Hockey's Future Mid-season Organizational Rankings (11-20) posted

[Big McLargehuge]

HF's needs new criteria. Fleury,Horton,Staal were all just drafted a few months ago but there not prospects? What? How? So they hit there full potential.

LOL.

seriously, how Sivek is still a prospect and Fleury isn't despite Sivek having 4 years and 17 games on him...

 

[Teemu]

meh, naturally i think we're too low, but thats just me.

seriously, though, i noticed that the forte is just on the listed top prospects on each teams HF page? i notice that no 'dark horses' are present on many of the teams' lists, so players such as, for us, Wisniewski (though not much of a darkhorse) and Viukhola (who is tearing up the finnish league).

Our ranking isnt TOO far off, since many of our top prospects 'graduated', but i see a few teams that i dont see as having better prospects than ours right now (Detroit?).

 

[X-SHARKIE]

seriously, how Sivek is still a prospect and Fleury isn't despite Sivek having 4 years and 17 games on him...

lol, I know ! The system needs to be reworked.

 

[GodZillaAteMyZamboni]

But really, are the Capitals drafting that well in the first round? I think they did great in 2002, not so great in earlier years. But this all falls under the "IMO" category. We can debate each and every prospect's current status and upside forever, and not gain any ground.

No offense, but a couple Pens fans questioning the Caps drafting is beyond humorous. The Pens picked MAF, who was a slam dunk. Other than that, I don't see any Pens first rounders tearing up the NHL.

As far as high end prospects and how HF rated the Caps as an organization, other web sites (TSN) have also projected guys like Johansson, Fehr, Semin, Yonkman, and Ouellete as top-6 forwards, top-4 D, or #1 goalie. If you have a beef with it, player-for-player, show how the Pens match up and explain. Simply giving your opinion is meaningless.

 

[Marshall]

"Beech, Lupaschuk, and Sivek are now under someone who stresses communication first and foremost, and has lots of experience with developing young kids, and to be honest, the three aren't exactly making up for lost time."

Hunh. I thought Kris Beech was 'dominating' the AHL.

Caps seem to have a solid group of prospects. Their drafting has improved, especially vice their drafting of the 90's. I haven't actually heard a rational discussion on why the Caps shouldn't be in the late top ten (IMO), just 'their drafting is bad' or 'half their non-1st rounders can be discounted'. Which team's can't? Which team hasn't had a bust here or there?

Personal feelings about the club aside (which seem to be very involved in this disucssion), when judged strictly on the quality of their prospects versus other team's, I think a case can be made that the Caps are in the upper half of the league, at least.

 

[Gumby]

How long do you actually want?

How about just go by the NHL's rules and when a guy is no longer a rookie he's no longer a prospect. I certainly don't consider youngsters like Kovalchuk and Nash to be prospects anymore even though they're still the same age or younger than most of the guys used in this list, but at the same time "graduating" guys just because they play in a organization thats rebuilding and decides to give some kids 8 mins a game on the 4th line they shouldn't be considered any less of prospect than some kid in Tor, Ott, NJ, Col, etc.. that are left in the minors just because their organization can afford to.

 

[Hockeys Future]

How about just go by the NHL's rules and when a guy is no longer a rookie he's no longer a prospect.

Uhmmm, the NHL's criteria is less games then ours:
http://www.nhl.com/hockeyu/history/trophies/calder.html

 

[Gumby]

Uhmmm, the NHL's criteria is less games then ours:
http://www.nhl.com/hockeyu/history/trophies/calder.html

But he's still a rookie until the season's over.

 

[Hockeys Future]

But he's still a rookie until the season's over.

Correct, but if he played in only 26 games in that one season (or 12 games over two seasons) he would no longer be considered a rookie. Is that what you want?

Edit: We are going to look over the prospect criteria and determine how it can be improved but using the NHL criteria would not be better IMO.

 

[Gumby]

Correct, but if he played in only 26 games in that one season he would no longer be considered a rookie or prospect next year. Is that what you want?

No. What I'm talking about is if you're gonna do this mid-season (which, btw I do appreciate the work) then you should still consider rookies of that year, who are mostly 4th liners or up and down from the minors their first year. IOW, any rookie last year that exceeded whatever the NHL's games played limit is should not be considered a prospect in these rankings, but as long as this is done mid-season you shouldn't exclude guys until their rookie season is over.

 

[Hockeys Future]

No. What I'm talking about is if you're gonna do this mid-season (which, btw I do appreciate the work) then you should still consider rookies of that year, who are mostly 4th liners or up and down from the minors their first year. IOW, any rookie last year that exceeded whatever the NHL's games played limit is should not be considered a prospect in these rankings, but as long as this is done mid-season you shouldn't exclude guys until their rookie season is over.

Point taken and we'll definitely look at how we can improve the organizational rankings for next time. Remember, as far as I can recall, this is the first time we have done the rankings in mid-season so it was a learning process for all. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[thestonedkoala]

The biggest problem I have is the philosophy behind some of the teams, I don't know about any others but this:

The WILD won't draft a defensemen in the first round simply because they can teach a player defense but they can't teach a player offense. They would rather pick up waiver wire defensemen and sign UFA rookies to contracts. Schultz was needed as was Heid but if you look at the Wild, they don't touch defensemen until the later rounds simply because they can get by.

What are they going to do with a defensemen who is ready a year or two and they don't need a defensemen? Let him rot in the minors for 4-5 years and get the occasional call up?

No way!

 

[Jacob]

No offense, but a couple Pens fans questioning the Caps drafting is beyond humorous. The Pens picked MAF, who was a slam dunk. Other than that, I don't see any Pens first rounders tearing up the NHL.

As far as high end prospects and how HF rated the Caps as an organization, other web sites (TSN) have also projected guys like Johansson, Fehr, Semin, Yonkman, and Ouellete as top-6 forwards, top-4 D, or #1 goalie. If you have a beef with it, player-for-player, show how the Pens match up and explain. Simply giving your opinion is meaningless.

Why should I compare the Penguins? This is about the Capitals. Your argument is puzzling.

Personal feelings about the club aside (which seem to be very involved in this disucssion), when judged strictly on the quality of their prospects versus other team's, I think a case can be made that the Caps are in the upper half of the league, at least.

I don't have any personal feelings against them. The same probably can't be said for GodZilla regarding the Penguins. I knew it was going to come down to someone taking it personally and starting the team comparisons as their basis for an argument. I'm not here to start a flame war.

 

[Evilo]

No offense, but a couple Pens fans questioning the Caps drafting is beyond humorous. The Pens picked MAF, who was a slam dunk. Other than that, I don't see any Pens first rounders tearing up the NHL.

As far as high end prospects and how HF rated the Caps as an organization, other web sites (TSN) have also projected guys like Johansson, Fehr, Semin, Yonkman, and Ouellete as top-6 forwards, top-4 D, or #1 goalie. If you have a beef with it, player-for-player, show how the Pens match up and explain. Simply giving your opinion is meaningless.

You mean like Naslund, Straka, Jagr, Orpik, Morozov, Fleury, Koltsov, Kraft?
Pens first rounders over the last 15 years playing in the NHL?
I'd say that pick Naslund isn't doing too bad as far as "tearing it up"...
How about YOUR opinion is meaningless?

 

[GodZillaAteMyZamboni]

Why should I compare the Penguins? This is about the Capitals. Your argument is puzzling.

It was just an example. Use any team if you'd like. My point is that the Caps over the last 6 years have done a much better job than you are giving them credit for.

 

[GodZillaAteMyZamboni]

You mean like Naslund, Straka, Jagr, Orpik, Morozov, Fleury, Koltsov, Kraft?
Pens first rounders over the last 15 years playing in the NHL?
I'd say that pick Naslund isn't doing too bad as far as "tearing it up"...
How about YOUR opinion is meaningless?

We were talking about the last 6 years there tough guy. Quote from Jacobv2:
"Uhh, seriously? Look at their drafting over the last 6 years. Just look at it."
I meant giving an opinion without stating facts to back it up. Simply saying, "Their drafting has been atrocious." without giving examples of why they have been worse than anybody else is meaningless. Lighten up dude.

 

[Evilo]

We were talking about the last 6 years there tough guy. Quote from Jacobv2:
"Uhh, seriously? Look at their drafting over the last 6 years. Just look at it."
I meant giving an opinion without stating facts to back it up. Simply saying, "Their drafting has been atrocious." without giving examples of why they have been worse than anybody else is meaningless. Lighten up dude.

You never mentionned the last 6 years "tough guy".
"Pens fans questionning Caps drafting is humourous"
"I don't see any Pens first rounder tearing it up the NHL".
Do you know many first rounders from any team (who are NOT slam dunks as you said) over the last 6 years that "tear up the NHL"?
Maybe YOU need to lighten up, DUDE.

 

[craig1]

Originally Posted by GodZillaAteMyZamboni
We were talking about the last 6 years there tough guy. ..... Lighten up dude.


Uhmmm...actually Pittsburgh has been one of the better drafting teams over the last maybe not 6, but 4 or 5 years. First rounders alone:
1998: Kraft: Leading Pens in PPG, finally finding his NHL groove.
1999 Koltsov: Just broke in after 1 year in minors. One of the most exciting players to watch in NHL!
2000: Brooks Orpik: Solid. Just plain solid D-man. First year in NHL, in Young stars game. Second in the league in hits behind Chara, and has learned when and when not to take them.
2001: Colby Armstrong: Projected on draft day as gritty second or third liner and penalty killer who gets his nose dirty. That's exactly the role he's playing in his second season in AHL. Noah Welch (rnd 2) is playing amazing hockey at Harvard. How many Defensive D-men garner consideration for the Hobey Baker at any point?
2002: Ryan Whitney: Leading BU in scoring as a D-man. Overcame high ankle sprain last year to dominate college ranks this year.
2003: MAF: Slam dunk pick.

This is just the first round talent. The Pens have some of the better later round talent drafted over the past few years as well in Bartischi, Christiansen, Malankykh (who just made all star team in RSL), etc. To say that their drafting is poor is off base....OK, in the last 7 years, 1997 sucked. All Pens fans agree it was a bad year. The only players it really produced was Joseph Melichar in round 3, and Andy Ference in 7.

 

[GodZillaAteMyZamboni]

You never mentionned the last 6 years...

It's called a thread, if you don't follow it from the beginning, you just might miss some pertinent info. I thought some folks may understand that just a little more than others. I guess I overestimated things a bit.

 

[Evilo]

Or you over-estimate you posting skills...
Or you just try to find a way out of an awful post you made...
Face the facts dude, you try to look clever, but you look silly.

Let me ask you again : how many first rounders from the last 6 years tear up the NHL without being "slam dunks" at the draft table?
Hmm yeah, that's what I thought.
When you try to make someone look bad, you might as well use a decent argument, not something you can't back up.

 

[GodZillaAteMyZamboni]

Or you over-estimate you posting skills...
Or you just try to find a way out of an awful post you made...
Face the facts dude, you try to look clever, but you look silly.

Let me ask you again : how many first rounders from the last 6 years tear up the NHL without being "slam dunks" at the draft table?
Hmm yeah, that's what I thought.
When you try to make someone look bad, you might as well use a decent argument, not something you can't back up.

Look genius, the 6 year time frame was not brought up by me (feel free to research the thread and verify). Get over it and yourself. The only one trying to make anybody look bad here is you. I'd expect better from someone who calls himself a moderator.

As for backing up my opinions, you can expect to see an evaluation of the Caps and Pens drafts for the last 6 years in the next day or so, right here in this thread. Read it if you like, and we'll all see if you have the sack to give any worthwhile commentary.

 

[Scottkmlps]

It makes no sense to make Brown not a prospect after less then 30 games in the NHL.

This and the fact that Zherdev is still considered a prospect and Brown isn't? How that can be I don't know.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

The problem i have with the Wings ranking is they are putting to much stock in Tomas Kopecky. Jim Nills has dropped him down to the 15th rated prospect within the Wings.

http://www.freep.com/sports/redwings/pprgiz8_20040108.htm

Yeah. it looked like they were going on outdated information. On the other hand, they didn't have much to say about Filpulla, whose stock is on the rise.

 

[Evilo]

Look genius, the 6 year time frame was not brought up by me (feel free to research the thread and verify). Get over it and yourself. The only one trying to make anybody look bad here is you. I'd expect better from someone who calls himself a moderator.

As for backing up my opinions, you can expect to see an evaluation of the Caps and Pens drafts for the last 6 years in the next day or so, right here in this thread. Read it if you like, and we'll all see if you have the sack to give any worthwhile commentary.

Hey Einstein, whether you take the 6 year mark or not your whole point is false.
So what can you say?
If you don't take the 6 years limit, the Pens have produced quite a few first rounders.
If you take it, there's very few first rounders tearing it up without being slam dunks picks.
In any case you're wrong.
Think you could make yourself look worse than carrying on arguing without backing it up?
And in fact I'm 100% acting like a mod (though I'm not a mod on this board). You attacked Jacob with arguments you couldn't back up. I just pointed that out, but it seems like you can't face it.
Sorry for you.

 

[GodZillaAteMyZamboni]

Hey Einstein, whether you take the 6 year mark or not your whole point is false.
So what can you say?
If you don't take the 6 years limit, the Pens have produced quite a few first rounders.
If you take it, there's very few first rounders tearing it up without being slam dunks picks.
In any case you're wrong.
Think you could make yourself look worse than carrying on arguing without backing it up?
And in fact I'm 100% acting like a mod (though I'm not a mod on this board). You attacked Jacob with arguments you couldn't back up. I just pointed that out, but it seems like you can't face it.
Sorry for you.

You say I'm wrong for saying the Pens have drafted no one in the last 6 years whose tearing up the NHL, then you turn around and say the same thing?

Quote "If you take it, there's very few first rounders tearing it up without being slam dunks picks."

Forget it man. I don't need this pissing contest. If you want to act an ass, have at it. Reviewing a few of your replies in other threads it seems that you excel at that, but you'll be doing it without me.

Bye Bye now.