Hockey people you don't like...

[chooch*]

I dont see any Beliveau or Rocket or Lafleur or Beliveau or Howe in this list now do I?

Gretzkyatics seem to want to deify 99 at any cost but many are now starting to see the light. He was a good player for 4 different teams but theres 2 sides to everything. Interested parties seek to suppress this.

btw - totally agree with you also about Gilles - I have a tape of Monaco 81 which is probably the greatest moment for a Canadian athlete ever. Even the corner workers jumped for joy when he passed Alan Jones for the lead with a few laps to go.

And his victory at Jarama was a brilliant measured race in the turbo 126C - considered one of the most tense races ever for what he did with the train of cars behind him almost the entire race (the "train in spain" win as its called).

 

[chooch*]

I don't care if he drinks, I really don't have a problem with that. Hell I am having a beer right now, there however is a difference between him drinking and him drinking at a party and then crashing his car into a pole at a very high rate of speed. That I do have a problem with.



Why would I have to consult a lawyer as under the basic Canadian libel laws as they are currently set forth have a number of restrictions placed upon them, and many of them come into play when dealing with this topic.



No need for a lawyer on this one, actually one could even make the arguement that this isn't in a public arena but rather a private forum in a personal communication and thus the libel laws would not apply. Come on buddy I am not saying that Guy Lafleur wasn't a great player, I won't come into every thread and spew the same retoric over and over again detracting from all other conversation, I won't do anything of the sort but at the same time to not realize that Guy had some problems would be foolish, he seems to have turned his life around which is actually admirable but I don't think that makes him a great person.

Thanks for your explanation; Fair is fair thats all. Mario was criticized incessantly and still is, and Guy and many others english and french. Seem like the only ones who cant handle the heat are Gretzky fans.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Considering plus/minus wasn't developed until 1968, it's pretty unfair to compare Gretzky to guys like Howe, Richard and Beliveau.

Here are the players who led their team in plus/minus most often:
Ray Bourque 10
Bobby Orr 8
Mark Howe 7
Bobby Clarke 6
Joe Reekie 6
Wayne Gretzky 6
Borje Salming 5
Craig Ramsay 5
Bert Marshall 4
Bryan Trottier 4
Chris Chelios 4
Chris Pronger 4
Eric Lindros 4
John LeClair 4
Larry Murphy 4
Larry Robinson 4
Mario Lemieux 4

(Digression: It's a disgrace Mark Howe is not in the Hall of Fame! Even if you want to completely ignore his time in the WHA, he's still qualified by almost any standard).

Here are the players who led the league in plus/minus more than once:
Bobby Orr 6
Wayne Gretzky 4
Chris Pronger 2
John Leclair 2

For the record, I have nothing against people criticizing Gretzky. It's just that this particular argument (he's a minus for the last 11 years) is a very poor one. A lot of HOF players (including Guy Lafleur, Bryan Trottier, Mark Messier, etc) were all minus's for a very long portion of their careers.

 

[reckoning]

I dont see any Beliveau or Rocket or Lafleur or Beliveau or Howe in this list now do I?

Plus/minus wasn`t officially recorded until `67-`68; Beliveau only played 4 NHL seasons after that, Howe played 5. Since the list concerned the last 11 years of a players career, they obviouslty wouldn`t be on it. Richard retired in `60, the stat was first recorded in `67-`68 - do the math.

As for Lafleur, how much of his plus/minus marks were solely because he had so many great teammates. In Lafleur`s thirteen full seasons in Montreal he only led the team in +/- once. Gretzky on the other hand,in nine seasons with the Oilers, led Edmonton in +/- six times (he just barely missed the other three years).

And why are you guys only looking at the last 11 years of a players career. Trying to only pick certain years to make Gretzky look bad? How about the first 11 years?:

Gretzky + 574
Lafleur + 488
Lemieux + 116

 

[reckoning]

Here are the players who led their team in plus/minus most often:
Ray Bourque 10
Bobby Orr 8
Mark Howe 7
Bobby Clarke 6
Joe Reekie 6
Wayne Gretzky 6
Borje Salming 5
Craig Ramsay 5
Bert Marshall 4
Bryan Trottier 4
Chris Chelios 4
Chris Pronger 4
Eric Lindros 4
John LeClair 4
Larry Murphy 4
Larry Robinson 4
Mario Lemieux 4

(Digression: It's a disgrace Mark Howe is not in the Hall of Fame! Even if you want to completely ignore his time in the WHA, he's still qualified by almost any standard).

Thanks for printing that list, it`s something I wanted to do but never started. Always considered Joe Reekie to be an underrated defensive defenceman, but I`m stunned to see him that that high. Bert Marshall is a shocker too.

I also agree completely about Mark Howe belonging in the Hall of Fame. I`ve promoted that cause in vain on here several times.

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

I dont see any Beliveau or Rocket or Lafleur or Beliveau or Howe in this list now do I?

Nice post champ. Four of the five predate the use of the statistic. DIdn't see Eddie Shore or Odie Cleghorn either, did you... Maybe the next time you, your dad & Marcel Dionne share a smoke with King Clancy you should have them explain a bvit about hockey history so you don't embarass yourself so often..

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Nice post champ. Four of the five predate the use of the statistic. DIdn't see Eddie Shore or Odie Cleghorn either, did you... Maybe the next time you, your dad & Marcel Dionne share a smoke with King Clancy you should have them explain a bvit about hockey history so you don't embarass yourself so often..

Yeah laugh but we'll see who will be laughing when your team doesn't even make the playoffs this year.

 

[Vincent_TheGreat]

Some of you are real petty! Now for my petty rant! I hate Jeremy Roenick, the guy is an A-hole! Every time he opens his mouth its more un-intelligent banter which sounds like a druken trash can spewing crap! Get a grip Roenick, its ok to be passionate and outspoken, but not dumb, embarrassing and completely out of control!

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

Yeah laugh but we'll see who will be laughing when your team doesn't even make the playoffs this year.

Boy, you've got a refreshing wit Do you write your own stuff, or do you find it in the back of the 1971-72 Kings media guide along with Marcel Dionne's profile??

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Boy, you've got a refreshing wit Do you write your own stuff, or do you find it in the back of the 1971-72 Kings media guide along with Marcel Dionne's profile??

Your posts dont make sense Bucky.. ever went to school son?

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

thats a pretty accurate list; but Ray Bourque?? I 'd be open to listening to reasons.

He was a management stooge in Boston. I don't mind loyalty to a team, but he had his nose so far up Sinden's ass it wasn't funny.

 

[RangerBlues]

Harry Sinden-The worst exec in the game

Jim Dolan- The worst owner in the game

Mike Millbury-The dumbest GM in the world, any sport

Barry Melrose- All you need to do is listen to him on TV to know why he will never be behind a NHL bench

Marc Crawford- A clown and a thug, should have been thrown out with Bertuzi

And finally
The Montreal habnots organization and their fans YEAH BABY!

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

Your posts dont make sense Bucky.. ever went to school son?

Say again?? You think your posts with your reminiscences of your father living in LA and watching Marcel Dionne and the Kings in 1971 make sense?? How about your questioning of "what the hell does smoking have to do with playing hockey"? If I were you, I'd be pretty slow to question if someone else makes sense. Let's recall what moneyp said:

Hey, K-10, you've claimed to see Lafleur play live, right?

Then how come, on the Marcel Dionne thread, you wrote:

"Ok um I havent really had the upportunity to watch him play either but my dad has informed me of his greatness as he's 3 years older then Dionne."

Your dad is three years older than Marcel Dionne, yet you saw The Flower play, is that right? Did you go back in time or something?

Curious,
MoneyP

Then you drove your foot all the way down to your stomach with this gem:

Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
My dad is 62.. isnt Dionne like 59 or something? My dad left me and my mom for a couple years to live in LA in 1970 or something when I was only 8 because his job was much better in LA. So he went to a lot of LA games so he really knows Dionne much more then me and was a lot older and mature when Dionne was at his prime. I admit he's a better hockey guy then me.

Sadly, we all know dionne didn't become a King until 75/76, and there's a noted difference between being 8 and 13...

and bring out the propellers for the guy who's seen em all, but missed the hall of fame career of Marcel Dionne, who retired the second highest scorer of all time

Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Oh please you probably starting watching in the 1990-s, we've been watching since the late 60-s ok.

Congratulations, you're the best.

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

Say again?? You think your posts with your reminiscences of your father living in LA and watching Marcel Dionne and the Kings in 1971 make sense?? How about your questioning of "what the hell does smoking have to do with playing hockey"? If I were you, I'd be pretty slow to question if someone else makes sense. Let's recall what moneyp said:

Hey, K-10, you've claimed to see Lafleur play live, right?

Then how come, on the Marcel Dionne thread, you wrote:

"Ok um I havent really had the upportunity to watch him play either but my dad has informed me of his greatness as he's 3 years older then Dionne."

Your dad is three years older than Marcel Dionne, yet you saw The Flower play, is that right? Did you go back in time or something?

Curious,
MoneyP

Then you drove your foot all the way down to your stomach with this gem:

Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
My dad is 62.. isnt Dionne like 59 or something? My dad left me and my mom for a couple years to live in LA in 1970 or something when I was only 8 because his job was much better in LA. So he went to a lot of LA games so he really knows Dionne much more then me and was a lot older and mature when Dionne was at his prime. I admit he's a better hockey guy then me.

Sadly, we all know dionne didn't become a King until 75/76, and there's a noted difference between being 8 and 13...

and bring out the propellers for the guy who's seen em all, but missed the hall of fame career of Marcel Dionne, who retired the second highest scorer of all time

Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Oh please you probably starting watching in the 1990-s, we've been watching since the late 60-s ok.
Congratulations, you're the best.

OWNED...

 

[dru]

wow - that's some extreme pwnage.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Thanks for printing that list, it`s something I wanted to do but never started. Always considered Joe Reekie to be an underrated defensive defenceman, but I`m stunned to see him that that high. Bert Marshall is a shocker too.

I also agree completely about Mark Howe belonging in the Hall of Fame. I`ve promoted that cause in vain on here several times.

No problem. With excel, these lists are easy and fun to make.

I was definitely surprised to see Reekie rank that high too. He was such a bad scorer too--overall this data indicates that Reekie may be one of the best purely defensive players ever.

Bert Marshall was also a bit of a surprise. Perhaps he should get more credit for holding the Islanders together in the early years? It's a shame he retired the year before their dynasty started.

My personal favorite was seeing Craig Ramsay rank high on that list. What a great all-around player.

In regards to Howe... it's a shame he wasn't voted in this year, I easily would have voted for him over Neely (though I really don't want to start the Neely debate again...), and a few other years as well. Howe will probably have to wait a long time now.

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Say again?? You think your posts with your reminiscences of your father living in LA and watching Marcel Dionne and the Kings in 1971 make sense?? How about your questioning of "what the hell does smoking have to do with playing hockey"? If I were you, I'd be pretty slow to question if someone else makes sense. Let's recall what moneyp said:

Hey, K-10, you've claimed to see Lafleur play live, right?

Then how come, on the Marcel Dionne thread, you wrote:

"Ok um I havent really had the upportunity to watch him play either but my dad has informed me of his greatness as he's 3 years older then Dionne."

Your dad is three years older than Marcel Dionne, yet you saw The Flower play, is that right? Did you go back in time or something?

Curious,
MoneyP

Then you drove your foot all the way down to your stomach with this gem:

Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
My dad is 62.. isnt Dionne like 59 or something? My dad left me and my mom for a couple years to live in LA in 1970 or something when I was only 8 because his job was much better in LA. So he went to a lot of LA games so he really knows Dionne much more then me and was a lot older and mature when Dionne was at his prime. I admit he's a better hockey guy then me.

Sadly, we all know dionne didn't become a King until 75/76, and there's a noted difference between being 8 and 13...

and bring out the propellers for the guy who's seen em all, but missed the hall of fame career of Marcel Dionne, who retired the second highest scorer of all time

Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Oh please you probably starting watching in the 1990-s, we've been watching since the late 60-s ok.

Congratulations, you're the best.

Sadly punk I dont go around looking at my history year by year for some unknowledgeable hockey fans who are a disgrace for the sport itself. I dont remember 30 years ago like it was yesterday kid.

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

Sadly punk I dont go around looking at my history year by year for some unknowledgeable hockey fans who are a disgrace for the sport itself. I dont remember 30 years ago like it was yesterday kid.

Your "I got owned by BBB" t-shirt is in the mail!! Wear it with pride!

 

[mcphee]

Harry Sinden-The worst exec in the game

Jim Dolan- The worst owner in the game

Mike Millbury-The dumbest GM in the world, any sport

Barry Melrose- All you need to do is listen to him on TV to know why he will never be behind a NHL bench

Marc Crawford- A clown and a thug, should have been thrown out with Bertuzi

And finally
The Montreal habnots organization and their fans YEAH BABY!

Damn, until that last line,I was feeling such affection for you. So you add nots to Habs and you get Habnots. That's pretty good. That's kind of like a play on words right ?

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

Damn, until that last line,I was feeling such affection for you. So you add nots to Habs and you get Habnots. That's pretty good. That's kind of like a play on words right ?

Some of the best people I know are Habs fans. I even know a few Leafs fans that are pretty good folk.

 

[RangerBlues]

Damn, until that last line,I was feeling such affection for you. So you add nots to Habs and you get Habnots. That's pretty good. That's kind of like a play on words right ?

I must be honest, the term habnots came from the back page of the NY Dailynews after the Rangers lost a playoff series against the Canadiens. It always has stuck in my head, Ive been calling them that eversince. And taking shots at the Habs just seems natural to me.

 

[chooch*]

He was a management stooge in Boston. I don't mind loyalty to a team, but he had his nose so far up Sinden's ass it wasn't funny.

Interesting; i'm a st laurent guy too so I 'd be curious about this. I thought he had a big fight with sinden over salary? Had never heard about being a stooge. examples?

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

I must be honest, the term habnots came from the back page of the NY Dailynews after the Rangers lost a playoff series against the Canadiens. It always has stuck in my head, Ive been calling them that eversince. And taking shots at the Habs just seems natural to me.

80's years of having your asses handed to you will make you bitter.

 

[RangerBlues]

I must be honest, the term habnots came from the back page of the NY Dailynews after the Rangers lost a playoff series against the Canadiens. It always has stuck in my head, Ive been calling them that eversince. And taking shots at the Habs just seems natural to me.

A quick story. Last Thanksgiving I was taking a flight to Disney to meet my wife and kids for the holiday, I met some guy named Mike who was from Montreal and was a huge Habs fan. We sat next to eachother on the flight and told him about this site. We had a great time talking hockey and told him when this thing was all settled I'd see him at this site.
Its all in fun, I love this game.
but
The Habs still suck!!!!!!

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Interesting; i'm a st laurent guy too so I 'd be curious about this. I thought he had a big fight with sinden over salary? Had never heard about being a stooge. examples?

Other than one single arbitration hearing he never stood up for himself. He created the Ray Bourque salary cap in Boston, affecting the salaries of every Bruin and every NHL d-man. Some people may say hooray for that, but I see a spineless twirp.