Speculation: History

[SakuKoivu11]

Does anyone remember back in 1996 was there a rumour Jeremy Roenick at the time was the number 1 center in his prime for Chicago, rumoured to be traded to Montreal for Pierre Turgenev?

Thought a topic we could discuss Habs history.

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[417]

Don't know...but how did we end up with a washed Shayne Corson and Murray Baron instead lol?

Truly one of my least favorite trades of all time.

 

[angusyoung]

Does anyone remember back in 1996 was there a rumour Jeremy Roenick at the time was the number 1 center in his prime for Chicago, rumoured to be traded to Montreal for Pierre Turgenev?

Thought a topic we could discuss Habs history.

Was that the French Russian by any chance?

 

[MakeTheGoalsLarger]

Don't know...but how did we end up with a washed Shayne Corson and Murray Baron instead lol?

Truly one of my least favorite trades of all time.

Corson went to the olympics the following year. He wasn't washed up at the time of trade.Still a bad trade though.

 

[Max2]

The line of Kharlamov-Turgenev-Starshinov was amazing in 72!

 

[OnTheRun]

Don't know...but how did we end up with a washed Shayne Corson and Murray Baron instead lol?

Truly one of my least favorite trades of all time.

Money.

When the main motivation behind a trade is to slash the payroll, the collateral is you're also slashing on the talent you get back since you're actively looking for cheaper players as replacement.

 

[BLONG7]

At one point, down the middle we had Turgeon, Damphousse, and Koivu................a couple of months later we had Koivu.......terrible times guys...terrible.
Koivu left on his own, for years......sad. Slash and cut payroll was the narrative....Mol$on$ at the helm that time too.

 

[FloJack]

I’m more interested in when Shannahan was being dealt from Hartford. Apparently the Habs balked on discussions when the main ask was Koivu. Anyone remember that?

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

At one point, down the middle we had Turgeon, Damphousse, and Koivu................a couple of months later we had Koivu.......terrible times guys...terrible.
Koivu left on his own, for years......sad. Slash and cut payroll was the narrative....Mol$on$ at the helm that time too.

That's the thing that I always bring up whenever people focus on the Roy trade as the true turning point for the franchise. We actually got a reasonable (on paper at the time at least) return for Patty and we still had a very strong center line, plus a few other good elements. The true nosedive was the Turgeon/Damphousse trades, those truly broke us for years.

 

[MXD]

That's the thing that I always bring up whenever people focus on the Roy trade as the true turning point for the franchise. We actually got a reasonable (on paper at the time at least) return for Patty and we still had a very strong center line, plus a few other good elements. The true nosedive was the Turgeon/Damphousse trades, those truly broke us for years.

Leclair and Desjardins for Recchi was arguably worse (well Damphousse was just dumped).

 

[HuGo Sham]

Does anyone remember back in 1996 was there a rumour Jeremy Roenick at the time was the number 1 center in his prime for Chicago, rumoured to be traded to Montreal for Pierre Turgenev?

Thought a topic we could discuss Habs history.

not only played C, but wrote a masterpiece novel "Fathers and Sons"

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Leclair and Desjardins for Recchi was arguably worse (well Damphousse was just dumped).

At least Recchi was a young-ish , PPG top 6 winger at the time, it wasn't a complete waste of assets. Recchi was a good piece to add to the strong center line we still had , I could see the logic behind the trade back then and it didn't make the team any weaker short term.

 

[MXD]

At least Recchi was a young-ish , PPG top 6 winger at the time, it wasn't a complete waste of assets. Recchi was a good piece to add to the strong center line we still had , I could see the logic behind the trade back then and it didn't make the team any weaker short to mid term.

Well.. When you're on the "1" side of a 3-for-1 trade and end up getting the third best player of the deal, and you end up acquiring a small playmaking winger that you end up pairing up with a small playmaking forward in the era of the big power forward, all the while giving up a power forward and a player that was not only better than Recchi during the "duration" of the trade, but also playing a much more valuable position, which meant having to retort to players that were suboptimal to take his place on the depth chart, you're making a super awful trade. I do agree though that part of the reasons why this trade was awful is that Recchi ended up playing a lot with Saku Koivu, which were certainly not complementary players, and definitely not the kind of players that Recchi historically had success playing with.

For all the talk about Andrei Markov being generally underrated, Eric Desjardins was even more underrated.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Well.. When you're on the "1" side of a 3-for-1 trade and end up getting the third best player of the deal, and you end up acquiring a small playmaking winger that you end up pairing up with a small playmaking forward in the era of the big power forward, all the while giving up a power forward and a player that was not only better than Recchi during the "duration" of the trade, but also playing a much more valuable position, which meant having to retort to players that were suboptimal to take his place on the depth chart, you're making a super awful trade. I do agree though that part of the reasons why this trade was awful is that Recchi ended up playing a lot with Saku Koivu, which were certainly not complementary players, and definitely not the kind of players that Recchi historically had success playing with.

For all the talk about Andrei Markov being generally underrated, Eric Desjardins was even more underrated.

I was only talking about the short term, 94-95, 95-96 time frame. As time went on the trade became very bad for us obviously but for a while Recchi was a net positive IMO. He had a couple of very productive seasons with us after the trade. I'd still argue it wasn't a death blow to the team in itself the way the Turgeon and Damphousse trades that came after were.

 

[MXD]

I was only talking about the short term, 94-95, 95-96 time frame. As time went on the trade became very bad for us obviously but for a while Recchi was a net positive IMO. He had a couple of very productive seasons with us after the trade. I'd still argue it wasn't a death blow to the team in itself the way the Turgeon and Damphousse trades that came after were.

Well....
His best season with the team was when he played with Damphousse and Turgeon. And he was no better than either of them. Playing wing and contributing generally not much besides offense.

 

[JianYang]

I’m more interested in when Shannahan was being dealt from Hartford. Apparently the Habs balked on discussions when the main ask was Koivu. Anyone remember that?

The only koivu rumor I recall during that era was koivu and malakhov for pavel bure, who was disgruntled in Vancouver at the time.

Bure hated the spotlight though, so I wonder how Montreal would have ended up for him in an alternate universe.

I also heard yzerman rumors in the mid 90s. I think it was a package involving Schneider but don't remember the details. Yzerman had become a whipping boy for Detroit's playoff failures up to that point but it's a good thing they hung on to him.

I also seem to remember that yzerman would have refused playing for Canadian teams though so maybe the trade never happens regardless.

 

[JianYang]

That's the thing that I always bring up whenever people focus on the Roy trade as the true turning point for the franchise. We actually got a reasonable (on paper at the time at least) return for Patty and we still had a very strong center line, plus a few other good elements. The true nosedive was the Turgeon/Damphousse trades, those truly broke us for years.

Its hard to pin down the habs turning point. The habs were dying a slow death with an accumulation of poor asset management and trading that started years before the roy trade. That trade just happened to be the most notable, so it naturally gets referred to as the turning point.

My problem with the return on the roy deal is that they traded roy so fast. Did they even do a diligent job to see what else was out there at the time? I think they could have got a few teams playing off each other if they remained patient patient to sweeten the pot. Instead, I think they were more concerned with getting getting out of the circus atmosphere asap.

You can maybe justify the trade in the sense that you got a good young forward in Rucinsky, and a good goalie prospect in Thibault. Those are two players you could potentially build around, but adding Mike Keane to the mix put it over the top as a poor value deal for Montreal.

In retrospect, it was even worse because Thibault turned out to be a generic starter at best. Rucinsky was fine, but kovalenko was a generic top 6 player who had no upside.

The habs struck out on this trade both in terms of value, and also on realized upside.

 

[FloJack]

The only koivu rumor I recall during that era was koivu and malakhov for pavel bure, who was disgruntled in Vancouver at the time.

Bure hated the spotlight though, so I wonder how Montreal would have ended up for him in an alternate universe.

I also heard yzerman rumors in the mid 90s. I think it was a package involving Schneider but don't remember the details. Yzerman had become a whipping boy for Detroit's playoff failures up to that point but it's a good thing they hung on to him.

I also seem to remember that yzerman would have refused playing for Canadian teams though so maybe the trade never happens regardless.

I’m pretty sure Roy for Yzerman was that rumour?

Never heard the Bure one but I guess with Val around at the time it would make a little sense to have been an idea.

I’m a huge Koivu fan, but thinking of adding 27 year old Shannahan to Damphousse, Turgeon and Recchi could’ve been a much different Habs. Of course the budget cuts in the late 90’s would’ve messed that up too. And who knows, maybe this only ever existed in my head. Haha.

 

[JianYang]

I’m pretty sure Roy for Yzerman was that rumour?

Never heard the Bure one but I guess with Val around at the time it would make a little sense to have been an idea.

I’m a huge Koivu fan, but thinking of adding 27 year old Shannahan to Damphousse, Turgeon and Recchi could’ve been a much different Habs. Of course the budget cuts in the late 90’s would’ve messed that up too. And who knows, maybe this only ever existed in my head. Haha.

I live in Vancouver area so maybe the bure rumor got more play here than it did in Montreal.

As for the habs budget in the late 90s, there may have been a certain amount of cuts, but I think the biggest factor was that the big spenders had skyrocketing payrolls at the time, and the habs did not keep up. The exchange rate was brutal as well, and only the leafs were willing to keep up with big spenders south of the border.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

The only koivu rumor I recall during that era was koivu and malakhov for pavel bure, who was disgruntled in Vancouver at the time.

Bure hated the spotlight though, so I wonder how Montreal would have ended up for him in an alternate universe.

I also heard yzerman rumors in the mid 90s. I think it was a package involving Schneider but don't remember the details. Yzerman had become a whipping boy for Detroit's playoff failures up to that point but it's a good thing they hung on to him.

I also seem to remember that yzerman would have refused playing for Canadian teams though so maybe the trade never happens regardless.

Roy for Yzerman was a rumor that kept popping up around 94 iirc

 

[FloJack]

I live in Vancouver area so maybe the bure rumor got more play here than it did in Montreal.

As for the habs budget in the late 90s, there may have been a certain amount of cuts, but I think the biggest factor was that the big spenders had skyrocketing payrolls at the time, and the habs did not keep up. The exchange rate was brutal as well, and only the leafs were willing to keep up with big spenders south of the border.

Oh yeah, the dollar was horrible and I think Molson’s finances were too, double trouble.

 

[CDN24]

Oh yeah, the dollar was horrible and I think Molson’s finances were too, double trouble.

Molson was a public company and had to consolidate the results of the habs in their FS. it was killing their bottom line. it was a big part of it.