Hockey mom wants daughter allowed in boys' change room

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Chilly Willy*

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La-La-Laprise said:
How are her rights being infringed upon?

Can someone sue to be able to use the other sex's restrooms? Because if so a bunch of guys would be filing class action law suits.


Yeah if a girl wants to use the boys changingroom with the boys, next time i want to take a piss, i should be allowed to walk into the girls bathroom with the potpurri in the air and have a relaxing piss.

It's only fair, girls want to start this stupid game, lets play.

First the equal workplace thing, that is something that was worth fighting for, for the women, then there was the army stuff, another good fight, but now its just turning stupid. What do you want to complain about next? Can't say Mankind anymore?

Don't want to be called Women because it has men, so u want a new term?

Don't like the flap guys have in their boxer's and underwear so you want to sue for that too cuz its unfair when u want to wear them?

If the girl wants to change in the same room as boys then you know what, screw stalls and everything else let her change infront of themselves just how the guys do, let her stand there in her panties and bra and everything, she wants to be fair, lets be fair, u do what the boys do, no exceptions no extra mile to make your sorry asses happy.

Girls had that extra mile with a whole dressing room to themselves, now they want to share and still have that same privacy...nope, u want to share, u share the same damn way guys do.



:p: :p: :p: :p:
 

canadahockeygirl*

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Looks like someone needs to get laid so he's not as cranky in the morning! :)
 

grapeshine

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Note to board: a dressing room full of 14-year-olds isn't exactly a hot bed of lewdness and cruelty, but for the simple fact that there's typically at least two coaches in the room at all times. I think a lot of you are selling 14-year-old boys a little short: most of them understand the difference between right and wrong, more-so than some of the people who posted in this thread.
 

Chilly Willy*

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canadahockeygirl said:
Looks like someone needs to get laid so he's not as cranky in the morning! :)


That's all you have to say?

They want to be fair, lets be fair, change infront of everyone like the boys do, get no special treatment.
 

canadahockeygirl*

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ChillyWilly said:
That's all you have to say?

They want to be fair, lets be fair, change infront of everyone like the boys do, get no special treatment.
Well, if you'd really like to know what I'm thinking, I think you're acting very childish and making obtuse arguments that have nothing to do with the case at hand, which is why I refused to reply intelligently to it. The road goes both ways. If you want to hear something good in response to something you've posted, it needs to start with you. Not this BS diatribe on feminism.

You're reaching so far out into left field that I think you've gone over the fence, and quite honestly, the argument was very unintelligible. So are you anti-womens rights, or anti-locker room for chicks?
 

Chilly Willy*

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canadahockeygirl said:
Well, if you'd really like to know what I'm thinking, I think you're acting very childish and making obtuse arguments that have nothing to do with the case at hand, which is why I refused to reply intelligently to it. The road goes both ways. If you want to hear something good in response to something you've posted, it needs to start with you. Not this BS diatribe on feminism.

You're reaching so far out into left field that I think you've gone over the fence, and quite honestly, the argument was very unintelligible. So are you anti-womens rights, or anti-locker room for chicks?


So saying someone needs to get laid is not a childish remark?

C'mon now, you call me childish but you say something that is pretty pathetic and childish?

The fact is, the mom wants her daughter to share a dressingroom with boys, if she wants that then so be it, but the girl should not get any special treatment.

She was getting her special treatment with her own dressingroom now she wants to be with the boys in the same room, so get comfortable and change infront of them, they should not modify the dressingrooms to make it co-ed, keep it the way it has been for years.

Fair is fair.
 

LaLaLaprise

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Feb 28, 2002
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grapeshine said:
Note to board: a dressing room full of 14-year-olds isn't exactly a hot bed of lewdness and cruelty, but for the simple fact that there's typically at least two coaches in the room at all times. I think a lot of you are selling 14-year-old boys a little short: most of them understand the difference between right and wrong, more-so than some of the people who posted in this thread.

All it takes is 1 kid. Im sure most of the 14 year old kids playing hockey are good kids but like i said, 1 kid ruins it for everyone. And im not sure but i wouldnt want to take that chance.
 

Sideline

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La-La-Laprise said:
How are her rights being infringed upon?

Can someone sue to be able to use the other sex's restrooms? Because if so a bunch of guys would be filing class action law suits.

We have equality written into the charter. The same legal argument for gay marriage is the argument that will be used here: separate, but equal is not equal. I’m not a constitutional expert by any means so I can’t speak to weather a privacy right trumps an equality right, I guess it would depend on the judge. This is one of those lovely cases where lawyers make lots of money.
 

LaLaLaprise

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Feb 28, 2002
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Sideline said:
We have equality written into the charter. The same legal argument for gay marriage is the argument that will be used here: separate, but equal is not equal. I’m not a constitutional expert by any means so I can’t speak to weather a privacy right trumps an equality right, I guess it would depend on the judge. This is one of those lovely cases where lawyers make lots of money.

Im not saying it cant be challenged but how are HER rights being infringed upon? What about the guys who dont want a chick seeing them change? What about their rights?

Like I said if the shoe was on the other foot people would be saying the 20 girls rights are being infringed upon and NOT the single male who wants to change with the girls.
 

billberg

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So what happens when there are two girls on the team and one wants in the changeroom while the other one doesn't? This creates a pressure situation which forces the girl who does not want in to make a choice which results in her being excluded from the team or put in a situation which is uncomfortable. There shouldn't be an option, girls should have to change in a separate room.

The people this mother should be after are the people forcing her daughter to change in bathrooms, boiler rooms, etc.. As stated in above posts, this mother will be the first to slap a lawsuit on one of the kids if they make an off-colour comment or gesture.
 

Sideline

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La-La-Laprise said:
Im not saying it cant be challenged but how are HER rights being infringed upon? What about the guys who dont want a chick seeing them change? What about their rights?

Like I said if the shoe was on the other foot people would be saying the 20 girls rights are being infringed upon and NOT the single male who wants to change with the girls.
She's not being allowed to use the same facilities as the opposite gender becasue of her gender. I agree with what you’re saying I’m just saying what the law is.
 

canadahockeygirl*

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ChillyWilly said:
So saying someone needs to get laid is not a childish remark?

C'mon now, you call me childish but you say something that is pretty pathetic and childish?

The fact is, the mom wants her daughter to share a dressingroom with boys, if she wants that then so be it, but the girl should not get any special treatment.

She was getting her special treatment with her own dressingroom now she wants to be with the boys in the same room, so get comfortable and change infront of them, they should not modify the dressingrooms to make it co-ed, keep it the way it has been for years.

Fair is fair.
Actually tough guy, what I was referring to was the peripheral arguments that you brought up, ie. women's rights, NOT the locker room.
 

The Nemesis

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Lol, I didn't think I would be coming back to this , but I guess the situation warrents some more discussion.

1) Equality means that all things are treated equally. This is not what is happening with this girl and her mother. Equality in this situation would demand that she be treated just like she were one of the boys. No clothing rule, no showering rule, no nothing unless it was in place before hand and is the standard in a locker room that is single gender. What this mother is fighting for is sort of an "equality +1" where she gets her daughter all the same rights as any boy, and then some extra ones to "protect" her. If she really thought locker room equality was a good idea, there should be no need for that protection.

2) I don't think everyone who's made the point of saying that something bad could conceivably happen expects the locker room to be some sort of rampant underage orgy or house of future sex offenders. We all understand that on the whole, 99% of kids are generally well behaved with a good set of moral values. The problem is that 1% that isn't or that indeterminate percentage that let their teenage hormones override their moral judgement. All that needs to happen is 1 kid pulling an inappropriate prank. 1 kid making a particularly obscene remark. 1 kid screwing it up, and then all hell breaks loose.

3) We live in a time where people will sue at the drop of a hat (almost literally. "Man sues restaurant for fallen hat" would not surprise me as a newspaper headline). If the above mentioned 1 kid does something stupid, any number of people could wind up suing. The girls family could sue for harassment. Hell, some lawyer could convince one of the boys' families to sue for the mental anguish of being emasculated by the presence of a girl in that locker room. Yeah, it all sounds ridiculous, but doesn't it sound equally ridiculous to sue a restaurant because you don't have the common sense to realize that the coffee you ordered just mightbe hot if you spill it on your lap? Or that someone might sue because a casino let them gamble away their money? Or that someone might sue another family because they feel that their son was unfairly robbed of their youth hockey MVP award? (btw, these are all real cases). Stupid lawsuits like this will usually go for the big bucks, and since no one family that would likely be involved in this hockey league is going to be filthy rich, it would mean attacking the league itself. If that happens, the league loses a lot of money, and then it might not have enough to continue funding the hockey programs to the depth and breadth that are normal for it. Then everyone loses.

4) As stupid as they all sound, I think the "why can't men use the women's bathrooms" arguments have some grounds. Yes I understand that the locker room includes coaching and team bonding, whereas normal use of a washroom doesn't. But what if I go into a store and need to use the washroom, only to find out that the mens' room is out of order. In these extenuating circumstances, am I allowed to use the ladies' room? Certainly not. I could easily argue that I would see less in a ladies room than this girl will see in the boys' locker room, since all the toilets are in separate stalls (unless women strip down as soon as they enter a washroom
winky.gif
).

I again want to say that I'm in no way trying to be chauvanistic, nor am I opposing equality or women's rights. If women want to be treated completely and totally equally, by all means go for it. It's just that this particular situation holds a higher than normal degree of probability of something bad happening, and a greater than normal set of consequences. Instances like this just have to trump individual rights. Think about it. What if you knew of a friend who is a visible minorty, but wanted to attend a KKK or similar meeting for some sort of sociology project? Sure they'd be wearing uniforms the whole time and there's a good chance that your friend doesn't get caught, but the possibility exists that he does, and given that possiblity wouldn't you do everything in your power to prevent them from putting themselves into a potentially harmful situation? Of course this is a far more extreme example than the locker room, since the consequences of racial hatred could only possibly be matched in a co-ed hockey locker room by a possible incidence of ****, but the point stands. In both situations, the party involved as every right to make their own decision and to put themselves into this situation, but common sense would probably say that it's not likely to be the most sensible idea.
 

JacketsFanWest

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As a female hockey player who's played on co-ed teams, there's absolutely no way I'd want to go into guys' locker rooms. Besides the smell and the jokes, there is a right to privacy for both genders that needs to be respected. I understand how female hockey players can feel like there are double standards and feel like outsiders on a team, but that doesn't mean sharing a locker room.

Here's a funny story. About 10 years ago at the Ohio State rink there were constant problem with a team of 12-13 year old boys who didn't have locker room space, so they took to changing right out in the middle of the lobby and boys were frequently walking around wearing only jock straps - right in front of young female figure skaters and the OSU Women's hockey team.

Eventually rules were posted that you were banned from the rink if not properly clothed in the lobby. The boys argued that the women's team got to walk around in sports bras, and since they didn't like to wear underwear under their hockey pants and they had to change in the lobby, then they should be permitted to walk around in only their jock straps. It boggles the mind! The strange thing is their moms were all pissed off the rink staff was yelling at them about it.

After dealing with those boys, I won't want my daughter sharing a locker room with them.
 

grapeshine

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This thread evolved into a tome on gender issues, when really the answer is obvious: arenas should have at least one dressing room designated as Womens. I don't see that there's much of a difference between changing for hockey and changing for gym class. I'm sorry that these girls don't get to fully participate in team camaraderie, but it's up to the coaches to come up with creative ways to involve them.
 

Jumptheshark

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As a male

I got no problem with females changing in front me

as long as the look like Halle Barry, Christina Ricci or a young Audrey Hepburn

as long as the down mind all the hawling
 

Holly Gunning

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grapeshine said:
This thread evolved into a tome on gender issues, when really the answer is obvious: arenas should have at least one dressing room designated as Womens.
That sounds great. But how are you going to create them, have a federal law that mandates that arenas build such locker rooms? Good luck getting it.

The problem comes about mostly because arenas do not have such facilities. It's a fact of life, the question is what do you do to adapt? Changing in the hallway or tiny ladies rooms is not a solution.
 

Choice

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I played club hockey in college and we had a couple girls on the team. We all used the same lockerroom for the most part and i never had a problem with it. They weren't good looking either, before anyone asks
 

Thibaj

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Dynamix said:
Sorry, I didn't explain it well, the access to the showers for the room is cut off from the actual other room,the lock is from the inside. This is meant for that situation.

This is not working, you have 4 teams at the same time: 2 on the ice, 2 in the dressing rooms. The 2 teams in the dressing rooms are using the 2 showers at the same time.
 

BrettNYR

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canadahockeygirl said:
I think you guys need to get out of the 1950's.

As long as I can remember, I've changed in the same locker rooms with guys. They've always walked around however they wanted, said whatever they've said and it's never been a big deal for me or any other female I know that grew up playing guys hockey OR the guys we've played with. It's no more a liability than if she were to change in a locker room with girls.
I'm a young teenager, and I would not feel comfortable with a girl in the locker room. It would completely change the way everybody acts. And I don't like the idea of a girl looking at me when I'm fully naked, because most teenage girls... Are well... Sluts... I'm sorry but the way teenagers are today, I would not want to change in front of the opposite sex. Some guys may pass comments about the girl. They will act differently around them. I'm pretty comfortable around girls, in fact, about half of my friends are girls, so it's not like I'm shy around them. But changing in front of them... Well, no. Especially at my age, when the interest about the opposite sex, for both sides, is pretty high. You're only asking for trouble if you put a girl in a guy's locker room.

And also, you're putting the girl in an awkward situation. At my age, not every guy is mature enough to handle being around a girl who is changing right in front of yoi.
 

OHLArenaGuide

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Here's a true story from Massachusetts. A couple of great big boys, football linebackers, decided to stay in shape in the off-season by taking up hockey - field hockey. Girls' field hockey. They tried to join their school's field hockey team, and were disallowed from joining because of being male. So they sued under Title IX and won - no sex discrimination allowed, and if a sport isn't offered in both boys and girls, the minority gender has to be allowed to play. As a result, they were allowed to change with the girls, to be on the field (220-lb boys and 120-lb girls don't mesh well if they hit each other). They caused several injuries in hitting girls and drove a lot of the girls to quit the team.

And what's wrong with this story? Absolutely nothing, if you subscribe to the idea that a 14-year-old girl should be allowed to change in the boys change room.

Either have it both ways or don't have it, but you can't have it one way and not the other.
 

Holly Gunning

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sec17 said:
They caused several injuries in hitting girls and drove a lot of the girls to quit the team.

And what's wrong with this story? Absolutely nothing, if you subscribe to the idea that a 14-year-old girl should be allowed to change in the boys change room.
Causing injuries and changing in the same locker room are separate problems. Did these guys cause problems in the locker room, or only on the field? Let's not just lump everything together and throw up our hands.
 

OHLArenaGuide

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Holly Gunning said:
Causing injuries and changing in the same locker room are separate problems. Did these guys cause problems in the locker room, or only on the field? Let's not just lump everything together and throw up our hands.

Well, let's just say the girls wanted the boys there about as much as the boys in Vancouver want the girl there.
 

Kritter471

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I've been kicked out of locker rooms in Texas. There are women's locker rooms in most of the facilities, but they're tiny don't give a lot of room for my stuff. So I prefer the bigger rooms that are better lit and have access to bathrooms that work all the time and are cleaned more often.

The times it's happened, the guys in there have said "we don't think you'll be comfortable." That's what drives me nuts about the situation - they're not owning up to that it's them that's uncomfortable in the situation, not me. I work in locker rooms. Guys make a much bigger deal out of me having to wear a sports bra than I do out of their habit of wandering around naked.

Moral: if the guy(s) is/are uncomfortable with a girl in the locker room, that's fine. Tell me to go somewhere else, provided there's an actual changing area with a bench and stuff for me to go to (because you try changing in a bathroom stall, sitting on a toilet to put your skates on). But don't try to play it off as me being uncomfortable. Step up and say "look, me/Billy/the team isn't comfortable with you changing with us." and I'll gladly skip on down the hall.

With adult leagues down here, men and women generally share locker rooms to dress and undress, but the women'll drag their bags down to the women's locker room to shower after the game and change back to street clothes. It works out well - that way before the games, you're not sharing a room with the women on the other team, you get to hear all the pre-game oratory and stuff, and you get the immediate de-brief after the game. But you're not making you/the guys uncomfortable by showering next to them.
 

Kritter471

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Air said:
Well, sort of. (Read on)

I just want to point out that a lot of this is happening in the NHL. Sort of. Female reporters and journalists are allowed in dressing rooms, where players are just coming from the shower and barely dressed. (Remember that video a while ago of some guy being interviewed while his teammate was showering naked in the background?) I know it's not the same thing because journalists aren't getting naked, but it's still equally as embarrassing for the girls because these are, after all, bucknaked athletes.
It's not embarassing at all. I'm a female journalist. I've covered NFL, hockey, soccer and Arena Football teams. It's not something you notice. You keep your eyes up and mind on what you're doing. Some guys give interviews naked, and, being 5'3", I'm right at the front of the media pack around him. But it's no big deal. They don't care, it's obviously not sexual, so why would it bother me?

Male journalists go into female dressing rooms. I think that was on an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond once.
Actually, most female professional teams don't have open locker rooms at all. They have access outside the locker room for all media members (male and female), but generally not an open locker policy.

However, you're correct in that those female teams with an open locker policy do let both male and female journalists in.
 
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