Hockey fights - Tradition, Amusement, Deterrent, or Pure Evil? Discuss

Hivemind

We're Touched
Oct 8, 2010
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Don’t players have the choice of whether or not to fight, whether or not to wear a mask?

Let these men use their own judgement.

Maybe it's because I've spent so much of my life in machine shops and shipyards, but Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) isn't really optional in most other professions. It's a mandatory part of having those jobs or even visiting any industrial environment. Nor is it really in hockey, with helmets and padding required to play the game. There's always going to be inherent risk in playing a full contact sport like hockey, and nobody is trying to take that away. But when there's easy, ultra-low-cost ways to mitigate that risk through PPE it just seems absurd to me that the league hasn't followed through with those options. For all the mouth service the league gives about preventing head injuries, they have a simple option right in front of them that can increase the efficacy of helmets (and not just at preventing facial injuries, but also keeping the helmet securely in place as designed, which increases its effectiveness).
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
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900

Nodody watched that.
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
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Maybe it's because I've spent so much of my life in machine shops and shipyards, but Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) isn't really optional in most other professions. It's a mandatory part of having those jobs or even visiting any industrial environment. Nor is it really in hockey, with helmets and padding required to play the game. There's always going to be inherent risk in playing a full contact sport like hockey, and nobody is trying to take that away. But when there's easy, ultra-low-cost ways to mitigate that risk through PPE it just seems absurd to me that the league hasn't followed through with those options. For all the mouth service the league gives about preventing head injuries, they have a simple option right in front of them that can increase the efficacy of helmets (and not just at preventing facial injuries, but also keeping the helmet securely in place as designed, which increases its effectiveness).

You probably know that I have been a serious race car driver. I always used the most available safety gear. I drove with my helmet visor down while most others dont as an example. Ive had my own concussion as a competitor. Its dangerous. So, i get it. But what you are suggesting is never going to happen. The players have to want it too and they just wont.

 

txpd

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Jan 25, 2003
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Okay? That doesn't change the fact you can still see their faces. Are you implying the fact they wear full cages is why nobody watched it?

My point is that nobody watches any form of hockey where the players wear cages. Its just a fact
 

Hivemind

We're Touched
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My point is that nobody watches any form of hockey where the players wear cages. Its just a fact
I don't believe that's a causal relationship. Minor league and women's sports have low viewership ratings across all leagues and all sports, and isn't tied to protective gear.

And with regards to your other post, sometimes the players are dumb when it comes to safety. Plenty of them fought against wearing helmets in the first place, and plenty still refuse to wear them during warm-ups despite the risk (including the player this thread is about, Tom Wilson). I've already pointed out how many players refuse to wear their chin straps properly. Not to mention those who resisted visors (and those, like Hagelin, that wear their visors in a position where they do nothing). Yet helmets became a rule and so did visors, regardless of whether or not the players wanted them. Unless you think the NHLPA is going to go to war in CBA negotiations over full cages (and a good union wouldn't be opposing worker safety requirements, although the NHLPA is often not a good union), it could certainly happen with or without the players if the owners feel its in their interests.
 

g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
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I don't believe that's a causal relationship. Minor league and women's sports have low viewership ratings across all leagues and all sports, and isn't tied to protective gear.

And with regards to your other post, sometimes the players are dumb when it comes to safety. Plenty of them fought against wearing helmets in the first place, and plenty still refuse to wear them during warm-ups despite the risk (including the player this thread is about, Tom Wilson). I've already pointed out how many players refuse to wear their chin straps properly. Not to mention those who resisted visors (and those, like Hagelin, that wear their visors in a position where they do nothing). Yet helmets became a rule and so did visors, regardless of whether or not the players wanted them. Unless you think the NHLPA is going to go to war in CBA negotiations over full cages (and a good union wouldn't be opposing worker safety requirements, although the NHLPA is often not a good union), it could certainly happen with or without the players if the owners feel its in their interests.


I don't fully buy the marketability angle personally but IMO you have it backwards. It's not that people don't watch because of the gear...they have the gear because nobody watches. The "causal" relationship is the extra gear showing up because the lower leagues literally can't afford to take chances.

You can cite a few changes to the rules but how many overprotective proposals were NOT adopted? Maybe your idea is one of the bad ones that gets resisted for good reason.

The best shows are the ones with the least safety nets and the most danger. That's what people want in entertainment. That's how it is with pros. I have no idea why this upsets some people, since it doesn't affect them at all.
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
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No helmets -> helmets -> helmets with visors -> helmets with cages. A reasonable progression. Makes the game safer without making any inherent changes to how the game is played.

As long as there is any fighting in the NHL visors will be as far as that stuff goes. Besides there are other things that are more important than cages.
 

txpd

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Jan 25, 2003
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I don't fully buy the marketability angle personally but IMO you have it backwards. It's not that people don't watch because of the gear...they have the gear because nobody watches.

Yea. That was my point. People dont care about NCAA hockey. People dont watch kids hockey unless its their kids. People dont watch women's hockey gold medal games. That they wear cages isn't why nobody watches. That said, there is no body checking in the women's game. How far do you want to go?
 

g00n

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Nov 22, 2007
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I think this (now standalone) thread got derailed a bit when it became accepted that fighting would go down if players wore cages, or something similar to that. And then we started talking more about the cages.

Back to the original topic and that point about the gear reducing the reason guys fight: I disagree. Fights happen when players have a problem with the way the other guy is conducting himself on the ice and that's not limited to things like headshots or facewashing. A lot of scrums happen when guys go for knees, or hack at goaltenders, or run the goalie. No amount of padding or cages or Nerfing will stop those things from happening.

Which gets back to the point that the nature of the NHL game is a major factor in fighting, so other leagues are not comparable.

I think in one of the older discussions there was an attempt to blend hit and other injury stats together to make a case that headshots and thus punching were dangerous a la CTE concerns in the NFL. Boxing has been mentioned here as well. I've addressed some of that before, in this post and ones prior to it in the same linked thread:

League News: - 2018-19 NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) Vol. 4

Recency and familiarity biases convince people that whatever is right in front of them, or seen repeatedly, is more than coincidence and in fact is either reality in full or some kind of trend...even an epidemic. But what's not seen are the much more statistically significant "exceptions", such as all the hits, punches, and players who do not fit the concerned narrative in the media.
 

Ovechkins Wodka

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Dec 1, 2007
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Yea. That was my point. People dont care about NCAA hockey. People dont watch kids hockey unless its their kids. People dont watch women's hockey gold medal games. That they wear cages isn't why nobody watches. That said, there is no body checking in the women's game. How far do you want to go?
Lots of people watch those games. Especially the HF community
 

hb12xchamps

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Dec 23, 2011
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Fighting will always be a part of the sport. I think this is one of those issues where we don’t take the thoughts of current players into the actual discussion. Bears Blueline Podcast had Beck Malenstyn, Connor Hobbs and Colby Williams talking about fighting in the last episode I listened to. Some of their key talking points:
  • Do no want fighting removed and don’t believe it will ever be fully removed
  • Hate the 10 fight, automatic one game suspension rule for the AHL. Want to increase it so guys aren’t as timid to fight. Hobbs mentioned maybe make it 15 fights instead of 10.
  • All agreed that having a goon is not beneficial. All said having a tough player who can fight and play is what they want and what the teams/league wants.
  • One mentioned that they think with the crackdown of fighting, guys are taking more liberties on the ice without repercussions.
I personally think they have fair points and it’s always interesting to hear current players discuss the subject.

The outcome of the Ovechkin fight doesn’t happen every single night. Hell, you might only get a few KOs an entire season. If they really want to make the game safer they need to be consistent on suspending guys for bad hits. I’d bet that more guys receive concussions and injuries from bad hits than they do from fighting.
 
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g00n

Retired Global Mod
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Fighting will always be a part of the sport. I think this is one of those issues where we don’t take the thoughts of current players into the actual discussion. Bears Blueline Podcast had Beck Malenstyn, Connor Hobbs and Colby Williams talking about fighting in the last episode I listened to. Some of their key talking points:
  • Do no want fighting removed and don’t believe it will ever be fully removed
  • Hate the 10 fight, automatic one game suspension rule for the AHL. Want to increase it so guys aren’t as timid to fight. Hobbs mentioned maybe make it 15 fights instead of 10.
  • All agreed that having a goon is not beneficial. All said having a tough player who can fight and play is what they want and what the teams/league wants.
  • One mentioned that they think with the crackdown of fighting, guys are taking more liberties on the ice without repercussions.
I personally think they have fair points and it’s always interesting to hear current players discuss the subject.

The outcome of the Ovechkin fight doesn’t happen every single night. Hell, you might only get a few KOs an entire season. If they really want to make the game safer they need to be consistent on suspending guys for bad hits. I’d bet that more guys receive concussions and injuries from bad hits than they do from fighting.


Good post. These are important points.

We can dismiss the word of those who actually do the fighting as resistance to change but I think that's just rationalization. Guys refusing to wear helmets or visors for years either did not feel comfortable in the gear or they just didn't see the point since the need was based on chances of accident. They viewed pucks to the head/face as an occupational hazard and many probably felt their careers would be MORE threatened if they were to wear uncomfortable, unfamiliar gear that negatively affected their "muscle memory" and confidence on the ice.

Still, fighting as an issue is not the same as helmets and visors. Guys who fight almost always do so voluntarily, knowing full well what a fight is all about. When firefighters rush into a burning building they know there's a chance the roof can cave in and crush them, but they're not going to wear body armor or exoskeletons to prevent damage. They balance protection with agility, as do soldiers in the military. Ask some of them about overpreparing and loading out with too much gear, and how much worse that makes their chances of survival.

The point being you can't prepare for everything or prevent all negative consequences. You strike a balance. Grown professionals performing for the public "without a net" are going to be given plenty of leeway in that regard while most of the public, amateurs, and children will need greater safeguards.
 
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RandyHolt

Keep truckin'
Nov 3, 2006
34,639
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I think the plain white Jason mask is kind of charming. Maybe every player should wear one, and guess what.

Paint their own face on the mask, to keep everyone happy. Pure genius marketing. The name, of my next startup.

817f8965-8fe0-46e1-844a-322e461018da_1.ebe290c7ecd832e1e694cd932aecdf0b.jpeg




And we can retro fit an old Tiger Williams special one for Marchand, to help keep his tongue in check

TgGTq.jpg
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
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New Bern, NC
Lots of people watch those games. Especially the HF community

Lots of people? Your definition of "Lots"? If the NHL has a reasonably small audience compared to other sports, then the Bean Pot gets a micro audience.

I think I have established myself as a pretty serious hockey fan. I have not seen ONE NCAA game this season. Not one.
 

Chokingdogs

Registered User
Apr 18, 2006
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I wonder if rod the bod would be as vocal about fighting not being needed if the kid had KO’d Ovechkin.

Something tells me no.......hmmm. The points would be reversed.

To touch on the “marketing” end of this discussion wrt cages etc. although this example is kinda reversed. Going on memory from 25+ years ago so I could be off. TX should be familiar

The IMSA GTP racing series, the bad ass prototype cars Porsche 956/962, jags, etc. the kinds that raced 24 hours of Le Mans ( known in Europe as world sports cars iirc ), most famous probably al holbert in lowenbrau special Porsche. In the 80s races were always on tv, espn mostly, reasonably popular among the racing fan community.

Early 90s it waned and they changed the format. Gone were the enclosed cockpit land space ship looking cars. They brought back what looked like the early can-am cars, open cockpit jobs. One of the talking points was marketing, how the open cockpit ( showing the driver ) would be more popular with fans.

It wasn’t.
 

HeyMattyB

Sports bring out the worst in everyone.
Aug 20, 2010
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Philadelphia, PA
I think I have established myself as a pretty serious hockey fan. I have not seen ONE NCAA game this season. Not one.

Controversial Opinion? If you only watch NHL hockey, you're not a hockey fan. You're an NHL fan.

Doubly so if, in addition to never watching minor/international/college/junior/women's hockey, you actively disparage those leagues.
 
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g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
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Controversial Opinion? If you only watch NHL hockey, you're not a hockey fan. You're an NHL fan.

Doubly so if, in addition to never watching minor/international/college/junior/women's hockey, you actively disparage those leagues.

That's not realistic. Not everyone has enough free time to take in everything related to their interests. You would never say an NFL fan isn't a football fan if he doesn't watch arena football or college.

By your definition there are probably only a few thousand real hockey fans in this country, and as tex said they're probably connected to those lower leagues in some way.

Frozen Four ratings should be the highest of any college broadcasts, and draw 400K viewers or so

2017 Frozen Four TV Ratings: Denver-UMD down from 2016 title; remain the top program on ESPN Saturday

How many of those are kids at lower levels, people associated with the program, parents, and some alumni? Consider how many kids are playing hockey now:

american-youth-hockey-103118_sm_FINAL.png


Hockey in the United States: A Growing Game

So you have, probably not coincidentally, close to 400K youth players. Very good chance that most of those watching the biggest event in college hockey were mostly kids and people involved in those programs.

So those people are the only real hockey fans in America, I guess.
 

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