Hockey Outsider
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- Jan 16, 2005
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HOF Monitor Points through Four Seasons
- Thread starter Hockey Outsider
- Start date
Jungosi
Registered User
I think Ovie's first four seasons are on par with some of the very best ever.
Gretzky is the obvious number one with 3(4) Art Ross Trophies, 4 Hart Trophies and while he hadn't won a cup after 4 years he sure had great playoffs production-wise. He also devasted a lot of scoring records in his first four years.
Almost as good was Gretzky was Bobby Orr. 3 Norris Trophies, a Conn Smythe, an Art Ross and four All-Star selections (3/1) , plus one Hart.
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This is what I'd consider as the first tier in this department. The second tier where I'd put Ovechkin includes the following players.
Mario Lemieux won an Art Ross, a Hart and placed 2nd and 3rd in scoring. He also was selected an All-Star three times (1/2). He did all that with virtually no support at all.
Nels Stewart had probably the best rookie season ever , even better than Gretzky. He won a Hart and lead the league in goals as well as in points. In the next 3 years he had two more top-3 and a top-10 finish in goals. He also placed 2nd, 5th and 6th in points.
Another great goal scorer named Mike Bossy also produced at a ridiculous pace from his first year on. 2 times he placed 1st in goal scoring placed 2nd and 5th in his the other two years. He was selected an All-Star three times (1/2) and won two Stanley Cups where he contributed 27 goals and 58 points to his teams efforts.
A contemporary of Bossy and one of the greatest defensemen ever also had a great start to his career. Raymond Bourque was selected an All-Star in all of his first four seasons (2/2) as was runner-up for the Norris once.
This is the place Ovechkin belongs I think. Top-goalscorer of the league twice, an Art Ross, two Harts, a 3rd and a 4th place finish in goal-scoring, 4 times an All-Star (4/0).
Honorable mentions are : Denis Potvin, Bryan Trottier and Peter Stastny, Sidney Crosby and Tony Esposito.
Side Notes :
- When I looked up how the all-time greats did in their first four seasons it was very interesting to see that rookies apparently had it harder in the 40's, 50's and 60's. Players like Bobby Hull or Gordie Howe weren't as productive in their first two or three years as some people might think.
- Evgeni Malkin is another player to keep an eye on. With an Art Ross, two Hart Runner-ups, a Conn Smythe and two first team selections he certainly has the potential to join the second tier.
- My research was more rather superficial and I am almost 100% certain that I forgot someone important and obvious. So feel free to personally attack me and add those players I missed.
Edit Hah , I found an omission before anyone else. Charlie Conacher led the league in goal-scoring twice and was an All-Star two times.
His linemate Busher Jackson also did very good. An Art Ross, two All-Star selections an placing 2nd and 3rd in goal scoring add up to a good result too.
Gretzky is the obvious number one with 3(4) Art Ross Trophies, 4 Hart Trophies and while he hadn't won a cup after 4 years he sure had great playoffs production-wise. He also devasted a lot of scoring records in his first four years.
Almost as good was Gretzky was Bobby Orr. 3 Norris Trophies, a Conn Smythe, an Art Ross and four All-Star selections (3/1) , plus one Hart.
----------
This is what I'd consider as the first tier in this department. The second tier where I'd put Ovechkin includes the following players.
Mario Lemieux won an Art Ross, a Hart and placed 2nd and 3rd in scoring. He also was selected an All-Star three times (1/2). He did all that with virtually no support at all.
Nels Stewart had probably the best rookie season ever , even better than Gretzky. He won a Hart and lead the league in goals as well as in points. In the next 3 years he had two more top-3 and a top-10 finish in goals. He also placed 2nd, 5th and 6th in points.
Another great goal scorer named Mike Bossy also produced at a ridiculous pace from his first year on. 2 times he placed 1st in goal scoring placed 2nd and 5th in his the other two years. He was selected an All-Star three times (1/2) and won two Stanley Cups where he contributed 27 goals and 58 points to his teams efforts.
A contemporary of Bossy and one of the greatest defensemen ever also had a great start to his career. Raymond Bourque was selected an All-Star in all of his first four seasons (2/2) as was runner-up for the Norris once.
This is the place Ovechkin belongs I think. Top-goalscorer of the league twice, an Art Ross, two Harts, a 3rd and a 4th place finish in goal-scoring, 4 times an All-Star (4/0).
Honorable mentions are : Denis Potvin, Bryan Trottier and Peter Stastny, Sidney Crosby and Tony Esposito.
Side Notes :
- When I looked up how the all-time greats did in their first four seasons it was very interesting to see that rookies apparently had it harder in the 40's, 50's and 60's. Players like Bobby Hull or Gordie Howe weren't as productive in their first two or three years as some people might think.
- Evgeni Malkin is another player to keep an eye on. With an Art Ross, two Hart Runner-ups, a Conn Smythe and two first team selections he certainly has the potential to join the second tier.
- My research was more rather superficial and I am almost 100% certain that I forgot someone important and obvious. So feel free to personally attack me and add those players I missed.
Edit Hah , I found an omission before anyone else. Charlie Conacher led the league in goal-scoring twice and was an All-Star two times.
His linemate Busher Jackson also did very good. An Art Ross, two All-Star selections an placing 2nd and 3rd in goal scoring add up to a good result too.
Last edited:
Assuming we’re counting first 4 full seasons, then I think Jean Beliveau needs to be added to your list. While his rookie campaign wasn’t great (as he sufferd from injuries), the 4 total seasons included:
-1 Hart
-1 Art Ross, and 2 other top 3 finishes
-1 goal scoring title, and 2 other top 3 finishes
-3 first team all-star selections
-4 striaght double digit point playoffs
-Monster 55/56 playoffs with 12 goals and 19 points in 10 games
definitely
if goalies are included, sawchuk, dryden, brimsek and roy should be mentioned.
Jungosi
Registered User
I left out those with incomplete rookie season (like Jean Beliveau) to keep it more simple and to avoid the arguement what counts as an incomplete season and what not. But of course if you put it this way you can certainly include the likes of Beliveau. I also have to admit that I didn't really looked up the goalies exept for Esposito from whom I knew that he was pretty good from the beginning on. Maybe someone could take a closer look at the goaltenders.
tommygunn
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Bear of Bad News
Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
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Ovechkin's first season was in the World Hockey Association in 1978-79?
No, but IIRC, he played the lockout season in a pros. Comparable IMO to Gretzky playing a year in the WHA. No real point about it though.
The NHL didn't consider the Russian Super League to be a "pro" league. Same with every other European league. The only time they have done so was with the WHA.
Don't know what they will do with the KHL though. Could fall the same way as the WHA, seeing how they are both openly competing with the NHL.
Crosbyfan
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- Nov 27, 2003
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Pnep won no major hockey awards to my knowledge. I don't think he was in the WHA in 78/79 either, though I could be wrong. Maybe he played on a line with Ovechkin?
Pnep was dominating the old Soviet League back then. Statistician of the year 6 of his first 7 seasons. Not his fault he couldn't come over. A victim of cold-war politics if ever there was one.
Crosbyfan
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Canadiens1958
Registered User
Remember that in Soviet Russia, you don't play-off. Off Plays you.
In this sense, his stats actually improved.
Weztex
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Still, we didn't get to see pnep against real competition. I think Soviet statistitians tend to get overrated around this board. He was basically put against bottom tier boarders. He would probably get destroyed today given the natural evolution of statistitians.
You sound like one of those guys who think that the webmaster of Nicklas Lidstrom's personal website is superior to Bobby Orr's personal beat reporter from the 70's just because he has new technology and techniques at his disposal. Who's to say Orr wouldn't have an even bigger web presence if he had the luxury of today's technology? Context, my friend.
pnep
Registered User
Wayne "The Great One" Gretzky |C|1979-83|2172.00
Eduard "Newsy" Lalonde |C|1917-21|1529.50
Terry "Ukey" Sawchuk |G|1949-54|1515.50
Bill "The Mirror Man" Durnan |G|1943-47|1442.00
Alexander "Ovie" Ovechkin |LW|2005-09|~1420
Jean "Le Gros Bill" Beliveau |C|1950-57|1384.50
Bobby "Number Four" Orr |D|1966-70|1359.40
Ken "Octopus" Dryden |G|1970-76|1326.00
Frank "Mr. Zero" Brimsek |G|1938-42|1250.00
Mario "The Magnificent" Lemieux |C|1984-88|1186.00
Clint "Praying Bennie" Benedict |G|1917-21|1172.50
George "Little George" Hainsworth |G|1926-30|1163.50
Tony "Tony O" Esposito |G|1968-73|1109.50
Evgeni "Gino" Malkin |C|2006-09|~1100
Frank "The Flying Dutchman" Nighbor |C|1917-21|1095.50
Frank "Raffles" Boucher |C|1921-29|1074.50
Cecil "Babe" Dye |RW|1919-23|1047.50
Nels "Old Poison" Stewart |C|1925-29|1018.00
Cecil "Tiny" Thompson |G|1928-32|964.50
Jacques "Jake The Snake" Plante |G|1952-57|961.00
Bryan "Trots" Trottier |C|1975-79|953.00
Harry "Cammie" Cameron |D|1917-21|930.60
Eddie "The Edmonton Express" Shore |D|1926-30|928.65
C.J. Syl "Slippery Syl" Apps |D|1936-40|920.00
Brett "The Golden Brett" Hull |RW|1985-91|918.00
Joe "Phantom" Malone |C|1917-21|913.00
Gordie "Lefty" Drillon |RW|1936-40|906.00
Mike "The Boss" Bossy |RW|1977-81|897.00
Georges "The Chicoutimi Cucumber" Vezina |G|1917-21|877.50
Alec "The Ottawa Fireman" Connell |G|1924-28|854.50
Sidney "Sid The Kid" Crosby |C|2005-09|~820
Bernie "Boom-Boom" Geoffrion |RW|1950-55|802.50
Maurice "The Rocket" Richard |RW|1942-46|782.00
Glenn "Mr. Goalie" Hall |G|1952-59|779.00
Denis "Baby Bear" Potvin |D|1973-77|777.05
Howie "The Stratford Streak" Morenz |C|1923-27|769.50
Sprague "The Big Train" Cleghorn |D|1918-22|761.75
Billy Boucher |RW|1921-25|742.00
Jack Darragh |RW|1917-21|739.50
Douglas "Brad" Park |D|1968-72|718.65
Dave Keon |C|1960-64|717.00
Jacques "Lappy" Laperriere |D|1962-67|716.90
Bill Cook |RW|1926-30|715.00
Cy "The Cornwall Colt" Denneny |LW|1917-21|704.00
Bobby Bauer |RW|1935-41|688.00
Ed "The Eagle" Belfour |G|1988-94|687.00
David "Sweeney" Schriner|LW|1934-38|685.00
Bobby "The Golden Jet" Hull |LW|1957-61|680.00
Harry "Punch" Broadbent |RW|1918-22|677.00
Eric "Big E" Lindros |C|1992-96|666.00
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Thanks. It's surprising to me to see Malkin so high on the "most accomplished in 4 seasons (or less I assume)" list after only having 3 seasons. I take it "Hart runner up" counts almost as much as the Hart. Malkin does have the 2 First Team All Stars, Cup, and Smythe, but he's basically on the same pace as Ovechkin (if you account for the difference in number of seasons played).
By 1917 Lalonde was already an established star with a decade of pro hockey behind him so his inclusion on the list might not be appropriate.
Durnan stepped into the NHL at the top of his game, an experienced 27-year-old rookie when he signed with the Habs who probably would have gone with a teenaged Gerry McNeil if he hadn't
Big Phil
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- Nov 2, 2003
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Crosby is awfully low on that list of stars I think. He's had a Hart, Ross, Pearson, first team all-star and a Cup. Not to mention two huge playoff performances already. Do the playoffs not count here?
Gretzky (74) and Bossy (70) are the only players who by my count have more playoff points in their first 4 years in the NHL other than Crosby (63) while Malkin (62) will likely pass all three in his 4th year.
Gretzky (74) and Bossy (70) are the only players who by my count have more playoff points in their first 4 years in the NHL other than Crosby (63) while Malkin (62) will likely pass all three in his 4th year.
Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
Obviously not. From one side of the mouth, metrics A, B, C are most important, but in other threads you find arguments in favour of those who have produced in the post-season and/or have won the Cup (sometimes multiple times). The statistical analysis in its current form is insufficient imo.
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