Hlinka Gretzky Cup 2019

[jj cale]

Nobody believes that jibberish. or should I refer you to the Russian national media headlines after the Vancouver debacle. Send the Canadians to Doping Control. and the commentary from there highlighted Bryzgolov's infamous quote. "Canadians were like gorillas released from their cages". Was that an example of a backhanded compliment or was it a compliment masquerading as an insult? It wasn't Canadians played well and deserved the win. It was doping, NHL officiating and a whole litany of other excuses for Vancouver....and yes somewhere way down the long list of excuses, yes, Sbornaja played like crap.

So, don't give us any of that sanctimonious nonsense about the honor and professionalism of the Russian media. because they are none of those things.

All they want, And I learned this a long time ago......................is a free pass to cheapen,demean insult and harass Canada's hockey program(and it often devolves into anything North American while they are at it) at each and every turn and in turn they want to be able to say we are bad guys if we tell them to go to hell when they engage in that silliness.

They want a free pass to do as they please and not ever get any criticism their way, great deal if we let them do it. Some of us won't let them.

I mean, the guy who won't be named roaring in here talking about arrogance and bitterness, if it had been a poster with a good history of not constantly doing the same thing himself I would not even have said a word, but him of all people? That's rich.

If they can give it, and we all know they give it every chance they get, then they should be able to take it.

 

[joe dirte]

At the end of the day a team never should apologize for good goaltending. He’s part of the team and the Russian team rallied around him.

I’m not even upset about the loss. We got to witness an all time great performance from Askarov.

I think some of you Russian posters are dismissing our reverence of Askarov as being disrespectful to the Russian team.

It’s the opposite, we know greatness in hockey when we see it. Askarov clearly has greatness in him.

Askarov is the Connor McDavid or Rasmus Dahlin of goalie prospects.

True. Canada was a far better team aside from the goalie.

Nothing wrong with that. Russia has been producing some elite goalies in recent years which is a good thing for them. Theyve historically had trouble getting good goaltenders.

 

[joe dirte]

True, this is a way bigger event in Canada than in Finland.

Its not a big deal in canada either. Yiu may get that impression from this site, but this site is filled with hardcore fans.

I wouldnt really care, but i know someone on the team so ive been following this year.

 

[FinPanda]

Cmon dude! When you win you do exactly the same thing yourself, Finns are good at sprinkling salt in the wounds too!
Take, for example, the last quarterfinal of the World Championship, where you mocked us as hell after the victory!

Both are equally crap, neither is better than the other when it comes to the crayon!

Sure, I can't deny it.

 

[Yakushev72]

I had the opportunity to watch the Gold Medal Game yesterday on YouTube. I was criticized for commenting on the game without having actually watched it (what dark corner of the Earth could you find that televises the Hlinka Gretzky other than Canada, who locks everyone else out). Specifically, I was criticized for questioning the premise that the Russian win was undeserving, based on the "total and complete domination" by Canada which was offset only by one of the 2 or 3 greatest goaltending performances in hockey history, professional or amateur, by Askarov.

Sorry, but after watching the game, I found no evidence of Canadian dominance. Canada fell behind right from the start, and of course they scratched to try to get back in the game. They fired quite a few shots at Askarov when they were on the power play, and they had a few trips into the Russian zone where they cycled effectively along the boards, and even a few scrums in front of the net. Part of that was a result of Golubovich's strategy of collapsing into the defensive zone and massing bodies in front of Askarov, a strategy that worked to perfection, limiting Canada to 1 goal until 5 minutes left in the game.

Based on the Canadian posts, I was looking forward to seeing a cavalcade of superhuman saves from Askarov - saves with his tongue, eyes, ears. Disappointingly, I didn't see anything that fit into the world of the paranormal. He is an exceptional young goalie with a bright future in the sport, but I didn't see him forced to be spectactular! For me, his most memorable play was with 5 minutes left in the 3rd, when he let in a soft goal, a flub, against Foudy. At a time when Russia was in control, yes, even dominating, Askarov needlessly let the Canadians back in the game, and they played with a passion and zeal that forced Russia to defend until the end!

After watching the game, at least some of the raving about Askarov could be attributed to the banter of the Canadian TV announcers, particularly Button, who kept incessantly praising Askarov. While I was unable to watch the game live, many of my impressions were taken from the moods of Canadian posters as they were posting. Several Canadian posters, especially an unnamed gentleman from Nova Scotia who mocked me for not having watched the game, simultaneously offered words to the effect of "that's it, game over!," citing Askarov's great effort but also Canada's lack of passion and intensity. Presumably, this was with 12 minutes left in the game when Pashin made it 3-1 for Russia. That kind of despair and abandonment after falling behind by 2 goals with far more than half a period left is totally inconsistent with the prospects of a team that is dominating the game and pushing the opponent to the wall. It just didn't smell right, and watching the game confirmed my instincts.

 

[jj cale]

I had the opportunity to watch the Gold Medal Game yesterday on YouTube. I was criticized for commenting on the game without having actually watched it (what dark corner of the Earth could you find that televises the Hlinka Gretzky other than Canada, who locks everyone else out). Specifically, I was criticized for questioning the premise that the Russian win was undeserving, based on the "total and complete domination" by Canada which was offset only by one of the 2 or 3 greatest goaltending performances in hockey history, professional or amateur, by Askarov.

Sorry, but after watching the game, I found no evidence of Canadian dominance. Canada fell behind right from the start, and of course they scratched to try to get back in the game. They fired quite a few shots at Askarov when they were on the power play, and they had a few trips into the Russian zone where they cycled effectively along the boards, and even a few scrums in front of the net. Part of that was a result of Golubovich's strategy of collapsing into the defensive zone and massing bodies in front of Askarov, a strategy that worked to perfection, limiting Canada to 1 goal until 5 minutes left in the game.

Based on the Canadian posts, I was looking forward to seeing a cavalcade of superhuman saves from Askarov - saves with his tongue, eyes, ears. Disappointingly, I didn't see anything that fit into the world of the paranormal. He is an exceptional young goalie with a bright future in the sport, but I didn't see him forced to be spectactular! For me, his most memorable play was with 5 minutes left in the 3rd, when he let in a soft goal, a flub, against Foudy. At a time when Russia was in control, yes, even dominating, Askarov needlessly let the Canadians back in the game, and they played with a passion and zeal that forced Russia to defend until the end!

After watching the game, at least some of the raving about Askarov could be attributed to the banter of the Canadian TV announcers, particularly Button, who kept incessantly praising Askarov. While I was unable to watch the game live, many of my impressions were taken from the moods of Canadian posters as they were posting. Several Canadian posters, especially an unnamed gentleman from Nova Scotia who mocked me for not having watched the game, simultaneously offered words to the effect of "that's it, game over!," citing Askarov's great effort but also Canada's lack of passion and intensity. Presumably, this was with 12 minutes left in the game when Pashin made it 3-1 for Russia. That kind of despair and abandonment after falling behind by 2 goals with far more than half a period left is totally inconsistent with the prospects of a team that is dominating the game and pushing the opponent to the wall. It just didn't smell right, and watching the game confirmed my instincts.

Are you referring to me?No where did I mock you for not having watched the game,

I indeed did say the game was over after Russia went up 3-1 which it proved to be. And if you took the time to read this thread when the game was over I was the Canadian poster here who quickly said this Russian victory was sure as hell not all on the back of askarov. You are welcome to go back and read this thread if I am the person you are quoting.

 

[OldScool]

I had the opportunity to watch the Gold Medal Game yesterday on YouTube. I was criticized for commenting on the game without having actually watched it (what dark corner of the Earth could you find that televises the Hlinka Gretzky other than Canada, who locks everyone else out). Specifically, I was criticized for questioning the premise that the Russian win was undeserving, based on the "total and complete domination" by Canada which was offset only by one of the 2 or 3 greatest goaltending performances in hockey history, professional or amateur, by Askarov.

Sorry, but after watching the game, I found no evidence of Canadian dominance. Canada fell behind right from the start, and of course they scratched to try to get back in the game. They fired quite a few shots at Askarov when they were on the power play, and they had a few trips into the Russian zone where they cycled effectively along the boards, and even a few scrums in front of the net. Part of that was a result of Golubovich's strategy of collapsing into the defensive zone and massing bodies in front of Askarov, a strategy that worked to perfection, limiting Canada to 1 goal until 5 minutes left in the game.

Based on the Canadian posts, I was looking forward to seeing a cavalcade of superhuman saves from Askarov - saves with his tongue, eyes, ears. Disappointingly, I didn't see anything that fit into the world of the paranormal. He is an exceptional young goalie with a bright future in the sport, but I didn't see him forced to be spectactular! For me, his most memorable play was with 5 minutes left in the 3rd, when he let in a soft goal, a flub, against Foudy. At a time when Russia was in control, yes, even dominating, Askarov needlessly let the Canadians back in the game, and they played with a passion and zeal that forced Russia to defend until the end!

After watching the game, at least some of the raving about Askarov could be attributed to the banter of the Canadian TV announcers, particularly Button, who kept incessantly praising Askarov. While I was unable to watch the game live, many of my impressions were taken from the moods of Canadian posters as they were posting. Several Canadian posters, especially an unnamed gentleman from Nova Scotia who mocked me for not having watched the game, simultaneously offered words to the effect of "that's it, game over!," citing Askarov's great effort but also Canada's lack of passion and intensity. Presumably, this was with 12 minutes left in the game when Pashin made it 3-1 for Russia. That kind of despair and abandonment after falling behind by 2 goals with far more than half a period left is totally inconsistent with the prospects of a team that is dominating the game and pushing the opponent to the wall. It just didn't smell right, and watching the game confirmed my instincts.

You are 100% accurate in your assessment. Russia has been ultra successful recently playing very sound defense and getting good goaltending. Defense allows the goalies to see the shot and does a great job of limiting high quality chances. Look at the stats of essentially all the Russian goalies of late and they are very solid. Canada/USA play run and gun style similar to NHL regular season hockey. Odd man breaks since defense is jumping in the play. Russia plays NHL playoff hockey style and are much more conservative. They are happy to win 2-1. Askarov is a great prospect but the hype is over the top IMO. Russia hockey deserves the credit too. In the U18 worlds vs USA the USA hit 6 posts and in the shootout lost the puck and didnt get a shot off in 3 of the 4 attempts. Game could have easily been a 6-2 win for USA if not for a few inches. Gotta have luck too.

 

[Yakushev72]

You are 100% accurate in your assessment. Russia has been ultra successful recently playing very sound defense and getting good goaltending. Defense allows the goalies to see the shot and does a great job of limiting high quality chances. Look at the stats of essentially all the Russian goalies of late and they are very solid. Canada/USA play run and gun style similar to NHL regular season hockey. Odd man breaks since defense is jumping in the play. Russia plays NHL playoff hockey style and are much more conservative. They are happy to win 2-1. Askarov is a great prospect but the hype is over the top IMO. Russia hockey deserves the credit too. In the U18 worlds vs USA the USA hit 6 posts and in the shootout lost the puck and didnt get a shot off in 3 of the 4 attempts. Game could have easily been a 6-2 win for USA if not for a few inches. Gotta have luck too.

Russia's win over the USA in the World U18 was a far greater accomplishment than winning Gold in the HlinkaGretzky. The US National Team Development Program at age 16-18 is far ahead of the rest of the world, and to beat them was a great accomplishment for Russia. Russia is only beginning to become a factor at age 16-18, because there has previously been very little organized hockey available for kids at that age to play, but the level of depth and quality of coaching has already significantly increased at those age groups.

 

[joe dirte]

Russia's win over the USA in the World U18 was a far greater accomplishment than winning Gold in the HlinkaGretzky. The US National Team Development Program at age 16-18 is far ahead of the rest of the world, and to beat them was a great accomplishment for Russia. Russia is only beginning to become a factor at age 16-18, because there has previously been very little organized hockey available for kids at that age to play, but the level of depth and quality of coaching has already significantly increased at those age groups.

As an independent team sure. The development of actual players at that age doesnt really compare to Canada though. Canada could ice 5 or 6 teams that would be competitive with other national teams.

Gaps may be tightening, but there is still a long long LONG way to go.

 

[Yakushev72]

As an independent team sure. The development of actual players at that age doesnt really compare to Canada though. Canada could ice 5 or 6 teams that would be competitive with other national teams.

Gaps may be tightening, but there is still a long long LONG way to go.

True. Measuring hockey resources as expressed on the IIHF website, both the United States and Canada spend about 8-10 times more money and other resources on hockey development than does Russia. Russian hockey resources are increasing only incrementally. And yet, if you look at the WJC over the last 10 years and count total medals earned, assigning 3 points for Gold, 2 for Silver and 1 for Bronze, Russia scores a higher ranking than both the USA and Canada. Russia doesn't put much into it, but they are actually getting a fair amount out.

 

[joe dirte]

True. Measuring hockey resources as expressed on the IIHF website, both the United States and Canada spend about 8-10 times more money and other resources on hockey development than does Russia. Russian hockey resources are increasing only incrementally. And yet, if you look at the WJC over the last 10 years and count total medals earned, assigning 3 points for Gold, 2 for Silver and 1 for Bronze, Russia scores a higher ranking than both the USA and Canada. Russia doesn't put much into it, but they are actually getting a fair amount out.

Im sure they are. Obviously your method is a bit flawed if youre trying to state russia actually fares better than either country at developing kids, but it certainly is a good barometer to say theyre improving.

 

[Nino33]

True. Measuring hockey resources as expressed on the IIHF website, both the United States and Canada spend about 8-10 times more money and other resources on hockey development than does Russia. Russian hockey resources are increasing only incrementally. And yet, if you look at the WJC over the last 10 years and count total medals earned, assigning 3 points for Gold, 2 for Silver and 1 for Bronze, Russia scores a higher ranking than both the USA and Canada. Russia doesn't put much into it, but they are actually getting a fair amount out.

Looking at the results over the last 10 years List of IIHF World Under-20 Championship medalists - Wikipedia Russia's not ahead of Canada and the US; actually all three teams end up with 13 points (with Russia winning it all the least amount among the three)

Gold - USA 3, Canada 2, Russia 1
Silver - Canada 3, Russia 3, USA 1
Bronze - Russia 4, USA 2, Canada 1

In the 10 years prior to the last 10 years, Russia won 2 Gold, 4 Silver and 2 Bronze...good for 16 points - the last 10 years is actually less successful than the previous 10

 

[jj cale]

Looking at the results over the last 10 years List of IIHF World Under-20 Championship medalists - Wikipedia Russia's not ahead of Canada and the US; actually all three teams end up with 13 points (with Russia winning it all the least amount among the three)

Gold - USA 3, Canada 2, Russia 1
Silver - Canada 3, Russia 3, USA 1
Bronze - Russia 4, USA 2, Canada 1

In the 10 years prior to the last 10 years, Russia won 2 Gold, 4 Silver and 2 Bronze...good for 16 points - the last 10 years is actually less successful than the previous 10

But, the U.S and Canada put 8-10 times more money and resources into hockey then Russia.

That explains everything.

 

[Nino33]

But, the U.S and Canada put 8-10 times more money and resources into hockey then Russia.

That explains everything.

It's not working then, because going back another 10 years (1990-1999) the Soviet Union/CIS/Russia won 2 Gold, 4 Silver and 3 Bronze...that's 17 points

For Russia in the WJC the last decade has been the least successful of the last three decades...I'm not sure why Yak didn't know that


P.S. Makes me wonder about the claim of Canada/the US spending 8-10 times what Russia does (maybe it is, but I wish a link had been given, especially when the WJC claims are so wrong)

 

[jj cale]

It's not working then, because going back another 10 years (1990-1999) the Soviet Union/CIS/Russia won 2 Gold, 4 Silver and 3 Bronze...that's 17 points

For Russia in the WJC the last decade has been the least successful of the last three decades...I'm not sure why Yak didn't know that


P.S. Makes me wonder about the claim of Canada/the US spending 8-10 times what Russia does (maybe it is, but I wish a link had been given, especially when the WJC claims are so wrong)

Well, the source has to be considered for sure.

 

[Kshahdoo]

It's not working then, because going back another 10 years (1990-1999) the Soviet Union/CIS/Russia won 2 Gold, 4 Silver and 3 Bronze...that's 17 points

For Russia in the WJC the last decade has been the least successful of the last three decades...I'm not sure why Yak didn't know that


P.S. Makes me wonder about the claim of Canada/the US spending 8-10 times what Russia does (maybe it is, but I wish a link had been given, especially when the WJC claims are so wrong)

Don't forget about that mess, that happened with Russia in 90s. Not a lot of babies were born in those years, and people thought more about surviving, than hockey, and we still managed to do ok with 90s born players.

Now we entering in a much better age, hockey wise. I expect, Russian teams will be doing even better in the coming years.

 

[Nino33]

Don't forget about that mess, that happened with Russia in 90s. Not a lot of babies were born in those years, and people thought more about surviving, than hockey, and we still managed to do ok with 90s born players.

This has nothing to do with the fact that what Yak said wasn't true (Russia hasn't been better than the US/Canada in the WJC over the last decade), and that's what was bring pointed out

Because the implication was the WJC results indicated Russia was getting better, and I had the WJC winners list right in front of me, I also compared the decades before the most recent to see if there was evidence that Russia was getting better (using the criteria/points system Yak brought up) - the evidence didn't support this view either

Now we entering in a much better age, hockey wise. I expect, Russian teams will be doing even better in the coming years.

I wouldn't expect you to say anything else

 

[Yakushev72]

It's not working then, because going back another 10 years (1990-1999) the Soviet Union/CIS/Russia won 2 Gold, 4 Silver and 3 Bronze...that's 17 points

For Russia in the WJC the last decade has been the least successful of the last three decades...I'm not sure why Yak didn't know that


P.S. Makes me wonder about the claim of Canada/the US spending 8-10 times what Russia does (maybe it is, but I wish a link had been given, especially when the WJC claims are so wrong)

In my post, I clearly state that I base my claims about resources on the data that is published on the IIHF website. Please don't shoot the messenger. Its all there. You guys are trying to do an analysis using a total lack of knowledge of Russian hockey, or aspects of economics that affect money for recreation instead of necessities. When you compare what your taxpayers shell out to what the results are that they are getting for their efforts, its as if the money was being flushed down the toilet.

 

[Kshahdoo]

This has nothing to do with the fact that what Yak said wasn't true (Russia hasn't been better than the US/Canada in the WJC over the last decade), and that's what was bring pointed out

Because the implication was the WJC results indicated Russia was getting better, and I had the WJC winners list right in front of me, I also compared the decades before the most recent to see if there was evidence that Russia was getting better (using the criteria/points system Yak brought up) - the evidence didn't support this view either



I wouldn't expect you to say anything else

Well, we've been on par with Canada and US over the last decade, despite all our problems. Now we have much less problems, than we had 20-25 years ago, and our hockey system starts to work much better, so we can expect even better results from Russian players' new generation. I think, it sounds pretty logical.

 

[Nino33]

In my post, I clearly state that I base my claims about resources on the data that is published on the IIHF website. Please don't shoot the messenger. Its all there. You guys are trying to do an analysis using a total lack of knowledge of Russian hockey, or aspects of economics that affect money for recreation instead of necessities. When you compare what your taxpayers shell out to what the results are that they are getting for their efforts, its as if the money was being flushed down the toilet.

I didn't shoot the messenger, just wished you'd provided a link (like I provided a link when I pointed out your WJC claims were false...interesting you don't acknowledge you were wrong, and figure wishing for a link is shooting the messenger, and also take the opportunity to bad mouth what other countries do too)

My only analysis was on your WJC claim that Russia has done better than the US/Canada over the last decade...I don't need a knowledge of Russian hockey or economics to add up 3-2-1 points for Gold-Silver-Bronze (your criteria)

 

[Nino33]

Well, we've been on par with Canada and US over the last decade, despite all our problems. Now we have much less problems, than we had 20-25 years ago, and our hockey system starts to work much better, so we can expect even better results from Russian players' new generation. I think, it sounds pretty logical.

And if Yak had said that, I would have never posted

 

[Yakushev72]

I didn't shoot the messenger, just wished you'd provided a link (like I provided a link when I pointed out your WJC claims were false...interesting you don't acknowledge you were wrong, and figure wishing for a link is shooting the messenger, and also take the opportunity to bad mouth what other countries do too)

My only analysis was on your WJC claim that Russia has done better than the US/Canada over the last decade...I don't need a knowledge of Russian hockey or economics to add up 3-2-1 points for Gold-Silver-Bronze (your criteria)

www.iihf.com, Member Associations.

 

[Nino33]

www.iihf.com, Member Associations.

I see nothing on the Member Association pages about how much money is spent...where is this?



Or is the first half of your statement not true, just like the last half was not true?

Measuring hockey resources as expressed on the IIHF website, both the United States and Canada spend about 8-10 times more money and other resources on hockey development than does Russia. Russian hockey resources are increasing only incrementally. And yet, if you look at the WJC over the last 10 years and count total medals earned, assigning 3 points for Gold, 2 for Silver and 1 for Bronze, Russia scores a higher ranking than both the USA and Canada. Russia doesn't put much into it, but they are actually getting a fair amount out.

 

[Yakushev72]

In doing research, sometimes everything isn't neatly laid out for you. According to IIHF stats about member organizations, Canada has roughly 24% of the population of Russia (35 million in comparison to 142 million Russians), and yet Canada has six times as many indoor rinks (3,300 in comparison with Russia's 560), and six times as many players (637,000 as compared to Russia's 110,000). Despite being much smaller than Russia population-wise, Canada is spending more than six times more than Russia just on building rinks and hiring coaches, referees, maintenance workers and all kinds of others to make playing hockey possible. If you just look at it from the standpoint of investment, at least in international tournaments, all that spending isn't consistently paying off in wins.

 

[Nino33]

In doing research, sometimes everything isn't neatly laid out for you. According to IIHF stats about member organizations, Canada has roughly 24% of the population of Russia (35 million in comparison to 142 million Russians), and yet Canada has six times as many indoor rinks (3,300 in comparison with Russia's 560), and six times as many players (637,000 as compared to Russia's 110,000). Despite being much smaller than Russia population-wise, Canada is spending more than six times more than Russia just on building rinks and hiring coaches, referees, maintenance workers and all kinds of others to make playing hockey possible.

You said 8-10 times more...so you were wrong about that too (and add in outdoor rinks too and Canada has less than 3 times more, and Russia has more than the US!) Countries ranked by number of ice hockey rinks 2017/18 | Statista

I didn't trust that you presented accurate figures, and it turns out you didn't


P.S. The Russian government spends over half a billion dollars a year propping up the KHL SKA (KHL) earned $124M in 2018-2019 season sure seems like Russia's spending a lot of money on hockey to me