HOF Monitor Points through Four Seasons

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

The reason I'm asking is because if Pnep's system is based on educated guesses/eyeballing the numbers (there's nothing wrong with that, of course), I'd like to try to develop a purely statistical regression model. I think I can do it, but I don't want to waste my time if Pnep has already beat me to it.

Would be tough to go pure statistical, I reckon. There are facts that have been brought up in other threads, such as no 2-time Hart winner has ever been denied. Seems like you have to value it pretty highly. Cup wins are also valued highly, but I would have to imagine that there are players with lots of Cups who might not get many points in other categories... and probably aren't considered HOF players (4th line players through "dynasties", etc. And should Cup wins be weighted differently for having played in a 6 team league vs 30?

Also, at some point you'll have to "eyeball" subjective points such as how many points to give for winning an award vs being in the final 3 candidates. Is a one-time winner better than a guy who was a final ballot candidate in 3 seasons? 4?

Dunno. Seems like an uphill battle.

 

[Big Phil]

Craig Janney - 73
Jari Kurri - 70
Pavel Bure - 66

Wow you are right, I didnt really put the effort into it, it was just rather off the top of my head, although I should have thought of Kurri. But Janney of all people, wow!

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

1960 is somewhat arbitrary without a historic basis - 1967 as an example when the league expanded.

Ted Kennedy is pre 1960. Taking away from your point.

"Today's standards" was referring to criteria used to induct players nowadays, not a commentary on when the player played (1960 was completely arbitrary. There aren't many players - non-goalie - if I recall correctly, inducted from the 40s/50s with really low numbers of games played. Understandably, there are tonnes from the shorter 20s/30s seasons). I can't very well go back to the 1960s and vote for a player's induction now, can I.

But not you have me wondering how well the HF Monitor points do at predicting that a lot of the guys from the 20s/30s, even 40s, would get in, given their "pts/2" portions, etc might suffer if number of games played isn't compensated for. And retro-awards like the Art Ross and stuff are fine, but I have to dig back and find out how people are getting retros (or not) for voted awards like Hart, Selke, Conn Smythe, etc. Not that we have to "predict" those players... we already know they're in the HOF. But still.

 

[pnep]

given their "pts/2" portions, etc might suffer if number of games played isn't compensated for.

Adjusted PTS/2 and
Adjusted PO PTS

 

[pnep]

Is a one-time winner better than a guy who was a final ballot candidate in 3 seasons? 4?

again...

Hart Runner Up - "HHOF Monitor" 100 pts

Vezina Runner Up - "HHOF Monitor" 75 pts (seasons 1917-81); "HHOF Monitor" 125 pts (seasons 1981-06) +

NORRIS Runner UP - "HHOF Monitor" 125 pts

 

[Canadiens1958]

Criteria

"Today's standards" was referring to criteria used to induct players nowadays, not a commentary on when the player played (1960 was completely arbitrary. There aren't many players - non-goalie - if I recall correctly, inducted from the 40s/50s with really low numbers of games played. Understandably, there are tonnes from the shorter 20s/30s seasons). I can't very well go back to the 1960s and vote for a player's induction now, can I.

But not you have me wondering how well the HF Monitor points do at predicting that a lot of the guys from the 20s/30s, even 40s, would get in, given their "pts/2" portions, etc might suffer if number of games played isn't compensated for. And retro-awards like the Art Ross and stuff are fine, but I have to dig back and find out how people are getting retros (or not) for voted awards like Hart, Selke, Conn Smythe, etc. Not that we have to "predict" those players... we already know they're in the HOF. But still.

I do not agree with the word predict to describe the HOF Monitor points developed by PNEP. The HOF MONITOR Points try to provide a picture as to why the honoured members were inducted to the HHOF and as such may be used to see the progression of an active players career or as a summation of the career of a recently retired player.

Regardless there is not and never was any hard and fast criteria that obligated the HHOF voters to induct once certain standards were attained.

 

[pnep]

Pnep, thanks for the data.

General question about the HOF Points system -- when you assign points to different awards/stats, how do you determine the values (ie 150 points for a Hart, 100 for Conn Smythe, etc)? Is there a calculation (some type of regression analysis maybe?)

Since this is a predictive system, have you tested the results (ie perhaps 95% of eligible players with a score above XX are actually in the Hall, then maybe there's a borderline category with 50% of players between YY and ZZ points in the Hall?)

example:

Hart

Players with Hart - 55 (active players include)
HHOF-er - 52
Not in HHOF - 3 (Al Rollins, Tom Anderson, Jose Theodore; + Martin St. Louis ?)
Seasons - 91

Hart PTS = ("% Hart Winners in HHOF" * Seasons) / "Players with Hart" = (94.55 * 91) / 55 = ~156 PTS

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

examle:

Hart

Players with Hart - 55 (active players include)
HHOF-er - 52
Not in HHOF - 3 (Al Rollins, Tom Anderson, Jose Theodore; + Martin St. Louis ?)
Seasons - 91

Hart PTS = ("% Hart Winners in HHOF" * Seasons) / "Players with Hart" = (94,55 * 91) / 55 = ~156 PTS

Nice. Simple enough and effective.

I still have to go back and see how this was applied to things like the LBP and its short history (more indicative of the "best player" in the league... "outstanding" vs "most valuable" player. Retro-awarded? Points only available to those who played since its addition? I have free time this afternoon, and am a former chemistry/physics graduate, so I enjoy exploring the odd cleverly constructed formula). I don't think I caught the HOF monitor points thread the first time around.

 

[pnep]

But not you have me wondering how well the HF Monitor points do at predicting that a lot of the guys from the 20s/30s, even 40s, would get in, given their "pts/2" portions, etc might suffer if number of games played isn't compensated for.

NHL-ers Retired Before 1946-47 Season

​

Player	First NHL Season	Last NHL Season	CAR. POS	HHOF?	"HHOF Monitor" PTS
Eddie "The Edmonton Express" Shore	1926-27	1939-40	D	1947	3506.80
Howie "The Stratford Streak" Morenz	1923-24	1936-37	C	1945	2612.00
Clint "Praying Bennie" Benedict	1917-18	1929-30	G	1965	2468.00
Cy "The Cornwall Colt" Denneny	1917-18	1928-29	LW	1959	2405.00
Frank "The Flying Dutchman" Nighbor	1917-18	1929-30	C	1947	2247.00
Frank "Raffles" Boucher	1921-22	1943-44	C	1958	2176.00
Bill Cook	1926-27	1936-37	RW	1952	2141.50
Francis "King" Clancy	1921-22	1936-37	D	1958	2134.35
Georges "Buck" Boucher	1917-18	1931-32	D	1960	2097.40
Charlie "Big Blue Bomber" Conacher	1929-30	1940-41	RW	1961	1983.40
Nels "Old Poison" Stewart	1925-26	1939-40	C	1962	1966.50
Georges "The Chicoutimi Cucumber" Vezina	1917-18	1925-26	G	1945	1946.00
Cecil "Tiny" Thompson	1928-29	1939-40	G	1959	1898.00
Aurel "The Mighty Atom" Joliat	1922-23	1937-38	LW	1947	1852.50
Sprague "The Big Train" Cleghorn	1918-19	1927-28	D	1958	1830.90
Cecil "Babe" Dye	1919-20	1930-31	RW	1970	1780.00
Earl "SI" Seibert	1931-32	1945-46	D	1963	1602.95
George "Little George" Hainsworth	1926-27	1936-37	G	1961	1579.50
Eduard "Newsy" Lalonde	1917-18	1926-27	C	1950	1488.50
Harvey "Busher" Jackson	1929-30	1943-44	LW	1971	1436.50
Ebbie "Poker Face" Goodfellow	1929-30	1942-43	D	1963	1382.25
David "Sweeney" Schriner	1934-35	1945-46	LW	1962	1337.50
Harry "Cammie" Cameron	1917-18	1922-23	D	1962	1317.85
Gordie "Lefty" Drillon	1936-37	1942-43	RW	1975	1254.00
Sylvio Mantha	1923-24	1936-37	D	1960	1249.55
Harry "Punch" Broadbent	1918-19	1928-29	RW	1962	1223.00
Alec "The Ottawa Fireman" Connell	1924-25	1936-37	G	1958	1213.00
Chuck "Wandering Scotsman" Gardiner	1927-28	1933-34	G	1945	1203.00
Reg "Old Sarge" Noble	1917-18	1932-33	LW	1962	1192.85
Albert "Babe" Siebert	1925-26	1938-39	LW	1964	1167.25
Reginald "Hooley" Smith	1924-25	1940-41	C	1972	1164.00
Joe "Phantom" Malone	1917-18	1923-24	C	1950	1162.50
Marty "Goal-a-Game" Barry	1927-28	1939-40	C	1965	1147.00
Lionel "Connie The Clutch" Conacher	1925-26	1936-37	D	1994	1136.80
Syd Howe	1929-30	1945-46	C	1965	1081.00
Paul Thompson	1926-27	1938-39	LW		1002.00
Dave "Davey" Kerr	1930-31	1940-41	G		977.50
Ralph "Cooney" Weiland	1928-29	1938-39	C	1971	962.00
Frank "Flash" Hollett	1933-34	1945-46	D		945.80
Ace I. "Major Hoople Of Bracebridge" Bailey	1926-27	1933-34	RW	1975	883.50
Billy "Yonkers Billy" Burch	1922-23	1932-33	C	1974	878.00
Ceece "Two Gun" Dillon	1930-31	1939-40	RW		855.50
Herb Cain	1933-34	1945-46	LW		843.00
Lynn Patrick	1934-35	1945-46	LW	1980	816.00
Joe "Gentleman Joe" Primeau	1927-28	1935-36	C	1963	808.00
Roy "Shrimp" Worters	1925-26	1936-37	G	1969	808.00
Ching "The Holding Corporation" Johnson	1926-27	1937-38	D	1958	780.55
Frederick "Bun" Cook	1926-27	1936-37	LW	1995	771.50
Art Coulter	1931-32	1941-42	D	1974	762.80
Lorne "Chabotsky" Chabot	1926-27	1936-37	G		746.50
John "Little Napolean" Roach	1921-22	1934-35	G		736.00
Frank "The Slumbering Romeo" Finnigan	1923-24	1936-37	RW		735.50
Clarence "Hap" Day	1924-25	1937-38	D	1961	729.35
Billy Boucher	1921-22	1927-28	RW		715.50
Lorne Carr	1933-34	1945-46	RW		715.50
Johnny Gottselig	1928-29	1944-45	LW		713.50
Jack Darragh *	1917-18	1923-24	RW	1962	708.00
Herbie "The Duke Of Duluth" Lewis	1928-29	1938-39	LW	1989	542.00
Red "The Big Bad Wolf" Horner	1928-29	1939-40	D	1965	523.90
Wilf "Shorty" Green	1923-24	1926-27	RW	1962	109.00

* + played 7 NHA seasons​

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Cool. Pretty successful formula then, it would seem.

edit: looking at the bottom of that table, is there anything that stands out as a key difference when comparing those guys with 5/700 point who are in vs the guys with 8/900 points who aren't? I assume your spreadsheet shows you the individual elements (or what is lacking) as well as the final monitor points.

 

[pnep]

Nice. Simple enough and effective.

I still have to go back and see how this was applied to things like the LBP and its short history (more indicative of the "best player" in the league... "outstanding" vs "most valuable" player. Retro-awarded? Points only available to those who played since its addition? I have free time this afternoon, and am a former chemistry/physics graduate, so I enjoy exploring the odd cleverly constructed formula). I don't think I caught the HOF monitor points thread the first time around.

LBP?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

LBP?

Lester B. Pearson (most "outstanding" player, as voted by the players rather than sports writers, etc.). Awarded since early 70s, I believe. Pronger and Theodore, according to memory, won the Hart trophy as most valuable player, but didn't win the LBP as the most outstanding player of those seasons.

 

[pnep]

edit: looking at the bottom of that table, is there anything that stands out as a key difference when comparing those guys with 5/700 point who are in vs the guys with 8/900 points who aren't? I assume your spreadsheet shows you the individual elements (or what is lacking) as well as the final monitor points.

Player | Thompson | Kerr | Weiland | Hollett | Bailey | Burch | Dillon | Cain | Patrick | Primeau | Worters | Johnson | Cook | Coulter | Day | Darragh | Lewis | Horner POS | LW | G | C | D | RW | C | RW | LW | LW | C | G | D | LW | D | D | RW | LW | D Capt. | | | 1 | 3 | | 7 | | | | | | | | 5 | 10 | 2 | 1 | 2 Adj. Games | 1034 | 665 | 887 | 946 | 567 | 807 | 778 | 961 | 771 | 544 | 816 | 770 | 841 | 794 | 1071 | 436 | 844 | 852 Top 10, Goals | 4 | | 2 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 6 | 4 | 2 | 0 | | 0 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 0 #1, GOALS | | | 1 | | 1 | | | | 1 | | | | | | | | | #2, GOALS | | | | | | 1 | 1 | 2 | | | | | | | | | | Adj. PTS/Adj. Wins | 708 | 319 | 678 | 456 | 495 | 506 | 561 | 566 | 520 | 556 | 294 | 208 | 707 | 195 | 538 | 266 | 622 | 310 Top 10, PTS | 4 | | 3 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 3 | | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 0 #1, PTS | | | 1 | | 1 | | | 1 | | | | | | | | | | #2, PTS | 1 | | | | | | | | 2 | 2 | | | | | | | | Adj. PO GMS | 118 | 91 | 105 | 163 | 50 | 5 | 100 | 142 | 96 | 90 | 28 | 151 | 113 | 108 | 129 | 69 | 93 | 163 Adj. PO PTS/Adj. PO Wins | 70 | 42 | 62 | 59 | 26 | 0 | 59 | 50 | 35 | 71 | 9 | 21 | 48 | 22 | 33 | 25 | 61 | 44 CUP | 3 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 1 | | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 1 FINAL | 1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | | 2 | 2 | 1 | 3 | | 3 | 2 | 1 | 3 | | 1 | 6 HART | | | | | | 1 | | | | | 1 | | | | | | | HART RU | 1 | | | | 1 | | | | | | 1 | 1 | | | | | | BYNG | | | | | | 2 | | | | 1 | | | | | | | | VEZINA | | 1 | | | | | | | | | 1 | | | | | | | VEZINA RU | | 3 | | | | | | | | | 1 | | | | | | | 1 ALL STAR | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | | 1 | | 1 | | | 2 | | | | 2 | | 2 ALL STAR | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 1 | | | CALDER | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | | | CALDER RU | | | | | 1 | 1 | | | | | | | | | | | | CONN SMYTHE | | | | | | | 1 | | | | | | | | | 2 | | NORRIS | | | | 1 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | NORRIS RU | | | | 1 | | | | | | | | | | 1 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | HHOF? | | | 1971 | | 1975 | 1974 | | | 1980 | 1963 | 1969 | 1958 | 1995 | 1974 | 1961 | 1962 | 1989 | 1965 "HHOF Monitor" PTS | 1002.00 | 977.50 | 962.00 | 945.80 | 883.50 | 878.00 | 855.50 | 843.00 | 816.00 | 808.00 | 808.00 | 780.55 | 771.50 | 762.80 | 729.35 | 708.00 | 542.00 | 523.90

 

[pnep]

Lester B. Pearson (most "outstanding" player, as voted by the players rather than sports writers, etc.). Awarded since early 70s, I believe. Pronger and Theodore, according to memory, won the Hart trophy as most valuable player, but didn't win the LBP as the most outstanding player of those seasons.

Pearson not used in "HHOF Monitor" PTS.

 

[pnep]

By 1917 Lalonde was already an established star with a decade of pro hockey behind him so his inclusion on the list might not be appropriate.

Durnan stepped into the NHL at the top of his game, an experienced 27-year-old rookie when he signed with the Habs who probably would have gone with a teenaged Gerry McNeil if he hadn't

"HHOF Monitor" PTS First 4 NHL Seasons
(without players who started pro career in NHA, PCHA, WCHL/WHL)

Player|POS|Seasons|NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
Wayne "The Great One" Gretzky |C|1979-83|2172.00
Terry "Ukey" Sawchuk |G|1949-54|1515.50
Bill "The Mirror Man" Durnan |G|1943-47|1442.00
Alexander "Ovie" Ovechkin |LW|2005-09|~1420
Jean "Le Gros Bill" Beliveau |C|1950-57|1384.50
Bobby "Number Four" Orr |D|1966-70|1359.40
Ken "Octopus" Dryden |G|1970-76|1326.00
Frank "Mr. Zero" Brimsek |G|1938-42|1250.00
Mario "The Magnificent" Lemieux |C|1984-88|1186.00
Tony "Tony O" Esposito |G|1968-73|1109.50
Evgeni "Gino" Malkin |C|2006-09|~1100
Cecil "Babe" Dye |RW|1919-23|1047.50
Nels "Old Poison" Stewart |C|1925-29|1018.00
Cecil "Tiny" Thompson |G|1928-32|964.50
Jacques "Jake The Snake" Plante |G|1952-57|961.00
Bryan "Trots" Trottier |C|1975-79|953.00
C.J. Syl "Slippery Syl" Apps |D|1936-40|920.00
Brett "The Golden Brett" Hull |RW|1985-91|918.00
Gordie "Lefty" Drillon |RW|1936-40|906.00
Mike "The Boss" Bossy |RW|1977-81|897.00
Alec "The Ottawa Fireman" Connell |G|1924-28|854.50
Sidney "Sid The Kid" Crosby |C|2005-09|~820
Bernie "Boom-Boom" Geoffrion |RW|1950-55|802.50
Maurice "The Rocket" Richard |RW|1942-46|782.00
Glenn "Mr. Goalie" Hall |G|1952-59|779.00
Denis "Baby Bear" Potvin |D|1973-77|777.05
Howie "The Stratford Streak" Morenz |C|1923-27|769.50
Billy Boucher |RW|1921-25|742.00
Douglas "Brad" Park |D|1968-72|718.65
Dave Keon |C|1960-64|717.00
Jacques "Lappy" Laperriere |D|1962-67|716.90
Bobby Bauer |RW|1935-41|688.00
Ed "The Eagle" Belfour |G|1988-94|687.00
David "Sweeney" Schriner|LW|1934-38|685.00
Bobby "The Golden Jet" Hull |LW|1957-61|680.00
Eric "Big E" Lindros |C|1992-96|666.00

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Cool. Pretty successful formula then, it would seem.

edit: looking at the bottom of that table, is there anything that stands out as a key difference when comparing those guys with 5/700 point who are in vs the guys with 8/900 points who aren't? I assume your spreadsheet shows you the individual elements (or what is lacking) as well as the final monitor points.

Lets see....

Hap Day: Proved his worth coaching, that gave him a boost.
Jack Darragh: Would be higher if NHA was included.
Herbie Lewis: Puzzling Hall of Famer if there ever was one.
Red Horner: Better than a lot of indicators credit. But, should not be in the Hall...
Shorty Green: Is in for being the first player to stand up for a player's union, or something like that.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Chronological Order

NHL-ers Retired Before 1946-47 Season

Player | First NHL Season | Last NHL Season | CAR. POS | HHOF? | "HHOF Monitor" PTS Eddie "The Edmonton Express" Shore | 1926-27 | 1939-40 | D | 1947 | 3506.80 Howie "The Stratford Streak" Morenz | 1923-24 | 1936-37 | C | 1945 | 2612.00 Clint "Praying Bennie" Benedict | 1917-18 | 1929-30 | G | 1965 | 2468.00 Cy "The Cornwall Colt" Denneny | 1917-18 | 1928-29 | LW | 1959 | 2405.00 Frank "The Flying Dutchman" Nighbor | 1917-18 | 1929-30 | C | 1947 | 2247.00 Frank "Raffles" Boucher | 1921-22 | 1943-44 | C | 1958 | 2176.00 Bill Cook | 1926-27 | 1936-37 | RW | 1952 | 2141.50 Francis "King" Clancy | 1921-22 | 1936-37 | D | 1958 | 2134.35 Georges "Buck" Boucher | 1917-18 | 1931-32 | D | 1960 | 2097.40 Charlie "Big Blue Bomber" Conacher | 1929-30 | 1940-41 | RW | 1961 | 1983.40 Nels "Old Poison" Stewart | 1925-26 | 1939-40 | C | 1962 | 1966.50 Georges "The Chicoutimi Cucumber" Vezina | 1917-18 | 1925-26 | G | 1945 | 1946.00 Cecil "Tiny" Thompson | 1928-29 | 1939-40 | G | 1959 | 1898.00 Aurel "The Mighty Atom" Joliat | 1922-23 | 1937-38 | LW | 1947 | 1852.50 Sprague "The Big Train" Cleghorn | 1918-19 | 1927-28 | D | 1958 | 1830.90 Cecil "Babe" Dye | 1919-20 | 1930-31 | RW | 1970 | 1780.00 Earl "SI" Seibert | 1931-32 | 1945-46 | D | 1963 | 1602.95 George "Little George" Hainsworth | 1926-27 | 1936-37 | G | 1961 | 1579.50 Eduard "Newsy" Lalonde | 1917-18 | 1926-27 | C | 1950 | 1488.50 Harvey "Busher" Jackson | 1929-30 | 1943-44 | LW | 1971 | 1436.50 Ebbie "Poker Face" Goodfellow | 1929-30 | 1942-43 | D | 1963 | 1382.25 David "Sweeney" Schriner | 1934-35 | 1945-46 | LW | 1962 | 1337.50 Harry "Cammie" Cameron | 1917-18 | 1922-23 | D | 1962 | 1317.85 Gordie "Lefty" Drillon | 1936-37 | 1942-43 | RW | 1975 | 1254.00 Sylvio Mantha | 1923-24 | 1936-37 | D | 1960 | 1249.55 Harry "Punch" Broadbent | 1918-19 | 1928-29 | RW | 1962 | 1223.00 Alec "The Ottawa Fireman" Connell | 1924-25 | 1936-37 | G | 1958 | 1213.00 Chuck "Wandering Scotsman" Gardiner | 1927-28 | 1933-34 | G | 1945 | 1203.00 Reg "Old Sarge" Noble | 1917-18 | 1932-33 | LW | 1962 | 1192.85 Albert "Babe" Siebert | 1925-26 | 1938-39 | LW | 1964 | 1167.25 Reginald "Hooley" Smith | 1924-25 | 1940-41 | C | 1972 | 1164.00 Joe "Phantom" v | 1917-18 | 1923-24 | C | 1950 | 1162.50 Marty "Goal-a-Game" Barry | 1927-28 | 1939-40 | C | 1965 | 1147.00 Lionel "Connie The Clutch" Conacher | 1925-26 | 1936-37 | D | 1994 | 1136.80 Syd Howe | 1929-30 | 1945-46 | C | 1965 | 1081.00 Paul Thompson | 1926-27 | 1938-39 | LW | | 1002.00 Dave "Davey" Kerr | 1930-31 | 1940-41 | G | | 977.50 Ralph "Cooney" Weiland | 1928-29 | 1938-39 | C | 1971 | 962.00 Frank "Flash" Hollett | 1933-34 | 1945-46 | D | | 945.80 Ace I. "Major Hoople Of Bracebridge" Bailey | 1926-27 | 1933-34 | RW | 1975 | 883.50 Billy "Yonkers Billy" Burch | 1922-23 | 1932-33 | C | 1974 | 878.00 Ceece "Two Gun" Dillon | 1930-31 | 1939-40 | RW | | 855.50 Herb Cain | 1933-34 | 1945-46 | LW | | 843.00 Lynn Patrick | 1934-35 | 1945-46 | LW | 1980 | 816.00 Joe "Gentleman Joe" Primeau | 1927-28 | 1935-36 | C | 1963 | 808.00 Roy "Shrimp" Worters | 1925-26 | 1936-37 | G | 1969 | 808.00 Ching "The Holding Corporation" Johnson | 1926-27 | 1937-38 | D | 1958 | 780.55 Frederick "Bun" Cook | 1926-27 | 1936-37 | LW | 1995 | 771.50 Art Coulter | 1931-32 | 1941-42 | D | 1974 | 762.80 Lorne "Chabotsky" Chabot | 1926-27 | 1936-37 | G | | 746.50 John "Little Napolean" Roach | 1921-22 | 1934-35 | G | | 736.00 Frank "The Slumbering Romeo" Finnigan | 1923-24 | 1936-37 | RW | | 735.50 Clarence "Hap" Day | 1924-25 | 1937-38 | D | 1961 | 729.35 Billy Boucher | 1921-22 | 1927-28 | RW | | 715.50 Lorne Carr | 1933-34 | 1945-46 | RW | | 715.50 Johnny Gottselig | 1928-29 | 1944-45 | LW | | 713.50 Jack Darragh * | 1917-18 | 1923-24 | RW | 1962 | 708.00 | | | | | Herbie "The Duke Of Duluth" Lewis | 1928-29 | 1938-39 | LW | 1989 | 542.00 Red "The Big Bad Wolf" Horner | 1928-29 | 1939-40 | D | 1965 | 523.90 | | | | | Wilf "Shorty" Green | 1923-24 | 1926-27 | RW | 1962 | 109.00

* + played 7 NHA seasons​

What is very revealing about the HHOF voters perspective is the chronological order of election.

Example. The Monitor Points gap between linemates Bill Cook,Frank Boucher and Bun Cook reflects how fast each was honoured. Bill and Frank with much higher monitor point totals were honoured in a timely fashion while Bun Cook had to wait into the 1990's before being honoured.

Example goalies. Clint Benedict with higher monitor points was elected after Connell, Hainsworth, Gardiner and Vezina.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Lets see....

Hap Day: Proved his worth coaching, that gave him a boost.
Jack Darragh: Would be higher if NHA was included.
Herbie Lewis: Puzzling Hall of Famer if there ever was one.
Red Horner: Better than a lot of indicators credit. But, should not be in the Hall...
Shorty Green: Is in for being the first player to stand up for a player's union, or something like that.

Interesting. Appreciate the reply.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Herbie Lewis

Lets see....

Hap Day: Proved his worth coaching, that gave him a boost.
Jack Darragh: Would be higher if NHA was included.
Herbie Lewis: Puzzling Hall of Famer if there ever was one.
Red Horner: Better than a lot of indicators credit. But, should not be in the Hall...
Shorty Green: Is in for being the first player to stand up for a player's union, or something like that.

Herbie Lewis played on the 1936 and 1937 Detroit Red Wings SC champion teams. From 1927 t0 1946 only two teams repeated as Stanley Cup champions the 1930 and 1931 Canadiens and the Wings.

The Canadiens had Morenz, Joliat, S.Mantha and George Hainsworth with impressive statistical performances leading a solid supporting cast while the Red Wings had Marty Barry, Larry Aurie, Syd Howe, Herb Lewis, Ebbie Goodfellow - excellent solid players with a weaker supporting cast who as a team performed better than their stats foretold.

In recognizing players the HHOF tries to account for such contributions.

 

[fink26]

HHOF Monitor

pnep, great job. Is there a place with updated totals for the HHOF Monitor?

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Herbie Lewis played on the 1936 and 1937 Detroit Red Wings SC champion teams. From 1927 t0 1946 only two teams repeated as Stanley Cup champions the 1930 and 1931 Canadiens and the Wings.

The Canadiens had Morenz, Joliat, S.Mantha and George Hainsworth with impressive statistical performances leading a solid supporting cast while the Red Wings had Marty Barry, Larry Aurie, Syd Howe, Herb Lewis, Ebbie Goodfellow - excellent solid players with a weaker supporting cast who as a team performed better than their stats foretold.

In recognizing players the HHOF tries to account for such contributions.

I'm aware of his play on a back to back winner. But, That doesn't stop him from being meh. Aurie isn't in the Hall and was just as valuable. Normie Smith was more valuable and he's not in the Hall. Also, the '48 Hawks only have 1 Hall of Famer, the only such cup winner in NHL history. (Well, pre-1995, but all 95-03 Cup winners have mortal locks. and 04-09 is too soon to judge.) The reason for this is that the talent pool started dropping fast due to the depression. In the early '30s, the NHL was deep with talent, but, as stars declined, new stars simply didn't emerge as quickly as they had in the past.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The Late 1930's

I'm aware of his play on a back to back winner. But, That doesn't stop him from being meh. Aurie isn't in the Hall and was just as valuable. Normie Smith was more valuable and he's not in the Hall. Also, the '48 Hawks only have 1 Hall of Famer, the only such cup winner in NHL history. (Well, pre-1995, but all 95-03 Cup winners have mortal locks. and 04-09 is too soon to judge.) The reason for this is that the talent pool started dropping fast due to the depression. In the early '30s, the NHL was deep with talent, but, as stars declined, new stars simply didn't emerge as quickly as they had in the past.

Normie Smith had too short a career even though he had some memorable playoffs and games. Lewis over Aurie probably a function of position LW.

Depression talent pool somewhat of a misconception. Apps, Schmidt,Bauer, Dumart, Lach, M.Richard, just a short list. The early thirties rule changes re forward passing and the elimination of certain defensive strategies - stacking the defensive zone to protect a lead changed the game, making it faster and more team oriented. From 1934 onwards the Stanley Cup champions were team driven as opposed to star driven.

 

[pnep]

Thanks. It's surprising to me to see Malkin so high on the "most accomplished in 4 seasons (or less I assume)" list after only having 3 seasons. I take it "Hart runner up" counts almost as much as the Hart. Malkin does have the 2 First Team All Stars, Cup, and Smythe, but he's basically on the same pace as Ovechkin (if you account for the difference in number of seasons played).

"HHOF Monitor" PTS First 3 NHL Seasons
(without players who started pro career in NHA, PCHA, WCHL/WHL)

Player|POS|Seasons|NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
Wayne "The Great One" Gretzky|C|1979-82|1539.50
Terry "Ukey" Sawchuk |G|1949-53|1102.50
Evgeni "Gino" Malkin|C|2006-09|~1100
Bill "The Mirror Man" Durnan |G|1943-46|1098.50
Jean "Le Gros Bill" Beliveau |C|1950-56|1001.50
Frank "Mr. Zero" Brimsek |G|1938-41|965.50
Cecil "Tiny" Thompson |G|1928-31|953.50
Ken "Octopus" Dryden |G|1970-75|936.00
Tony "Tony O" Esposito |G|1968-72|911.50
Alexander "Ovie" Ovechkin|LW|2005-08|~890
Nels "Old Poison" Stewart |C|1925-28|877.50
Gordie "Lefty" Drillon |RW|1936-39|814.00
C.J. Syl "Slippery Syl" Apps |D|1936-39|750.00
Glenn "Mr. Goalie" Hall |G|1952-58|743.50
Denis "Baby Bear" Potvin |D|1973-76|687.45
Cecil "Babe" Dye |RW|1919-22|680.50
Alec "The Ottawa Fireman" Connell |G|1924-27|663.00
Jacques "Lappy" Laperriere |D|1962-66|661.00
Ed "The Eagle" Belfour |G|1988-93|661.00
John "Mum" Mowers |G|1940-43|655.50
Sidney "Sid The Kid" Crosby|C|2005-08|~650
Ralph "Cooney" Weiland |C|1928-31|634.00
Mario "The Magnificent" Lemieux |C|1984-87|627.00
Bobby "Number Four" Orr |D|1966-69|624.85
Jacques "Jake The Snake" Plante |G|1952-56|624.00
Paul "The Sharpshooter" Kariya |LW|1994-97|619.00
Dominik "The Dominator" Hasek |G|1990-95|612.50
David "Sweeney" Schriner|LW|1934-37|610.00
Dave Keon |C|1960-63|601.00
Billy Boucher |RW|1921-24|593.00
Howie "The Stratford Streak" Morenz |C|1923-26|586.50
Maurice "The Rocket" Richard |RW|1942-45|585.50
Mike "The Boss" Bossy |RW|1977-80|583.00
Bobby "The Golden Jet" Hull |LW|1957-60|559.00
Roger "Roger The Dodger" Crozier |G|1963-67|538.00
Charlie "Big Blue Bomber" Conacher |RW|1929-32|536.50
Ron "Hexy" Hextall |G|1986-89|533.50
Mike "Lootty" Liut |G|1979-82|516.50
Eric "Big E" Lindros |C|1992-95|507.50
Henri "Pocket Rocket" Richard |C|1955-58|503.50
Tom "Tomcat" Barrasso |G|1983-86|503.00

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Normie Smith had too short a career even though he had some memorable playoffs and games. Lewis over Aurie probably a function of position LW.

Depression talent pool somewhat of a misconception. Apps, Schmidt,Bauer, Dumart, Lach, M.Richard, just a short list. The early thirties rule changes re forward passing and the elimination of certain defensive strategies - stacking the defensive zone to protect a lead changed the game, making it faster and more team oriented. From 1934 onwards the Stanley Cup champions were team driven as opposed to star driven.

Richard and Lach entered during the war era. Bauer and Dumart weren't stars IMO. Apps and Schmidt, yes. But, even then, they didn't really start to blossom until '38 and latter. By the end of the depression, talented rookies were comming in, and during the war era. But the generation that should have been established stars in the mid-late 30's fizzled. Same thing happened in the 90's, but extended peaks of 80's picks masked it.

And yes, it was more of a team game, very true, but, team systems don't get players into the Hall of Fame unless they played for Toronto.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Depression

Richard and Lach entered during the war era. Bauer and Dumart weren't stars IMO. Apps and Schmidt, yes. But, even then, they didn't really start to blossom until '38 and latter. By the end of the depression, talented rookies were comming in, and during the war era. But the generation that should have been established stars in the mid-late 30's fizzled. Same thing happened in the 90's, but extended peaks of 80's picks masked it.

And yes, it was more of a team game, very true, but, team systems don't get players into the Hall of Fame unless they played for Toronto.

Depends on how you view depression hockey.The NHL rule changes - forward pass, offside, etc in the early thirties impacted on the rookies from the thirties because they had to change their game at the NHL level.Some adapted, while others did not. Also impacted on goalies.

The parallel you draw with the 1990's is very interesting because effectively in the 1930's the rule changes brought about changes in the way NHL hockey was played. In the 1990's unlimited access to the Soviet and European players brought about changes to NHL hockey as well.

In both instances the rookies and /or newcomers would have the hardest adjustment period.

Team system - other than the previously mentioned Red Wings, the Leafs historically had the most success with a team approach. In fact until the 1974/1975 Flyers other than the Canadiens, Leafs and Red Wings no other team repeated.

Some of the HHOF inductees reflect perceptions of team style from an era. Leo Boivin, Fern Flaman, Bill Quackenbush reflect the perception about Boston defensemen (granted the first two are ex Leafs). Doug Bentley, Roy Conacher, Bill Mosienko perceptions about Chicago wingers.