Hockey's Future Top 50 Prospects Fall 2005: 1-10
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McDonald19
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Gags1288 said:
Agreed. Can't say I like him being in the top 10, especially not ahead of a talent like Carter.
As someone who doesn't care for the Pens, Flyers and especially the Rangers, I'll tell you right now that Fleury has the best upside of the three. Nittymaki is 25. Lundquist is 23 and still hasn't played a game in North America. Fleury's 21 this fall, and at least he has done something in the NHL. While Fleury has had hicups, I still like his potential the most, and I think in the next three to four years he'll be in the elite.
1984 was a great year for goalies to be born in, it'll likely proved to be the best year of the 80s. Fleury, Toivonen, Ward, Harding, Howard and Deslauriers were all born in 1984. (Lehtonen was born in 1983). Truth be told, Fleury has not been as good as Toivonen, Ward or even Harding the last two years. I think the kid is still a little shell-shocked from that first half-season with Pittsburgh. He showed tremendous upside in the first half of 2003, and I think he'll do fine this year in the AHL. While some of those 1984s have caught up (especially Toivonen and Ward), I think Fleury still has the most upside, and he will eventually put it all together.
1984 was a great year for goalies to be born in, it'll likely proved to be the best year of the 80s. Fleury, Toivonen, Ward, Harding, Howard and Deslauriers were all born in 1984. (Lehtonen was born in 1983). Truth be told, Fleury has not been as good as Toivonen, Ward or even Harding the last two years. I think the kid is still a little shell-shocked from that first half-season with Pittsburgh. He showed tremendous upside in the first half of 2003, and I think he'll do fine this year in the AHL. While some of those 1984s have caught up (especially Toivonen and Ward), I think Fleury still has the most upside, and he will eventually put it all together.
Jaded-Fan
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MojoJojo said:
Fair enough. Just a question though. If you polled NHL Scouts and/or GM's. straight up trade right now for either of the two (or almost any other goalie prospect outside of Lehtonen), how do you think that poll would go? The accolades Fleury has gotten are for projections on what he has will grow into when he hits his prime, not save pecentages when he was 19 years old on an AHL team that had a pretty mediocre defense. Can he miss? Sure, Crosby could even miss. But I do not hear NHL people anything but remaining high on Fleury down the road. He remains very young.
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
No I was out.
As for getting owned, I would like you to explain me how Chiodo beat out Fleury for the starting job, since Fleury played 54 games, while Chiodo played 14 (and many in the ECHL).
Really, I would like to know how I'm getting owned by stupid arguments that are disconnected from reality.
The truth, if you had followed the WB Pens which you obviously hadn't (and that would have helped you make you a DECENT opinion) was that Fleury had rather good numbers when the team started to screw up a lot.
FYI, since you seem to need a lot of explaining, goalie numbers are ALL team stats.
WB has been under average, especially defensively, and all goalie suffered from it. Chiodo (who supposedly "beat out Fleury" according to your misinformation scored a .879 savec percentage for instance).
Fleury's stats suffered from his team play.
He certainly has some things to work on, but as I said, two years ago he made a dazzling month in the NHL, and last year he set the franchise record for most wins in WB.
As for getting owned, I would like you to explain me how Chiodo beat out Fleury for the starting job, since Fleury played 54 games, while Chiodo played 14 (and many in the ECHL).
Really, I would like to know how I'm getting owned by stupid arguments that are disconnected from reality.
The truth, if you had followed the WB Pens which you obviously hadn't (and that would have helped you make you a DECENT opinion) was that Fleury had rather good numbers when the team started to screw up a lot.
FYI, since you seem to need a lot of explaining, goalie numbers are ALL team stats.
WB has been under average, especially defensively, and all goalie suffered from it. Chiodo (who supposedly "beat out Fleury" according to your misinformation scored a .879 savec percentage for instance).
Fleury's stats suffered from his team play.
He certainly has some things to work on, but as I said, two years ago he made a dazzling month in the NHL, and last year he set the franchise record for most wins in WB.
I find it unbelievably stupid that many posters around here go nuts over a prospect (Fleury a sure fire next Brodeur) to completely down on the same player after ONE game (Fleury is a bust).
Fleury has done a wonderful job for a guy his age.
He needs to work on plenty of things on his game, but guess what? Every 20 year old goalie needs to.
There's absolutely no reason why he should be out of the top 7.
Fleury has done a wonderful job for a guy his age.
He needs to work on plenty of things on his game, but guess what? Every 20 year old goalie needs to.
There's absolutely no reason why he should be out of the top 7.
Evilo said:
What the heck are you talking about? Since obviously no one here can have a "decent opinion" on Fleury, would you care to explain to us in your infinite wisdom how when the back-up starts the majority of games in the playoffs that Fleury didn't get beaten out of his job?
Two years running Fleury has dropped the ball in the AHL playoffs, and Chiodo has come in to save the day. We all know Fleury has potential through the roof, but you'd have to be quite the homer to think that Fleury's stock hasn't dropped any. I mean, what other top prospect is there out there in which you need to turn back the clock 2 years to find a satisfactory performance to argue his worth with?
Once again you use awful arguments.
For once, Fleury is criticized for not starting in front of Chiodo and having "miserable" stats, and then it's about the playoffs.
These are two different matters.
Fleury started most of the season in the AHL, and as usual, Chiodo stepped up BIG TIME in the playoffs.
Fleury was average in the playoffs, but Chiodo was once again spectacular (and this has a lot to do with the WB crowd as well, but that's another matter).
Chiodo is always twoce the player he normally is in the playoffs. He's just clutch.
It really has to do with Chiodo more than with Fleury.
Fleury didn't suddenly suck. His team was playing up and down as usual, and when Therrien tried to start Chiodo, he performed admirably.
So call me hoper all you want, but Fleury's franchise record point that he's done something Caron or Chiodo could never do. Obviously, it's also a team stat, so it's hard to say what Fleury's role is in all of this.
But if you had READ reports day and day out, you'd see Fleury has stood on his head in some games, and was under-average in others.
But he's certainly not been bad this season.
He's had the normal development of a 20 year old goalie in his first full pro season.
For once, Fleury is criticized for not starting in front of Chiodo and having "miserable" stats, and then it's about the playoffs.
These are two different matters.
Fleury started most of the season in the AHL, and as usual, Chiodo stepped up BIG TIME in the playoffs.
Fleury was average in the playoffs, but Chiodo was once again spectacular (and this has a lot to do with the WB crowd as well, but that's another matter).
Chiodo is always twoce the player he normally is in the playoffs. He's just clutch.
It really has to do with Chiodo more than with Fleury.
Fleury didn't suddenly suck. His team was playing up and down as usual, and when Therrien tried to start Chiodo, he performed admirably.
So call me hoper all you want, but Fleury's franchise record point that he's done something Caron or Chiodo could never do. Obviously, it's also a team stat, so it's hard to say what Fleury's role is in all of this.
But if you had READ reports day and day out, you'd see Fleury has stood on his head in some games, and was under-average in others.
But he's certainly not been bad this season.
He's had the normal development of a 20 year old goalie in his first full pro season.
Unbelievable how much people are bandwagonners with no patience around here 
People should understand that when you talk about prospects, which is the obvious talk at hockeysfuture.com, you should have patience and avoid being childish and throw some "busts" or "superstar" words every two sentences.
People should understand that when you talk about prospects, which is the obvious talk at hockeysfuture.com, you should have patience and avoid being childish and throw some "busts" or "superstar" words every two sentences.
Evilo said:Unbelievable how much people are bandwagonners with no patience around here
People should understand that when you talk about prospects, which is the obvious talk at hockeysfuture.com, you should have patience and avoid being childish and throw some "busts" or "superstar" words every two sentences.
I definitely agree with this post, and I for one still think the world of Fleury. I'd definitely have him in the top-10 myself, as you say he is still incredibly young and has made it very obvious that he's got the potential.
This post though... What the hell. What awful arguments did I use exactly? Those in glass houses.........Evilo said:
The point of my post was that Fleury did get beaten out for the starting job.. Despite apparently disagreeing with my 'arguments', you offered many reasons why or how Chiodo beat out Fleury for the starting job, which in some strange way pretty much backs up what I said.
I then chipped in with my own thoughts on the subject, which as far as I can tell at least appears to be completely true... But feel free to show me otherwise.
And he played normal too. He didn't play like a super-l33t-mega-prospect.
See Lehtonen's first year in NA at the same age for what an elite prospect should look like.
Harding looked better, same age.
People shouldn't have to make excuses for these elite prospects. For elite prospects it should be layer after layer of "here's why this guy kicks ass...". When you have to keep doing "here's why he sucked..." you got a problem.
And the thing is he never sucked.
Once again, he had the most amazing first month an NHL goalie has had recently (and people here were already throwing future HOFer).
And as I previously said, he's had some astounding games this year.
No "average" prospect would have played the way he's played in some games this year or the year before.
Lehtonen32, Fleury started 54 regular season games. Chiodo could never beat him out in the regular season. Not even close. So yes Fleury was the starting goalie.
The playoffs were a different matter.
Chiodo didn't beat Fleury out of the starting spot since come September, you can be pretty sure Chiodo is back to backup or ECHL.
So to sum it up :
In any normal game : Fleury>>>Chiodo
In the playoffs : Chiodo>>>Fleury or almost any AHL goalie
Once again, he had the most amazing first month an NHL goalie has had recently (and people here were already throwing future HOFer).
And as I previously said, he's had some astounding games this year.
No "average" prospect would have played the way he's played in some games this year or the year before.
Lehtonen32, Fleury started 54 regular season games. Chiodo could never beat him out in the regular season. Not even close. So yes Fleury was the starting goalie.
The playoffs were a different matter.
Chiodo didn't beat Fleury out of the starting spot since come September, you can be pretty sure Chiodo is back to backup or ECHL.
So to sum it up :
In any normal game : Fleury>>>Chiodo
In the playoffs : Chiodo>>>Fleury or almost any AHL goalie
His month in the NHL wasn't amazing. It was a mega up's and down's with the end result being poor until you go "yeah, but he's young". Similar to what Backburn had. It's very easy to cherry pick some great saves and a few games and say "wow, see that's why he was drafted that high". You can do that for almost any young goalie (especially since the young one's are going to rely more on athletic ability and need to make the highlight saves over the older goalie that has angles and positioning down better).
Boucher's made a damn career out of that. The end result of Fleury's stint in the NHL was a really crappy record and a really crappy save %, and a few games and saves that made you go "wow". Yeah, I know, tell me how "young" he was again. That's one of my favorite prospect excuses right up there with "first year in North America".
In the AHL, he put up one of the worst save %'s for a starting goalie in the regular season. And in the playoffs over 4 games put up really craptastic number and was pulled because of it.
That you tried to point out Lehtonen only started 32 games (and looked great) to Fleury's 54 (who didn't look great), only proves my exact point that Fleury at this point and times need excuse making. Who freakin' cares that Fleury was in 22 more games. In both cases you get a large enough body of work to make evalutions on them.
Boucher's made a damn career out of that. The end result of Fleury's stint in the NHL was a really crappy record and a really crappy save %, and a few games and saves that made you go "wow". Yeah, I know, tell me how "young" he was again. That's one of my favorite prospect excuses right up there with "first year in North America".
In the AHL, he put up one of the worst save %'s for a starting goalie in the regular season. And in the playoffs over 4 games put up really craptastic number and was pulled because of it.
That you tried to point out Lehtonen only started 32 games (and looked great) to Fleury's 54 (who didn't look great), only proves my exact point that Fleury at this point and times need excuse making. Who freakin' cares that Fleury was in 22 more games. In both cases you get a large enough body of work to make evalutions on them.
That's not true. Fleury was amazing for a whole month. He got quickly tired after that, but there's no down in his first month. Just ups.Liquidrage said:
Yep, on the crappiest team in the NHL, with the crappiest D.Liquidrage said:
I really can't see how a blind man wouldn't see that his numbers in no way reflected the show he put on the ice.
Once again, you fail to see past the numbers and see the team play. What's new?Liquidrage said:
No I pointed Fleury started 54 to Chiodo's 14, which proved my point as who the started was.Liquidrage said:
And yes Fleury looked great at time, average at others.
BTW, Fleury lost two spots compared to last year's rankings : one to Crosby obviously, then the other to Phaneuf.
I think that's fair. Phaneuf improved his stock, and Fleury wasn't consistant enough in the AHL.
That said, I'd still take Fleury over the guys behind him.
I think that's fair. Phaneuf improved his stock, and Fleury wasn't consistant enough in the AHL.
That said, I'd still take Fleury over the guys behind him.
Kaizer
Registered User
One month ? It means nothing. There were so many "one year" wonders to talk about "one great month".
Im December 03, Pavel Datsyuk scored 23 points in 15 games, but it doesn't make him a "PPG player" and "Great play-off performer"
. In March 96, rookie Joe Caloun scored goals on the first four shots on net and ended season with 8 goals with 20 shots (an accuracy rate of 40 per cent). Who knows where this guy is now
It's all IMO, of course.
Im December 03, Pavel Datsyuk scored 23 points in 15 games, but it doesn't make him a "PPG player" and "Great play-off performer"
. In March 96, rookie Joe Caloun scored goals on the first four shots on net and ended season with 8 goals with 20 shots (an accuracy rate of 40 per cent). Who knows where this guy is now It's all IMO, of course.
because there are other goalies who have gotten great results in addition to their high level of skill...something fleury has been rather inconsistant at thus far. not to mention the other many skilled prospects who have greatly improved their "worth" or "status" as a prospect while fleury has stagnated...like someone mentioned, why exactly should fleury be ahead of carter?
and honestly at this point who cares about his stint in the NHL? he was good...then he sucked. NHL shooters figured him out and he has been up and down ever since. his brief success in the NHL was years ago now and he hasn't shown that since...his recent up and down play should be taken into consideration long before that stint at this point.
IMO there's no reason he should be ranked in the top 10 at the moment. i'm not saying he shouldn't be ranked at all, or even that he shouldn't be ranked ahead of some of the other goalies on the list...but top 10 is pushing it at this point i think. maybe top 25 or so
Dan Blackburn. Who actually looked quite good at times and not so great at others.
Fleury did have a better run than Blackburn though, I'll give you that...but Blackburn did put together some nice strings of games as a 18 year old in the NHL
lol.
Yeah, playing so well in the NHL at 18 is sooo meaningless when you make such a ranking.
Obviously.
The fact he's younger than any other goalie on the list (or close to, don't have time to check) is of course sooo meaningless as well. Heck, why not take a 25 year old goalie whose potential is a starter rather than a 20 year old, whose max potential is franchise goalie! :shakhead
Yeah at that stint was yeeeeears ago, after all it was in the last NHL season.
Yeah, playing so well in the NHL at 18 is sooo meaningless when you make such a ranking.
Obviously.
The fact he's younger than any other goalie on the list (or close to, don't have time to check) is of course sooo meaningless as well. Heck, why not take a 25 year old goalie whose potential is a starter rather than a 20 year old, whose max potential is franchise goalie! :shakhead
Yeah at that stint was yeeeeears ago, after all it was in the last NHL season.
I love how people always spin Save %.
He was on a crappy team with no D. Of course his save % sucked.
He was on a great team with a great D. Saw less shots, of course his save % sucked.
He was on a great team with a great D. His save % is obviously inflated and he's not that good.
He was on a poor team with a great D. His good save % is clearly the result of seeing more shots and doesn't reflect how much he really sucks.
I'm waiting for:
He was on an average team, saw average shots. Of course his save % sucked/was great.
I've seen it all for basically every goalie in every situation.
He was on a crappy team with no D. Of course his save % sucked.
He was on a great team with a great D. Saw less shots, of course his save % sucked.
He was on a great team with a great D. His save % is obviously inflated and he's not that good.
He was on a poor team with a great D. His good save % is clearly the result of seeing more shots and doesn't reflect how much he really sucks.
I'm waiting for:
He was on an average team, saw average shots. Of course his save % sucked/was great.
I've seen it all for basically every goalie in every situation.
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