique to this list:
Bill Boucher (80)

Voting By Round

Round | Rank 1 | Rank 2 | Rank 3 | Rank 4 | Rank 5 | Rank 6 | Rank 7
1|Wayne Gretzky|Gordie Howe|Bobby Orr|Mario Lemieux
2|Eddie Shore|Doug Harvey|Jean Beliveau|Bobby Hull|Howie Morenz|Maurice Richard
3|Ray Bourque|Jacques Plante|Dominik Hasek|Patrick Roy|Stan Mikita
4|Patrick Roy|Red Kelly|Glenn Hall|Denis Potvin|Bobby Clarke
5|Glenn Hall|Bobby Clarke|Ted Lindsay|Nicklas Lidstrom|Bryan Trottier
6|Bryan Trottier|Newsy Lalonde|Nicklas Lidstrom|Milt Schmidt|Valeri Kharlamov
7|Chris Chelios|Viacheslav Fetisov|Larry Robinson|Joe Sakic|Milt Schmidt
8|Steve Yzerman|Syl Apps, Sr.|Chris Chelios|Brad Park|Ken Dryden
9|Cyclone Taylor|Chris Chelios|Bill Cook|Bill Durnan|Charlie Conacher
10|Joe Malone|Pierre Pilote|Max Bentley|Paul Coffey|Frank Mahovlich
11|Vladislav Tretiak|Pierre Pilote|King Clancy|Dit Clapper|Turk Broda
12|Frank Boucher|Andy Bathgate|Cy Denneny|Al MacInnis|Turk Broda
13|Clint Benedict|Earl Seibert|Ted Kennedy|Johnny Bower|Al MacInnis|Cy Denneny|Peter Forsberg
14|Boris Mikhailov|Ted Kennedy|Johnny Bower|Frank Brimsek|Sprague Cleghorn|Aurel Joliat|Elmer Lach
15|Sergei Makarov|Johnny Bower|Elmer Lach|Scott Stevens|Brian Leetch|Toe Blake|Sergei Fedorov
16|Bill Gadsby|Anatoli Firsov|Brian Leetch|Scott Stevens|Sid Abel|Borje Salming
17|Norm Ullman|Sid Abel|Brian Leetch|Scott Stevens|Alex Delvecchio|Ron Francis
18|Frank Nighbor|Valeri Vasiliev|Brian Leetch|Norm Ullman|Alex Delvecchio|Yvan Cournoyer

Click to read more...

 

[MXD]

A few comments...

1 : I thought I had Clapper low. Glad to see that it wasn't THAT low after all.

2 : Looks like you had a MAJOR change of heart concering Joe Malone...

 

[reckoning]

Seems to be a very solid list. No real surprises as he presented his case for several players during the weekly discussions. Most of the players who seem a little too high here (i.e. Cournoyer) didn't get much voting support from him, so it seems like he changed his mind on them.

I guess I'm most curious about: would you still rate Denis Savard ahead of the 4 centres you had at #106-109?

 

[FissionFire]

One thing that really stood out to me is that he embraced the open-mindedness of the project. He flipped his rankings on a couple players from one vote to the next (Stevens/Leetch and Leetch/Ullman and Leetch/Abel to name a few.)

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Looks like you had a change of heart with a lot of the old-timers, moving Taylor, Malone, and Nighbor up from where you had them. I think a lot of other people sold them short on their original lists as well, but they were usually voted in quickly once arguments could be made.

I was surprised to see the Rocket down at #10 and Ted Kennedy as high as #39. Seems to me that Kennedy would receive such a high ranking based on his playoff performances. Yet Richard, arguably the best playoff performer ever, is lower than he'd be on most lists. Or did you place Kennedy where you did based on something else? (My appologies if you went over this in the voting thread and I missed/forgot it)

 

[FissionFire]

Henri Richard at 101 was interesting. Granted, I wouldn't move him up more than maybe 10-20 spots from there but I didn't think anyone was as low on him as I am.

 

[God Bless Canada]

One of the lists that I was definitely waiting to see. (Along with pappy and pit). I don't always agree with HO or his approach, but I respect intelligence and insight.

Two guys I think were too low (way too low) were Richard and Clapper. Richard was such a brilliant two-way player. Made my comments known about him many times.

Clapper was also a brilliant two-way player, which served him well when he made the move from forward to defence. I think he's one of the most underrated guys around these parts. Six times an all-star - four on D, two at RW. Those two RW births came when Cook and Conacher were his competition. You have earned my respect, HO, but Niedermayer ahead of Clapper? Not a chance.

Jackson's the only glaring omission from this list. Will HO concede an "oops" with Busher like others have who snubbed him.

I'm surprised that Gadsby's rating was highest here and not with pappy.

I'm not surprised by Morenz's place. (Nor am I surprised by a stupid comment from Koivu). HO campaigned quite intensely for Morenz to be in the top 10. One of the few times I changed my mind in Vote 2.

Will Billy Boucher and his incredible accomplishments make a return to next year's list. (I had Billy/Buck near the tail end of my list. Those 40 points might have cost Georges "Billy Buck" Boucher a shot at consideration for Vote 2).

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Will Billy Boucher and his incredible accomplishments make a return to next year's list. (I had Billy/Buck near the tail end of my list. Those 40 points might have cost Georges "Billy Buck" Boucher a shot at consideration for Vote 2).

Billy Boucher and Georges "Buck" Boucher are two different players. I saw HO mention in another thread that he meant to list Georges, rather than Billy, at spot #80. Billy was a good scoring winger, but clearly defenseman Georges was the superior player, and worthy of top 100 consideration.

 

[FissionFire]

Just so HO doesn't feel that his Boucher mixup cost Georges a shot at being voted on, at he listed it correctly and I applied those 41 points to Georges he's have only moved up 132nd to 124th on the list, still outside the top 109 who were eligible for voting.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

One thing that really stood out to me is that he embraced the open-mindedness of the project. He flipped his rankings on a couple players from one vote to the next (Stevens/Leetch and Leetch/Ullman and Leetch/Abel to name a few.)

That's a great compliment. I'm stubborn when I think I'm right, but I can (usually) admit when I'm wrong. (Then again, maybe this just means that I'm indecisive).

I guess I'm most curious about: would you still rate Denis Savard ahead of the 4 centres you had at #106-109?

I'm almost positive I meant Serge (not Denis) at #92. Omitting the great Canadien would have been a big mistake, and I remember I wanted to rank S. Savard and Lapointe (who I had ranked #93) next to each other.

Will Billy Boucher and his incredible accomplishments make a return to next year's list. (I had Billy/Buck near the tail end of my list. Those 40 points might have cost Georges "Billy Buck" Boucher a shot at consideration for Vote 2).

I'll quote myself from another thread: "What a stupid mistake. I meant to vote for Buck Boucher, the outstanding offensive defenseman from the Senators dynasty. For some reason I thought his real name was Bill (it's actually Georges). Billy Boucher was a decent player but now he has more votes than Ching Johnson, Roy Conacher, etc. Sorry guys".

Jackson's the only glaring omission from this list. Will HO concede an "oops" with Busher like others have who snubbed him.

Yes, Jackson was a careless omission. He'll definitely be on my list next time.

I've argued against Richard quite a bit. I'm still not convinced that he was the amazing playoff performer that he's often made out to be. I think the argument relies too much on "counting Cups" and not enough on proving that Richard was more than a secondary player. I've always felt that Richard was similar to Lach, Cournoyer and Savard -- excellent secondary players on elite teams. They were all ranked between 86 and 101 on my list, so, if nothing else, at least I've been consistent. Anyway, I'm sure we'll revisit this discussion for the next list.

I'm really not sure what I was thinking re Clapper. According to my rough notes I penalized Clapper for spending too much of his prime during WW2 (factually incorrect) and not being a great forward (he certainly wasn't an elite forward, but I penalized him far too heavily here). I'll probably have Clapper around 60th next time.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Looks like you had a change of heart with a lot of the old-timers, moving Taylor, Malone, and Nighbor up from where you had them. I think a lot of other people sold them short on their original lists as well, but they were usually voted in quickly once arguments could be made.

I had Nighbor at #45 on my list so that wasn't a huge jump. I definitely underestimated how great Malone and Nighbor were in the NHA - that, combined with taking the "lack of competition" much too far, made me revise their rankings.

I was surprised to see the Rocket down at #10 and Ted Kennedy as high as #39. Seems to me that Kennedy would receive such a high ranking based on his playoff performances. Yet Richard, arguably the best playoff performer ever, is lower than he'd be on most lists. Or did you place Kennedy where you did based on something else? (My appologies if you went over this in the voting thread and I missed/forgot it)

It pains me to say this as a Habs fan, but Rocket Richard is (slightly) overrated. His legend as French Canadian icon has caused some people to overrate his legacy as a player.

I've consistently been skeptical of the war years; Richard scored 18 goals and 25 points in just 15 games against glorified minor league opponents in 1944 and 1945. Omitting that, his playoff reputation looks a lot less impressive -- Richard falls to just 64 playoff goals (still impressive, but not stunning) and only 0.86 ppg (basically "star player" for his era but, again, not legendary). Beliveau and Geoffrion routinely outscored Richard when they played together in the playoffs. What's really confusing is that Richard gets the reputation as the "ultimate playoff performer" despite the fact that his peer, Gordie Howe, was clearly better. Despite generally playing on weaker teams, Mr. Hockey scored far more points and points per game. He even scored more playoff goals than Richard ignoring the war years. Howe's greatest, and most forgotten accomplishment, was leading the playoffs in scoring more than any other player than history (four more times than Richard!) and somehow Richard has the better playoff reputation. I know Richard was intense and wanted to win, but I think that these features are more than offset by Howe's consistently better on-ice production.

I had Kennedy too high though I'd still have him in the top fifty. Here was my case for Kennedy.

More random thoughts:
- Generally I'm quite happy with this list up to about #65 but it goes downhill from there.
- Based on my discussions, Bill Cook should clearly be above Charlie Conacher. Cook could jump as much as 20 spots next time and Conacher will drop a few.
- I had Langway too high (will probably drop 20) though I think his lack of playoff success is overstated and his incredible peak (runner up to Gretzky for the Hart) is underrated.
- I underrated Makarov and (especially) Tretiak. Nedomansky was one of my last cuts to reach 120, I will re-consider him for next time.
- Generally I think I overrated modern players on the second half of the list (Fedorov, Stevens, Niedermayer, Leetch) though I also underrated a few (Forsberg, Francis).
- A bunch of players from 75-100 were in my "tough to assess" zone (Bucyk due to difficulty in determining just how important Orr was to his late-career revival, Hainsworth due to having one spectacular year in the fluky, ultra-defensive '29 season but rarely shining after that, Gardiner due his stunning peak but tragic, early death, Parent due to really only being above average for 3 years).
- After their great 2007-08 seasons, I'll bump up Brodeur several spots (past Durnan). I'm considering putting Lidstrom above Potvin.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Suprised by:

Beliveau 5th (too high)

Hull 9th (too low)

Chelios 29th (too high)

Bossy 35th (too low)

Langway 66th (too high, but I like it)

Dionne 67th (too low)

Clapper 114th (too low)

Good to see Guy Lapointe at 93.

I'd be most interested on your views on Chelios & Bossy.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Beliveau 5th (too high)
Hull 9th (too low)

Spots 5-10 are virtually interchangeable; I re-shuffled them over a dozen times. I re-considered Beliveau vs Hull due Pappyline's posts and I still think that Hull was better in the regular season and Beliveau was better in the playoffs.

Chelios 29th (too high)

I think that Chelios is starting to suffer from Gordie Howe Syndrome -- he played for such a long time past his prime that we're forgetting how dominant he was. Chelios was nearly as good as Lidstrom and Bourque during his prime-- multiple Conn Smythe calibre playoffs, phenomenal defense, great rushing ability and a vicious mean streak. Opponents simply did not score when Chelios was on the ice.

In fact, I like Chelios because, in his prime, he combined "early" Stevens (offense and recklessness) with "late" Stevens (shutdown ability, mean streak, and playoff success). I ranked him 9th among defensemen; next time he'll be 10th behind Fetisov.

Bossy 35th (too low)

I have nothing bad to say about Bossy, but I'm comfortable saying that every forward I listed above him is superior (plus, upon revision, Kharlamov and possibly Cook).

I know that few people rank Sakic higher, but he was a much better defensive player, proved he could dominate on both expansion and near-dynasty calibre teams, and was only slightly weaker in the playoffs. I realize that Bossy's injury wasn't his "fault", but Sakic has been elite from 1990 to 2007.

Dionne 67th (too low)

I had a tough time rating Dionne. I did an in-depth analysis of his playoff record a few months ago and concluded that his reputation as playoff fader is justified. His combo of fading in the playoffs, and being quite one-dimensional is a big knock against him. I realize he was a stunning offensive player but nobody else ranked higher than him has these two black marks against them.