Hockey Renaissance?

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PecaFan

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Nov 16, 2002
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Spungo said:
I'll say it right now. Mark my words. There *will* be a hockey renaissance. The NHL will be bigger 5 years from now than it ever has been.

Well, I don't know about a renaissance, but I will go on record as saying the harm from the lockout will be negligible. Most folks are predicting huge damage that will take years to repair, I think when hockey starts up in September attendance etc will be practically indistinguishable from 03/04. Fans are just going to pick up where they left off, and just slough off the loss of last season.

Why do I believe this? Because hockey is a fringe sport, with diehard fans. *Especially* in the US. It takes some real effort to be a hockey fan in the US, you practically have to search to follow the sport. Diehards won't let the loss of a season turn them off, not in any appreciable numbers. Since it was an entire season, it's not like in baseball, where many fans were angered because they were in first place, and lost a shot at the championship. Since the season never started, few developed that level of anger.

As for Canada, that's where the casual fans are, the kind that are most likely to not come back. And there's more than enough diehards to make up for the loss of any casual fans.
 

Spungo*

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nyr7andcounting said:
But Edmonton isn't going to gain any NEW fans because it's all of the sudden financially competative with the Rangers. The same goes for Calgary, Vancouver, Montreal, Ottawa. Those teams are pretty much as big as they are going to get in those markets and those teams have been competative anyway. They are already getting the most revenue they can out of their markets...the only way they are going to get more is a national TV deal and that depends on the game on the ice not off of it.


How can you say that? Carolina went to the finals a few years ago, is their market any stronger now? You seem to miss the point that if all goes well and every team is competative for players that means they'll make the playoffs roughly every other year. 30 teams, 16 spots. There are exceptions of course, but if you look at Carolina's last 4 years that's about what they are going to look for under the new CBA. Playoffs, finals, miss, miss. 2 out of 4 years in the playoffs. Did that grow the Carolina market?


As you said, they are selling out, so the fans seem to be sticking around fine so far. They might be a little more competative, but how much more money are they going to make if they are already selling out?


That has a negative affect on the owners pockets, not on the league. The most important thing for the league is to have an exciting game on the ice, and as I said getting a new CBA is ONLY about money. There won't be any renaissance of any kind until the NHL improves the game on the ice.

I agree with you the game on the ice is extremely important, and maybe even the most important. But you are way underestimating what a level playing field means to each market. You only used Candian teams as your examples. And 3 of those teams would likely be moved, regardless of fan support without a new CBA. Add the fact that Montreal can't even sell out their building anymore because fans have become jaded after seeing their once proud franshise being reduced to a feeder team.

Your Carolina example is a great one, but for my side of the argument. They did great business when they were successful. Believe it or not, there was a hockey buzz in Carolina that year. Fans there know full well that there is no hope of competing year after year because they just don't have the cash to compete and lost interest. Sure, there might be one lucky year once in a while, but you can forget about going to the playoffs every year like Toronto, Detroit, Dallas, Philladelphia, Coloarado, etc.

You can have the greatest game in the world, but if your home team has no chance of competing then fans lose interest. E.g. Baseball in Toronto and Montreal. MLB is as exciting as it's ever been but that doesn't help markets that have no hope. Fans stay away no matter how good the game is. I used to love the Jays but I have no interest in rooting for a minor league feeder team so I hardly watch them anymore.

Fans don't need to win a cup every year, but they demand a fair shot. That's what this CBA gives all 30 teams. And I think you are underestimating how important that is. Every team will only be 2-3 years away from making a serious run at a cup if they are managed right. That's exciting for fans in every market. There is something very unappealing about an unfair league. It turns fans off. I know it turns me off baseball. The NFL is a very fair league and their CBA and salary cap in particular is it's main strength as far as I'm concerned.

I'm in total agreement about the game itself being extremely important, but it doesn't make much difference how exciting the sport is if your team has no chance to compete year after year. The CBA is equallly important in my books.
 

BLONG7

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Spungo said:
Look at the percentages, they aren't selling out all their games. This is Montre-frickin'-all here. Look at all the teams at 100%. Heck, even Los Angeles sells out more than Montreal. Something is very wrong there.
The Habs have the best attendance overall...21273 is there capacity, and at 96.6% capacity is still more than everyone else even when they sell out...How many fans in LA constitute a sellout? 17500???
 

nyr7andcounting

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Feb 24, 2004
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Spungo said:
I agree with you the game on the ice is extremely important, and maybe even the most important. But you are way underestimating what a level playing field means to each market. You only used Candian teams as your examples. And 3 of those teams would likely be moved, regardless of fan support without a new CBA. Add the fact that Montreal can't even sell out their building anymore because fans have become jaded after seeing their once proud franshise being reduced to a feeder team.
Because those are most of the small markets. You seem to think that an expansion in small markets is going to create a hockey "renaissance". As I said, half of those markets don't have anymore growing to do.

I mean what small markets are going to grow further because they are fiscally competitive year after year (not necassarily competative on the ice though)? Nashville, Florida, Phoenix, Carolina, Buffalo? As I said, the amount of growth in those markets because they can now spend the same amount as Detroit isn't going to have an affect on this.

Most of the markets that have room to grow are the big ones...NY and LA in particular...and this CBA isn't going to do that at all.

Spungo said:
Your Carolina example is a great one, but for my side of the argument. They did great business when they were successful. Believe it or not, there was a hockey buzz in Carolina that year. Fans there know full well that there is no hope of competing year after year because they just don't have the cash to compete and lost interest. Sure, there might be one lucky year once in a while, but you can forget about going to the playoffs every year like Toronto, Detroit, Dallas, Philladelphia, Coloarado, etc.
And that's my point which you seemed to have missed. Under perfect financial competition (which mostly translates to on ice competition) in a 30 team league, with 16 playoff teams, most teams will make the playoffs roughly every other year. And as you pointed out, that hasn't helped to grow the Carolina market in the past 4 years has it?
 

Spungo*

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nyr7andcounting said:
Because those are most of the small markets. You seem to think that an expansion in small markets is going to create a hockey "renaissance". As I said, half of those markets don't have anymore growing to do.

I mean what small markets are going to grow further because they are fiscally competitive year after year (not necassarily competative on the ice though)? Nashville, Florida, Phoenix, Carolina, Buffalo? As I said, the amount of growth in those markets because they can now spend the same amount as Detroit isn't going to have an affect on this.

Most of the markets that have room to grow are the big ones...NY and LA in particular...and this CBA isn't going to do that at all.


And that's my point which you seemed to have missed. Under perfect financial competition (which mostly translates to on ice competition) in a 30 team league, with 16 playoff teams, most teams will make the playoffs roughly every other year. And as you pointed out, that hasn't helped to grow the Carolina market in the past 4 years has it?

It's not about making the playoffs every other year under this system, (which is very inaccurate, but I'll let it slide). It's the knowledge that your team is competing on an even playing field. *That* is the point you are missing. And teams don't operate in a vacume either. The league as a whole being more balanced financially is healthy. We need more fans of the NHL, not necessarily more fans for one or two particular teams.

And your small market examples are terrible as they are all in Canada and you don't even list half of them. Here is a more accurate list of low payroll teams.

Pittsburgh
Carolina
Nashville
Atlanta
Buffalo
Florida
Calgary
Edmonton
Columbus
Tampa Bay
Minnesota
 

nyr7andcounting

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Feb 24, 2004
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Spungo said:
It's not about making the playoffs every other year under this system, (which is very inaccurate, but I'll let it slide). It's the knowledge that your team is competing on an even playing field. *That* is the point you are missing. And teams don't operate in a vacume either. The league as a whole being more balanced financially is healthy. We need more fans of the NHL, not necessarily more fans for one or two particular teams.

And your small market examples are terrible as they are all in Canada and you don't even list half of them. Here is a more accurate list of low payroll teams.

Pittsburgh
Carolina
Nashville
Atlanta
Buffalo
Florida
Calgary
Edmonton
Columbus
Tampa Bay
Minnesota
That's what I have been saying. Some of those markets are already as strong as they are going to be, the new CBA is simply going to make those fans happier. The only way the NHL has a "renaissance" is if they grow in markets like NY, LA, Chicago etc. Those are the markets where the most growth is possible, and they aren't going to grow in those markets because now Nashville can spend almost as much as the Rangers.

And what exactly is innaccurate about making the playoffs every other year? 30 teams, 16 spots. If every team is as competitive as they can be and every team has a shot, than you are going to make the playoffs roughly every other year. Certain teams will make it 5 in a row while some other teams will make it 1 out of 5. But other than that, markets like Carolina aren't going to have a whole lot more hope of being consistently good than they had under the old CBA. This CBA is about making sure the owners don't lose money, not about growing the leagues popularity. You do that by chaning the game on the ice.
 

Spungo*

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nyr7andcounting said:
That's what I have been saying. Some of those markets are already as strong as they are going to be, the new CBA is simply going to make those fans happier. The only way the NHL has a "renaissance" is if they grow in markets like NY, LA, Chicago etc. Those are the markets where the most growth is possible, and they aren't going to grow in those markets because now Nashville can spend almost as much as the Rangers.

And what exactly is innaccurate about making the playoffs every other year? 30 teams, 16 spots. If every team is as competitive as they can be and every team has a shot, than you are going to make the playoffs roughly every other year. Certain teams will make it 5 in a row while some other teams will make it 1 out of 5. But other than that, markets like Carolina aren't going to have a whole lot more hope of being consistently good than they had under the old CBA. This CBA is about making sure the owners don't lose money, not about growing the leagues popularity. You do that by chaning the game on the ice.

Carolina won't have more hope of being consistently good? Thats ridiculous. They had to rely on a fluke every year, now they can rely on good team management. Look at the NFL and the Patriots, a cap doesn't = 50/50 coin toss for success. And most of those teams I mentioned don't have as much success as they could, not even close. This new CBA = a healthy league = more fans in general. Fan support isn't in direct proportion to how your home team does. Maybe we just agree to disagree.
 

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OTTSENS said:
I am with you spungo, 5 years from now the nhl will better, stronger, and more exciting that never before. NBA and MLB watch out because the NHL is coming back with a vengeance.

:biglaugh:

They haven't even signed a new CBA yet and people are already talking like this.
 
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