Hockey fights - Tradition, Amusement, Deterrent, or Pure Evil? Discuss

[ALLCAPSALLTHETIME]

I guess you dont like boxing or UFC. There is always figure skating.

I don't enjoy bloodsports , myself.

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[BobRouse]

I guess you dont like boxing or UFC. There is always figure skating.

No definitely not anymore. Those guys always go crazy or become mush mouths. It’s scary to see what happens to a lot of ex enforcers in the NHL from the Bob Probert story to others. Even the Chris Nolan documentary was pretty eye opening and he actually rebounded and is doing good on the radio but that’s rare.

 

[RandyHolt]

I got burned out on boxing. Especially the lower weight classes, where they would punch each other 1000 times with no knockdowns nor knockouts. At that point, who wins is whoever paid the judges more, or they flip a coin. Showing the winners cut up and fully battered face in the post game interview... yeah - a real winner there.

I used to watch all the big fights Tyson and Sugar Ray, original UFC (good lord) but they lost me.

 

[txpd]

No definitely not anymore. Those guys always go crazy or become mush mouths. It’s scary to see what happens to a lot of ex enforcers in the NHL from the Bob Probert story to others. Even the Chris Nolan documentary was pretty eye opening and he actually rebounded and is doing good on the radio but that’s rare.

Fighting that needs to happen will always happen. Willy will take a 2 game suspension to beat up Cole for the cheap shot on Kuzy and I would be fine with that. But if the NHL wants to cut down on head injuries 5 minutes is not enough penalty for fighting.

 

[twabby]

Fighting that needs to happen will always happen. Willy will take a 2 game suspension to beat up Cole for the cheap shot on Kuzy and I would be fine with that. But if the NHL wants to cut down on head injuries 5 minutes is not enough penalty for fighting.

Agreed. 5 game suspension for fighting would be ideal. Double it for each successive fight.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

They don’t want to eliminate fighting.

 

[txpd]

Agreed. 5 game suspension for fighting would be ideal. Double it for each successive fight.

That is probably too much. It would have to be situation to situation. Bergeron jumping Eller is one thing. Wilson and Cole a different thing. Eller got a 5 so you would ding him for 5 games? 5 games for standing up for a teammate is too much. Baseball doesn't suspend position players for 5 games for fighting.

 

[twabby]

That is probably too much. It would have to be situation to situation. Bergeron jumping Eller is one thing. Wilson and Cole a different thing. Eller got a 5 so you would ding him for 5 games? 5 games for standing up for a teammate is too much. Baseball doesn't suspend position players for 5 games for fighting.

You could make it a 5 game minimum and have it be longer for exceptional circumstances like if a dude jumps another guy from behind. There's no need to stand up for a teammate because Marchand, as crazy as he is, isn't going to fight Eller when he's staring down 5, 10, 20, etc. game suspensions.

Obviously I wouldn't be in favor of suspending players who fought back purely as a matter of self-defense, but if you initiate a fight or mutually agree to a fight I think 5 games is a fair start if the league wants fighting out of the league.

But as @CapitalsCupReality mentioned they don't actually want it out of the league because they know many fans like fighting. I'm tired of it, and I'm fully aware I'm in the minority here and probably among NHL fans as a whole. There was absolutely nothing satisfying about Ovechkin's fight last night, both in the moment and after the game. A stupid kid made a bad decision in part due to the culture of the NHL and had to be taken to a hospital as a result and is likely going to miss at least another game. And it could have been much worse.

I don't think a few moments of entertaining bloodthirsty fans is worth the health of people when it has no appreciable impact on the game in any meaningful sense. It doesn't change momentum or otherwise impact the scoreboard, and it doesn't act as a deterrent. It's fighting for the sake of fighting.

 

[Calicaps]

I don't think a few moments of entertaining bloodthirsty fans is worth the health of people when it has no appreciable impact on the game in any meaningful sense. It doesn't change momentum or otherwise impact the scoreboard, and it doesn't act as a deterrent. It's fighting for the sake of fighting.

This is not why there's fighting in hockey. There's fighting in hockey because it's a violent sport where people take liberties and guys need to be protected. You like to make the comment about how the NFL doesn't have fighting even though it's violent. And you're right, it doesn't. But the key difference is that those guys play ~11 minutes of actual action per game and the rest of the time they're standing around talking to their teammates. NHL players are beating on each other for 60 solid minutes. It's not analogous.

And based on last night, I'd say it definitely can change momentum and impact the scoreboard.

 

[twabby]

This is not why there's fighting in hockey. There's fighting in hockey because it's a violent sport where people take liberties and guys need to be protected. You like to make the comment about how the NFL doesn't have fighting even though it's violent. And you're right, it doesn't. But the key difference is that those guys play ~11 minutes of actual action per game and the rest of the time they're standing around talking to their teammates. NHL players are beating on each other for 60 solid minutes. It's not analogous.

And based on last night, I'd say it definitely can change momentum and impact the scoreboard.

Who was protecting who in the fight last night? It’s a garbage rationalization with no basis in reality, as is the claim that the NHL is somehow unique in requiring fighting despite the fact that it’s banned in many hockey leagues around the world including the highest levels of international play and they do just fine without it. And hockey players are on the bench for 2/3 of the game at least. Somehow offensive and defensive linemen in the NFL, who are constantly battling each other physically for those 10 minutes or so you mention, don’t feel the need to fight. The NHL could be this way too but they choose not to.

And as mentioned earlier it’s debatable at best that the fight last night altered the course of the game. Djoos’s turnover and the goal against could be argued to have done much more to turn the course of the game after a decent start from the Caps. The Capitals have been rather poor at 5v5 outside of a few moments this series, it’s lazy to attribute a poor overall effort to being shellshocked by a fight when anyone who’s paid attention to the series could see this coming based on the actual hockey being played.

 

[Chokingdogs]

LOL at 5 games for fighting.

Seriously, that’s absurd. There’s enough ( potential ) ancillary penalties surrounding fighting as it is.

 

[Hivemind]

This is not why there's fighting in hockey. There's fighting in hockey because it's a violent sport where people take liberties and guys need to be protected. You like to make the comment about how the NFL doesn't have fighting even though it's violent. And you're right, it doesn't. But the key difference is that those guys play ~11 minutes of actual action per game and the rest of the time they're standing around talking to their teammates. NHL players are beating on each other for 60 solid minutes. It's not analogous.

This argument falls apart when you consider that there's professional hockey played in leagues that don't allow fighting, not to mention both international and college hockey.

There's also a lot of empirical evidence that shows that fighting is not a deterrent for cheap shots or injuries, but I've had that conversation on this forum multiple times in the past and don't really feel like getting in another bajillion-post back-and-forth with a couple posters who feel differently on the subject than I do.

To be clear, I don't particularly want fighting removed from the game. But I feel most of the arguments people use to defend it are junk. People should admit the truth. They want fighting in the game because they enjoy fights, not because of some narrative they've constructed to justify their enjoyment of fights.

 

[kicksavedave]

This argument falls apart when you consider that there's professional hockey played in leagues that don't allow fighting, not to mention both international and college hockey.

There's also a lot of empirical evidence that shows that fighting is not a deterrent for cheap shots or injuries, but I've had that conversation on this forum multiple times in the past and don't really feel like getting in another bajillion-post back-and-forth with a couple posters who feel differently on the subject than I do.

To be clear, I don't particularly want fighting removed from the game. But I feel most of the arguments people use to defend it are junk. People should admit the truth. They want fighting in the game because they enjoy fights, not because of some narrative they've constructed to justify their enjoyment of fights.

This^. The NHL could eliminate fighting easily if they wanted to, but overall fans like it enough so the NHL keeps it around. Its usefulness in the league is purely for its entertainment value, its not any sort of deterrent. It didn't deter Cole, and it didn't deter Hamilton from doing pretty much the same thing, knowing he could have gotten what Cole got also.

Once majority fan sentiment changes the NHL will ban it in a split second.

 

[g00n]

This argument falls apart when you consider that there's professional hockey played in leagues that don't allow fighting, not to mention both international and college hockey.

There's also a lot of empirical evidence that shows that fighting is not a deterrent for cheap shots or injuries, but I've had that conversation on this forum multiple times in the past and don't really feel like getting in another bajillion-post back-and-forth with a couple posters who feel differently on the subject than I do.

To be clear, I don't particularly want fighting removed from the game. But I feel most of the arguments people use to defend it are junk. People should admit the truth. They want fighting in the game because they enjoy fights, not because of some narrative they've constructed to justify their enjoyment of fights.

It's both. It's entertaining and necessary.

The lack of fighting in other leagues doesn't mean anything in the NHL context. Different rules, styles, players, etc. LOL at "empirical evidence". Is there a parallel universe NHL with no fighting?

 

[IafrateOvie34]

I have to believe Fleury is on his naughty list.

 

[Hivemind]

The lack of fighting in other leagues doesn't mean anything in the NHL context. Different rules, styles, players, etc. LOL at "empirical evidence". Is there a parallel universe NHL with no fighting?

See our prior conversations on this topic, regarding the necessity of enforcers and the evidence that was presented in those conversations. The evidence exists and is compelling for those who don't already have their minds entrenched in their beliefs.

 

[g00n]

See our prior conversations on this topic, regarding the necessity of enforcers and the evidence that was presented in those conversations. The evidence exists and is compelling for those who don't already have their minds entrenched in their beliefs.

Uh huh. Entrenched minds!

Not worried about it, bud.

 

[Calicaps]

Who was protecting who in the fight last night? It’s a garbage rationalization with no basis in reality, as is the claim that the NHL is somehow unique in requiring fighting despite the fact that it’s banned in many hockey leagues around the world including the highest levels of international play and they do just fine without it. And hockey players are on the bench for 2/3 of the game at least. Somehow offensive and defensive linemen in the NFL, who are constantly battling each other physically for those 10 minutes or so you mention, don’t feel the need to fight. The NHL could be this way too but they choose not to.

And as mentioned earlier it’s debatable at best that the fight last night altered the course of the game. Djoos’s turnover and the goal against could be argued to have done much more to turn the course of the game after a decent start from the Caps. The Capitals have been rather poor at 5v5 outside of a few moments this series, it’s lazy to attribute a poor overall effort to being shellshocked by a fight when anyone who’s paid attention to the series could see this coming based on the actual hockey being played.

Pffft. International hockey is played on the Great Lakes. Guys barely touch each other by comparison. And the answer is they were trying to stand up for/protect themselves, especially Ovie, ultimately. Svech was hacking at him. Ovie hacked back and told him to knock it off. So it came down to mano-a-mano for the right to not get an arm chopped off.

Obviously just my opinion but I think the fight was a key moment that shifted the game because I think it knocked Ovie off his horse. Yeah they've been weak 5 on 5 but not the top line and they also fell apart after that, diminishing what offensive push the Caps have had. But that is my opinion, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Hivemind]

Pffft. International hockey is played on the Great Lakes. Guys barely touch each other by comparison.

It's not just international hockey. Fighting in the NCAA carries an automatic game misconduct penalty (which carries a ban in the following game per NCAA rules). Fighting in the USHL carries an automatic 10-minute misconduct.

Even the CHL has cracked down on fighting, with automatic suspensions for players with three or more fights.

 

[g00n]

It's not just international hockey. Fighting in the NCAA carries an automatic game misconduct penalty (which carries a ban in the following game per NCAA rules). Fighting in the USHL carries an automatic 10-minute misconduct.

Even the CHL has cracked down on fighting, with automatic suspensions for players with three or more fights.

So what? Those aren't the NHL. They don't have the same players, rules, unions, CBA, history, culture, cash flow, etc etc etc.

Apples to oranges.

 

[Hivemind]

So what? Those aren't the NHL. They don't have the same players, rules, unions, CBA, history, culture, cash flow, etc etc etc.

Apples to oranges.

The "so what" is pretty obvious, if you bother reading the exchange of posts (she was commenting on rink size, so I brought up parallels played on North American rinks).

But ultimately you and I have already had this conversation more than once. This isn't something that either of us are going to come to agreement on, and I'm not interested in wasting more time debating this subject with you. I will continue to discuss with others who may provide alternative perspectives, but I'm going to "agree to disagree" with you. Let's not waste our time.

 

[g00n]

The "so what" is pretty obvious, if you bother reading the exchange of posts (she was commenting on rink size, so I brought up parallels played on North American rinks).

But ultimately you and I have already had this conversation more than once. This isn't something that either of us are going to come to agreement on, and I'm not interested in wasting more time debating this subject with you. I will continue to discuss with others who may provide alternative perspectives, but I'm going to "agree to disagree" with you. Let's not waste our time.

I don't agree to disagree. I agree you haven't provided the "evidence" you think you have. And I think you're not looking for "alternative perspectives" so much as an audience who will just accept your perspectives.

 

[Hivemind]

I don't agree to disagree. I agree you haven't provided the "evidence" you think you have. And I think you're not looking for "alternative perspectives" so much as an audience who will just accept your perspectives.

Feel free to re-litigate our previous conversations then. I'm done replying to you. It's a waste of time and energy for all involved, and I don't think anyone in this thread (especially the mods) would enjoy us going back and forth for three pages.

Here's a link to a prior discussions:
Post-Game Talk: - That hit by Wilson on Zadorov was clean: Isles at Caps 7:07PM
Post-Game Talk: - Caps @ Devils 1pm

 

[IafrateOvie34]

Majority of the US don't even follow international or college hockey sadly. There is senseless fighting and necessary fighting, imho. What irritates me more is how folks today are calling clean hits cheap shots. A cheap shot to me is what Fleury did to Oshie or Samuelsson's knee on Neely. In those cases the teams should enforce it because the safety department sure don't do enough. A 6 to 7 game suspension? Big whoop. If the NHL is serious about that stuff in the NHL they will suspend the player the rest of the playoffs and no ring if their team wins the SC. I'm in no way for that though, but the small game suspensions just don't cut it. While we're at it, last night's fight was senseless in my book, but still a shock moment.

 

[Bieronymus Trotz]

To be clear, I don't particularly want fighting removed from the game. But I feel most of the arguments people use to defend it are junk. People should admit the truth. They want fighting in the game because they enjoy fights, not because of some narrative they've constructed to justify their enjoyment of fights.

Yup. I've always been adamantly pro-fighting, and I think the "arguments" for it are just embarrassing. I want it to be in the game because I like it. That's it. (I've come around to the idea that maybe it wouldn't be the most terrible thing if it mostly faded away, though.)