Hockey IQ on the Leafs

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
78,675
53,150
Is it safe to say a big part of the reason why the Leafs struggle year after year is due to their lack of hockey sense and intelligence? It seems like as a group we have an inordinate amount of guys with very poor vision, creativity and brains, especially under pressure, which leads to boneheaded meltdowns the moment they collectively sense a little bit of adversity.

Maybe it shouldn't come as a surprise to find a team built by a guy who valued belligerence and truculence over intelligence on the big roster for so many years. I do remember Burke, Nonis, Loiselle and Morrison talking about how they were specifically targeting intelligent hockey players at the 2012 draft in Finn and Rielly, so maybe they were conscious of rectifying the flaws of the current group for the next generation...

When you look at guys like Grabovski, Phaneuf, Kulemin, MacArthur and even Kessel and Gardiner, I can't help but think none of them are very smart savvy players.

Grabovski is just dumb as bricks. For a centerman, you rarely see a top sixer with such tunnel vision and inability to really find his teammates crisply and efficiently. He likes to push the puck ahead with his straight away speed, make an energetic, sloppy play in the offensive zone, nothing dangerous happens and the puck goes the other way. You rarely ever think, wow, Grabs really slowed down the play and set up _____ there.

Maybe it's a function of playing with a guy like Grabovski so much, but Kulemin seems to go go go with his hard work and then nothing dangerous happens in the offensive zone. Isn't he supposed to have very high intelligence? Didn't some people foolishly refer to him as someone who reminded them of Datsyuk once upon a time?

MacArthur also seems plagued by tunnel vision, elects to shoot the puck too much in low percentage plays and floats around a little too much for his abilities to justify.

Phaneuf is a moron. He can't correct his flaws, always makes dumb stretch passes to nowhere like he's pretending to be Scott Niedermayer and doesn't think before he shoots the puck. The guy makes Bryan McCabe look like Raymond Bourque.

Kessel is a thoroughbred, which is both a blessing and a curse. He uses his athletic gifts to create when he's on, namely his explosive speed and wrist shot, and actually is a great passer but suffers from Ovechkin's disease where he does things more on muscle memory than being able to read the play and make the proper adjustments, like when he beats a guy to the outside only to cut back inside for no apparent reason.

Gardiner, though we haven't seen much of him this year, also seems to be a bit of a thoroughbred. The guy can wheel like the best of them but he also seems like a guy who thrives going full throttle than making those smart little plays to get things done.

Then you have your revolving cast of players like Kostka, Fraser and Holzer who don't seem to always be able to think at the NHL pace, which is fair since they're recent AHL graduates.

Anyway, it doesn't really ever seem like we have a lot of smart players who can read the play properly, pressure other teams to make those subtle little mistakes or adequately take advantage and exploit situations when they arise. We are really dying for a couple of smart players like a Kimmo Timonen on defense or a Patrice Bergeron at center.
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
40,250
10,137
Your smartest player is...

Lupul

I think Grabs is smarter then you think though.
 

contour

Registered User
Mar 31, 2011
1,669
0
Bozak has pretty good hockey IQ. In fact, all forwards with above average defence usually have above hockey IQ.
 

lampshade*

Guest
Interesting read, had some laughs but fully agree for the most part. Although I think you gave Dijon a bit to much credit.
 

Riddarn

1980-2011
Aug 2, 2003
9,164
0
the problem isn't IQ

the problem is skill

Knowing where to be on the ice and what to do in different situations is a skill (or skills), in my opinion. Which is why Nick Lidström was so special.
 

diceman934

Help is on the way.
Jul 31, 2010
17,335
4,148
NHL player factory
Is it safe to say a big part of the reason why the Leafs struggle year after year is due to their lack of hockey sense and intelligence? It seems like as a group we have an inordinate amount of guys with very poor vision, creativity and brains, especially under pressure, which leads to boneheaded meltdowns the moment they collectively sense a little bit of adversity.

Maybe it shouldn't come as a surprise to find a team built by a guy who valued belligerence and truculence over intelligence on the big roster for so many years. I do remember Burke, Nonis, Loiselle and Morrison talking about how they were specifically targeting intelligent hockey players at the 2012 draft in Finn and Rielly, so maybe they were conscious of rectifying the flaws of the current group for the next generation...

When you look at guys like Grabovski, Phaneuf, Kulemin, MacArthur and even Kessel and Gardiner, I can't help but think none of them are very smart savvy players.

Grabovski is just dumb as bricks. For a centerman, you rarely see a top sixer with such tunnel vision and inability to really find his teammates crisply and efficiently. He likes to push the puck ahead with his straight away speed, make an energetic, sloppy play in the offensive zone, nothing dangerous happens and the puck goes the other way. You rarely ever think, wow, Grabs really slowed down the play and set up _____ there.

Maybe it's a function of playing with a guy like Grabovski so much, but Kulemin seems to go go go with his hard work and then nothing dangerous happens in the offensive zone. Isn't he supposed to have very high intelligence? Didn't some people foolishly refer to him as someone who reminded them of Datsyuk once upon a time?

MacArthur also seems plagued by tunnel vision, elects to shoot the puck too much in low percentage plays and floats around a little too much for his abilities to justify.

Phaneuf is a moron. He can't correct his flaws, always makes dumb stretch passes to nowhere like he's pretending to be Scott Niedermayer and doesn't think before he shoots the puck. The guy makes Bryan McCabe look like Raymond Bourque.

Kessel is a thoroughbred, which is both a blessing and a curse. He uses his athletic gifts to create when he's on, namely his explosive speed and wrist shot, and actually is a great passer but suffers from Ovechkin's disease where he does things more on muscle memory than being able to read the play and make the proper adjustments, like when he beats a guy to the outside only to cut back inside for no apparent reason.

Gardiner, though we haven't seen much of him this year, also seems to be a bit of a thoroughbred. The guy can wheel like the best of them but he also seems like a guy who thrives going full throttle than making those smart little plays to get things done.

Then you have your revolving cast of players like Kostka, Fraser and Holzer who don't seem to always be able to think at the NHL pace, which is fair since they're recent AHL graduates.

Anyway, it doesn't really ever seem like we have a lot of smart players who can read the play properly, pressure other teams to make those subtle little mistakes or adequately take advantage and exploit situations when they arise. We are really dying for a couple of smart players like a Kimmo Timonen on defense or a Patrice Bergeron at center.

I would say that Kadri is one player thus far who has shown to be a player who understands the game better then most have ever gave him Credit for.

I also can not disagree with this post....did you see Dion drill JVR with the puck tonight in the ribs....
 

johnny_rudeboy

Registered User
Mar 20, 2006
19,566
418
Karlstad
The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man.
Sun Tzu

We need some stupid ones to. But preferably that would be bottom line wingers. When your best players is the ones lacking hockey sense and make bonehead plays then you are in trouble.

Agree with what you said and really think this is something management started to deal with 2 years ago when they drafted Percy and the year after drafted Reilly and Finn. All 3 are said to have high hockey IQ and who plays an efficient game with few mistakes.
 

weems

Registered User
Jul 3, 2008
17,974
11,281
Hockeysense might be the most undervalued skill/trait in the sport.
Its like that commercial where Marcus Allen says "Some players just know and others havent a clue" or soemthing of that nature. It's also quite hard to have a smart team on the ice when you have a captain that is playing something like 27 minutes a night and has some of the worst hockeysense in the entire league.
 

johnny_rudeboy

Registered User
Mar 20, 2006
19,566
418
Karlstad
Another reason why it is important to hold on to Gunnarsson, Bozak and Kulemin who I think you wrongfully singled out as having low hockey sense. Not the flashiest players but probably the most solid ones. But Gunnarsson is not a first pairing guy and Bozak is not a #1 center, they are still good players.
 

Ricky Bobby

Registered User
Aug 31, 2008
8,457
312
Take a below average team and subtract one of its first line winger (Lupul) and 3 of it's top 6 dmen (Gunnar, Gardiner and Komi) and of course the team looks lost.

Toronto is headed in the right direction and have cleaned up a lot since Carlyle came in but with almost no training camp, significant injuries and little practice time when errors our made (especially by our captain who is being converted to the left side which he has never played) then that usually results in a scoring chance against us.
 

Judas Tavares

S2S (Sundin2Sandin)
Sponsor
Feb 9, 2007
10,188
3,632
Phaneuf is dumb as a knob and it pains me as he is one of my favorite players. It looked like there was something up there in Calgary but not anymore. Very frustrating. I agree about MacArthur too. I think Kessel is more selfish than dumb. I wish someone would bank it off his ass already so he would stop.

Holzer and Kostka looked very dumb yesterday, but it is too early to tell.
 

JAMmer124

Independent Living
Aug 13, 2010
5,415
1
Welland, Ontario
Agree with most of your post other than Kulemin. He's a very, very intelligent hockey player. Always in the right position, making the right decisions, knows exactly what to do in any situation. Anytime you have a guy playing 2nd line minutes, getting power play time as well as a lot of penalty kill time, you know he's gotta be a pretty good hold on the game.

Kadri is our smartest player offensively IMO. You don't see anyone on our squad slow the play down and back off defenders to make a good pass like he does, or nearly as often as he does. Patience with the puck and the ability to slow a game down is a sign of high Hockey IQ, and often it's what seperately the "good" players from the "great" ones.
 

johnny_rudeboy

Registered User
Mar 20, 2006
19,566
418
Karlstad
Agree with most of your post other than Kulemin. He's a very, very intelligent hockey player. Always in the right position, making the right decisions, knows exactly what to do in any situation. Anytime you have a guy playing 2nd line minutes, getting power play time as well as a lot of penalty kill time, you know he's gotta be a pretty good hold on the game.

Kadri is our smartest player offensively IMO. You don't see anyone on our squad slow the play down and back off defenders to make a good pass like he does, or nearly as often as he does. Patience with the puck and the ability to slow a game down is a sign of high Hockey IQ, and often it's what seperately the "good" players from the "great" ones.

I agree, I to see some traits in him that Forsberg, Thornton was/is so good at like slowing down the game, make a pass to some one in the right moment when the defenders sticks are just out of the way etc.Still early days but I said early on that he reminded me a little about Forsberg (see this more of a comparison in terms of style, after all Forsberg a HHOF great was drafted 6th overall and did not enter the NHL until 3 years later when he had added some muscles to his rather small frame...).
 

BonMorrison

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
33,683
9,468
Toronto, ON
Bozak is the smartest player on our team, he just doesn't have offensive upside to show it. That's why if he was played in a defensive role, he would blossum.
 

613Leafer

Registered User
May 26, 2008
12,827
3,652
Bozak is the smartest player on our team, he just doesn't have offensive upside to show it. That's why if he was played in a defensive role, he would blossum.

I agree.

Our blueline sucks largely due to poor hockey IQ.

Phaneuf, Franson, and Komi are all on the lower end of the hockey IQ scale.
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
40,250
10,137
Agree with most of your post other than Kulemin. He's a very, very intelligent hockey player. Always in the right position, making the right decisions, knows exactly what to do in any situation. Anytime you have a guy playing 2nd line minutes, getting power play time as well as a lot of penalty kill time, you know he's gotta be a pretty good hold on the game.

Kadri is our smartest player offensively IMO. You don't see anyone on our squad slow the play down and back off defenders to make a good pass like he does, or nearly as often as he does. Patience with the puck and the ability to slow a game down is a sign of high Hockey IQ, and often it's what seperately the "good" players from the "great" ones.

Kadri is smart but he lacks an important complimentry skill, patience, he like many other smart players is a gambler.

Guns is very smart, he covers who he needs to and is steady.

Reilly is probably going to be the smartest by a longshot in a few years
 

MakeTheIronSing

Registered User
Oct 13, 2011
1,299
39
Edmonton
Anyway, it doesn't really ever seem like we have a lot of smart players who can read the play properly, pressure other teams to make those subtle little mistakes or adequately take advantage and exploit situations when they arise. We are really dying for a couple of smart players like a Kimmo Timonen on defense or a Patrice Bergeron at center.

I keep getting a feeling lately that non-hockey players that sit behind a computer screen somehow think they know more than actual hockey players about playing hockey.

But that can't be right?
 

GordieHoweHatTrick

Registered User
Sep 20, 2009
16,461
280
Toronto
I agree with you Stephen.

Phaneuf would have been ideal in the clutch-and-grab era of hockey. Since the tempo of the game sped up you need guys who can skate well as well as make decisions quicker. Phaneuf cannot do any of that. Either insulate him or let him go
 

Durrrrrr

Registered User
Jun 23, 2011
165
0
I think we have a lot of smart players and skilled players... what we don't have a lot of is players with both
 

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