Highest scoring defenseman vs Norris trophy winner

Hockey Outsider · Mar 30, 2015

Difference in points between Norris winner and leading scorer

Season	Norris winner	Points	Leader	Percentage
1953-54	Red Kelly	49	49	100.0%
1954-55	Doug Harvey	49	49	100.0%
1955-56	Doug Harvey	44	51	86.3%
1956-57	Doug Harvey	50	50	100.0%
1957-58	Doug Harvey	41	46	89.1%
1958-59	Tom Johnson	39	51	76.5%
1959-60	Doug Harvey	27	45	60.0%
1960-61	Doug Harvey	39	39	100.0%
1961-62	Doug Harvey	30	47	63.8%
1962-63	Pierre Pilote	26	39	66.7%
1963-64	Pierre Pilote	53	53	100.0%
1964-65	Pierre Pilote	59	59	100.0%
1965-66	Jacques Laperriere	31	36	86.1%
1966-67	Harry Howell	40	52	76.9%
1967-68	Bobby Orr	31	47	66.0%
1968-69	Bobby Orr	64	64	100.0%
1969-70	Bobby Orr	120	120	100.0%
1970-71	Bobby Orr	139	139	100.0%
1971-72	Bobby Orr	117	117	100.0%
1972-73	Bobby Orr	101	101	100.0%
1973-74	Bobby Orr	122	122	100.0%
1974-75	Bobby Orr	135	135	100.0%
1975-76	Denis Potvin	98	98	100.0%
1976-77	Larry Robinson	85	85	100.0%
1977-78	Denis Potvin	94	94	100.0%
1978-79	Denis Potvin	101	101	100.0%
1979-80	Larry Robinson	75	80	93.8%
1980-81	Randy Carlyle	83	83	100.0%
1981-82	Doug Wilson	85	89	95.5%
1982-83	Rod Langway	32	96	33.3%
1983-84	Rod Langway	33	126	26.2%
1984-85	Paul Coffey	121	121	100.0%
1985-86	Paul Coffey	138	138	100.0%
1986-87	Ray Bourque	95	95	100.0%
1987-88	Ray Bourque	81	91	89.0%
1988-89	Chris Chelios	73	113	64.6%
1989-90	Ray Bourque	84	103	81.6%
1990-91	Ray Bourque	94	103	91.3%
1991-92	Brian Leetch	102	102	100.0%
1992-93	Chris Chelios	73	97	75.3%
1993-94	Ray Bourque	91	91	100.0%
1994-95	Paul Coffey	58	58	100.0%
1995-96	Chris Chelios	72	85	84.7%
1996-97	Brian Leetch	78	78	100.0%
1997-98	Rob Blake	50	59	84.7%
1998-99	Al MacInnis	62	62	100.0%
1999-00	Chris Pronger	62	73	84.9%
2000-01	Nicklas Lidstrom	71	79	89.9%
2001-02	Nicklas Lidstrom	59	59	100.0%
2002-03	Nicklas Lidstrom	62	68	91.2%
2003-04	Scott Niedermayer	54	58	93.1%
2005-06	Nicklas Lidstrom	80	80	100.0%
2006-07	Nicklas Lidstrom	62	69	89.9%
2007-08	Nicklas Lidstrom	70	70	100.0%
2008-09	Zdeno Chara	50	73	68.5%
2009-10	Duncan Keith	69	76	90.8%
2010-11	Nicklas Lidstrom	62	68	91.2%
2011-12	Erik Karlsson	78	78	100.0%
2012-13	P.K. Subban	38	38	100.0%
2013-14	Duncan Keith	61	74	82.4%
2014-15	Erik Karlsson	66	66	100.0%
2015-16	Drew Doughty	51	82	62.2%
2016-17	Brent Burns	76	76	100.0%
2017-18	Victor Hedman	63	68	92.6%
2018-19	Mark Giordano	74	83	89.2%
2019-20	Roman Josi	65	75	86.7%
2020-21	Adam Fox	47	48	97.9%
2021-22	Cale Makar	86	96	89.6%
2022-23	Erik Karlsson	101	101	100.0%

This table shows the difference in points between the Norris trophy winner and the leading scorer (among defensemen) each season. For example, in 2010 Duncan Keith scored 69 points, but the highest-scoring defenseman (Mike Green) scored 76 points. Thus, Keith scored 91% as much as the leader (69/76).

Over the past 69 seasons, the Norris trophy winner was the highest-scoring defenseman 34 times (49%) (either outright leader or tied for the lead). He scored at least 80% as much of the highest-scoring defenseman 57 times (83%).

In twelve instances, the Norris trophy winner scored less than 80% as many points as the leading scorer. There were three players who did this twice - Chris Chelios, Doug Harvey and Rod Langway. Not surprisingly, these players were excellent defensively.

Interestingly, there was a disproportionate number of such results between 1959 and 1968. Six times in a span of ten years, the Norris trophy winners were far behind the leading scorer. The likely explanations are 1) offensive contribution from defensemen were considered less valuable (this was before Bobby Orr's prime) and 2) given that this was just before expansion, the awards voters spent more time actually watching the defensemen play (and could measure intangibles like defensive ability, physical play, etc) rather than placing an over-reliance on statistics.

Rod Langway's results are massive aberrations. In 67 of the past 69 seasons, the Norris winner scored at least 60% as many points as the leading scorer. This makes sense - offensive contributions are valuable and there's only so far back one can drop offensively before other blueliners would be more valuable overall. During his consecutive Norris trophy victories, Langway scored just 33% and 26% as much as the highest scoring defenseman! Granted, that was a Gretzy-fuelled Coffey, but if we ignore him as an outlier, he still would have scored 43% and 34% as much of the "adjusted" leaders. Thus, even if we ignore the "Coffey effect", Langway would still be a massive outlier by historical standards. Yes, he was probably the best defensive defenseman in the league, but was Langway (65 points over those two seasons) so much better defensively than Bourque (169 points), Potvin (151 points) or Howe (120 points) that he was a superior all-around player? I know that most regulars on the History board have heard this argument many times, but it was amazing to see just how much of an outlier Langway was.

Hockey Outsider · Mar 30, 2015

Norris trophy voting outcome for highest scoring defenseman

Season	Leading scorer	Margin	Norris rank
1953-54	Red Kelly*	19.5%	1
1954-55	Doug Harvey*	8.9%	1
1955-56	Bill Gadsby*	2.0%	2
1956-57	Doug Harvey*	22.0%	1
1957-58	Bill Gadsby*	12.2%	2
1958-59	Bill Gadsby*	30.8%	2
1959-60	Pierre Pilote*	36.4%	4
1960-61	Doug Harvey*	11.4%	1
1961-62	Jean-Guy Talbot	11.9%	3
1962-63	Doug Harvey*	39.3%	6
1963-64	Pierre Pilote*	47.2%	1
1964-65	Pierre Pilote*	68.6%	1
1965-66	Pierre Pilote*	2.9%	2
1966-67	Pierre Pilote*	26.8%	2
1967-68	Mike McMahon	9.3%	8
1968-69	Bobby Orr*	14.3%	1
1969-70	Bobby Orr*	172.7%	1
1970-71	Bobby Orr*	120.6%	1
1971-72	Bobby Orr*	60.3%	1
1972-73	Bobby Orr*	87.0%	1
1973-74	Bobby Orr*	48.8%	1
1974-75	Bobby Orr*	77.6%	1
1975-76	Denis Potvin*	36.1%	1
1976-77	Larry Robinson*	6.3%	1
1977-78	Denis Potvin*	19.0%	1
1978-79	Denis Potvin*	38.4%	1
1979-80	Mark Howe*	6.7%	5
1980-81	Randy Carlyle	9.2%	1
1981-82	Paul Coffey*	4.7%	3
1982-83	Paul Coffey*	28.0%	5
1983-84	Paul Coffey*	31.3%	2
1984-85	Paul Coffey*	40.7%	1
1985-86	Paul Coffey*	68.3%	1
1986-87	Ray Bourque*	17.3%	1
1987-88	Gary Suter	9.6%	3
1988-89	Paul Coffey*	50.7%	2
1989-90	Paul Coffey*	14.4%	4
1990-91	Al MacInnis*	9.6%	2
1991-92	Brian Leetch*	18.6%	1
1992-93	Phil Housley*	11.5%	5
1993-94	Ray Bourque*	2.2%	1
1994-95	Paul Coffey*	34.9%	1
1995-96	Brian Leetch*	3.7%	3
1996-97	Brian Leetch*	14.7%	1
1997-98	Nicklas Lidstrom*	3.5%	2
1998-99	Al MacInnis*	8.8%	1
1999-00	Nicklas Lidstrom*	17.7%	2
2000-01	Brian Leetch*	11.3%	5
2001-02	Nicklas Lidstrom*	0.0%	1
2001-02	Sergei Gonchar	0.0%	4
2002-03	Al MacInnis*	1.5%	2
2003-04	Sergei Gonchar	7.4%	9
2005-06	Nicklas Lidstrom*	12.7%	1
2006-07	Scott Niedermayer*	3.0%	2
2007-08	Nicklas Lidstrom*	7.7%	1
2008-09	Mike Green	14.1%	2
2009-10	Mike Green	10.1%	2
2010-11	Lubomir Visnovsky	9.7%	4
2011-12	Erik Karlsson	47.2%	1
2012-13	PK Subban	0.0%	1
2012-13	Kris Letang	0.0%	3
2013-14	Erik Karlsson	21.3%	7
2014-15	Erik Karlsson	10.0%	1
2015-16	Erik Karlsson	9.3%	2
2016-17	Brent Burns	5.6%	1
2017-18	John Carlson	1.5%	5
2018-19	Brent Burns	12.2%	2
2019-20	John Carlson	15.4%	2
2020-21	Tyson Barrie	2.1%	NR
2021-22	Roman Josi	11.6%	2
2022-23	Erik Karlsson	32.9%	1

This table shows how the NHL's highest scoring defenseman fared in Norris trophy voting each season. I've shown their margin of victory over second place, expressed in terms of points and percentages.

Of the past 69 highest scoring defensemen, 34 of them (49%) won the Norris trophy that year. (Note that there were two seasons where there was a tie. In 2002, there was a tie between Lidstrom and Gonchar, and in 2013, there was a tie between Subban and Letang. In both cases I'm counting it as the leading scorer winning the Norris, and disregarding the outcomes for Gonchar and Letang). Another 18 were runner-up and 4 more finished third. In total 56 of the highest scoring defensemen (81%) were finalists for the Norris trophy.

One can look beyond a simple binary (yes/no) analysis and consider the margin. Twenty-two defensemen led their position in scoring by a 25%+ margin, and fifteen of those (68%) won the Norris. All but three were Norris finalists (the exceptions were Pierre Pilote in 1960, Doug Harvey in 1963, and Paul Coffey in 1983).

Conversely, of the 25 defensemen who led their position in scoring by less than 10%, only nine (36%) won the Norris (see my note above about 2002 and 2013). Still, 19 of them were Norris finalists (79%). Not surprisingly, great offense will almost always get a defenseman on the Norris trophy shortlist, but they need a dominant performance to have high odds of winning.

There were several defensemen who led their position in scoring multiple times without winning the Norris - Paul Coffey (five times!); Bill Gadsby and Pierre Pilote (three times each) and Al MacInnis, Brian Leetch, Erik Karlsson, Mike Green, Nicklas Lidstrom, Sergei Gonchar and John Carlson (twice each). There's a mix of defensemen who were poor defensively, and those who were great all-around players but simply lost out to those who were even better (or were victims of questionable voting). Coffey even lost three Norris trophies when he led his position in scoring by a 20%+ margin.

There were only five occasions when the leading scorer among defensemen fell out of the top five:

In 1963, Doug Harvey finished 6th in Norris voting - a surprising result given that Harvey is one the greatest defensive defenseman of all-time. Perhaps, at age 38, he was no longer effective in his own zone, or maybe he was compared to his previous standards. He also could have been penalized for the Rangers not making the playoffs.
In 1968, Mike McMahon finished 8th in Norris voting. He played on the Minnesota North Stars and racked up a lot of points on an expansion team. They made the playoffs but given how the playoff seeding was determined that year, it wasn't a big accomplishment.
In 2004, Sergei Gonchar finished 9th in Norris voting (the worst-ever result for a leading scorer). He was traded mid-year but spent most of the season on the disappointing Washington Capitals who plummeted in the standings despite being a strong team on paper (Jagr, Bondra, Kolzig, Lang).
In 2014, Erik Karlsson finished 7th in Norris voting. He won the Norris trophy two seasons earlier and only scored 4 fewer points in 2014, despite it being a lower-scoring season. Perhaps he was punished for the Senators not reaching the playoffs.
In 2021, Tyson Barrie became the only defenseman in NHL history to lead his position in scoring, and not receiving a single vote for the Norris trophy. His teammate Darnell Nurse (who finished 7th in Norris voting) was clearly better. Barrie wasn't great defensively and I think his production was discounted due to getting so much ice time with the league's top two scorers. He scored a grand total of five points without collaborating with McDavid and/or Draisaitl.

Voight · Mar 30, 2015

This thread was made for Erik Karlsson.

Sens Rule · Mar 31, 2015

Was Langway at his peak perhaps the best defensive defenceman ever? Being the man on a Caps team that massively improved defensively for 2 years after his arrival? Langway was physical, huge and strong.

How does prime Caps Langway measure up with say peak Stevens on the Devils? Or peak Savard on the Habs? Or defensively at their best Robinson, Potvin, Chelios?

I am just old enough to remember Langway from after his peak form and do not have the context.

Big Phil · Mar 31, 2015

Sens Rule said:
Was Langway at his peak perhaps the best defensive defenceman ever? Being the man on a Caps team that massively improved defensively for 2 years after his arrival? Langway was physical, huge and strong.

How does prime Caps Langway measure up with say peak Stevens on the Devils? Or peak Savard on the Habs? Or defensively at their best Robinson, Potvin, Chelios?

I am just old enough to remember Langway from after his peak form and do not have the context.

Arguably at least.

WingsFan95 · Mar 31, 2015

I get the Langway argument, I do, but Bourque and Potvin were just collectively more valuable. They were great defensively while being substantially better offensively. That equals more impact to me.

Let's make a basketball comparison, who would you rather have as a small forward:

Player A: 5.1 BK, 12.5 P, 1.5 AS, 12.5 RB, 2.2 ST
Player B: 2.5 BK, 32.1 P, 8.5 AS, 7.5 RB, 2.2 ST

If you're going Langway, you're going with the guy who gives you more sound and reliable defense but a significant downgrade on offensive contribution. It just doesn't equate to me.

Mrb1p · Apr 1, 2015

WingsFan95 said:
I get the Langway argument, I do, but Bourque and Potvin were just collectively more valuable. They were great defensively while being substantially better offensively. That equals more impact to me.

Let's make a basketball comparison, who would you rather have as a small forward:

Player A: 5.1 BK, 12.5 P, 1.5 AS, 12.5 RB, 2.2 ST
Player B: 2.5 BK, 32.1 P, 8.5 AS, 7.5 RB, 2.2 ST

If you're going Langway, you're going with the guy who gives you more sound and reliable defense but a significant downgrade on offensive contribution. It just doesn't equate to me.

It's quite clearly some kind of pshychological bias. Let's move closer to our days... With the 2012-2013 Norris. Subban won the Norris, but a lot of people were clamoring for Suter to win it, with Letang being close in points and in play, but having no real shot at it for his reputation. While Subban severly outscored Suter for modern days standards*, the debate was still raging on the "defensive" side of the game. When people watched Subban, they expected him to make A) A dominating offensive play or B) A defensive mistakes. When people watch Suter they expected him to make A) Safe offensive plays B) Great defensive plays. While there is two different expectations for both players, one of them is a lot harder to fullfil than the other and thats great offensive plays, but since it's expected of Subban, they don't really matter. When Subban makes a great offensive play, it just adds up to the pile, when Suter makes one, it's an highlight play, since it's unexpected. When watching Subban, you expect him to make a mistake defensively, thus when he makes it, it stands out to you and you take note. Thats would be comfirmation bias, the same applies to defensive plays from Suter and the same applies to offensive plays from Subban. Where there's a problem it's defensive plays from Subban. If he plays well defensively all game but coughs up the puck in the last minute trying to get a last goal but he gets scored on, did Subban play well ? Or is that mistake something that means he played bad defensively ? Most of the time Subban will be considered "bad" because of it. It's the same for every player of this kind. Be it offensive, defensive or a goalie.

*60 PPG being the norm for elite defenders, .90PPG being a serious outlier.(Only Lidstrom, Zubov, McCabe, Karlsson, Letang, Subban and Green did it in the last 10, two of them doing it in a high scoring year coming off the lockout)

Big Phil · Apr 1, 2015

WingsFan95 said:
I get the Langway argument, I do, but Bourque and Potvin were just collectively more valuable. They were great defensively while being substantially better offensively. That equals more impact to me.

Let's make a basketball comparison, who would you rather have as a small forward:

Player A: 5.1 BK, 12.5 P, 1.5 AS, 12.5 RB, 2.2 ST
Player B: 2.5 BK, 32.1 P, 8.5 AS, 7.5 RB, 2.2 ST

If you're going Langway, you're going with the guy who gives you more sound and reliable defense but a significant downgrade on offensive contribution. It just doesn't equate to me.

It doesn't age very well (Langway's Norrises). But a couple of other things. For starters, Potvin had been in the league for 11 years at this time in 1984. Maybe there was a bit of voter burnout with him. He was basically either winning the Norris or winning the Cup at this time. Langway did manage to string together a couple of seasons where he literally just took a team on his back. Granted, we saw Bourque do this for a long, long time and we all know Potvin could do this as well. But Langway was a new face. It was such a turnaround that the Caps did once he came over that the Norris seemed natural for him. Unfortunately he didn't maintain this level for a that long and this is what separates him from top-10 defenseman material.

But at the time, he could sure dominate and carry a team.

trentmccleary · Apr 5, 2015

60 years Total:

Scoring Rank = # of Norris Trophy's
1st = 32 Norris's
2nd = 10 Norris's
3rd = 5 Norris's
4-5 = 3 Norris's
6-10 = 6 Norris's
11-45 = 4 Norris's

So 1st has won over 50% (53%).
1st & 2nd has won almost 3/4's (70%).
1st-3rd = over 3/4's (78%).
1st-5th = 83%
1st-10th = 93%
11th-45th = Langway & Chara

Hockey Outsider · Jun 25, 2015

Updated for 2015. Erik Karlsson won the Norris this year and was the highest scoring defenseman (by a 10% margin over Subban and Burns).

vadim sharifijanov · Jun 25, 2015

what's interesting to me is if the norris doesn't go to the highest scoring guy, how many guys are ahead of him. and i had a hunch that the popularization of +/- as a mainstream statistic might play a role here, but i ran the numbers and it doesn't seem to have at all.

i didn't account for guys like mohns or ruotsalainen, who may/may not have actually been defensemen. ruotsalainen doesn't make a difference to anyone but langway though. and obviously langway was so far back in scoring that it doesn't really matter.

PLAYER | POINTS | LEADER | DIFFERENCE | RANK | +/- RANK*
Doug Harvey 1955-56 | 44 | 51 | 86.3% | 3 | N/A
Doug Harvey 1957-58 | 41 | 46 | 89.1% | 3 | N/A
Tom Johnson 1958-59 | 39 | 51 | 76.5% | 2 | N/A
Doug Harvey 1959-60 | 27 | 45 | 60% | 7 | N/A
Doug Harvey 1961-62 | 30 | 47 | 63.8% | 7 | N/A
Pierre Pilote 1962-63 | 26 | 39 | 66.7% | 5** | N/A
Jacques Laperriere 1965-66 | 31 | 36 | 86.1% | 5 | N/A
Harry Howell 1966-67 | 40 | 52 | 76.9% | 4 | N/A
Bobby Orr 1967-68 | 31 | 47 | 66% | 10*** | 2
Doug Wilson 1981-82 | 85 | 89 | 95.5% | 2 | 76
Rod Langway 1982-83 | 32 | 96 | 33.3% | 43 | 86
Rod Langway 1983-84 | 33 | 126 | 26.2% | 43 | 35
Raymond Bourque 1987-88 | 81 | 91 | 89% | 3 | 5
Chris Chelios 1988-89 | 73 | 113 | 64.6% | 4 | 5
Raymond Bourque 1989-90 | 84 | 103 | 81.6% | 3 | 3
Raymond Bourque 1990-91 | 94 | 103 | 91.3% | 2 | 3
Chris Chelios 1992-93 | 73 | 97 | 75.3% | 9 | 35
Chris Chelios 1995-96 | 72 | 85 | 84.7% | 4 | 13
Rob Blake 1997-98 | 50 | 59 | 84.7% | 8 **** | 164
Chris Pronger 1999-00 | 62 | 73 | 84.9% | 2 | 1
Nicklas Lidstrom 2000-01 | 71 | 79 | 89.9% | 2 | 45
Nicklas Lidstrom 2002-03 | 62 | 68 | 91.2% | 3 | 1
Scott Niedermayer 2003-04 | 54 | 58 | 93.1% | 2 | 11
Nicklas Lidstrom 2006-07 | 62 | 69 | 89.9% | 5 | 1
Zdeno Chara 2008-09 | 50 | 73 | 68.5% | 12 | 7
Duncan Keith 2009-10 | 69 | 76 | 90.8% | 2 | 9
Nicklas Lidstrom 2010-11 | 62 | 68 | 91.2% | 2 | 180
Duncan Keith 2013-14 | 61 | 74 | 82.4% | 2 | 9

* +/- rank among defensemen only
** 2nd in points/game (3rd if mohns counts, but pilote was behind him by less than a one hundredth of a point)
*** 1st in points/game
**** 1st in goals

no solid conclusions yet, except that it's pretty rare for the norris to not go to one of the top two scorers (only 11 times since expansion, 12 if you count orr in '68 which is a grey area). that's about one in four.

only 5 guys since expansion finished out of the top ten. that's pretty much one every decade.

and then you have the langway outlier.

but i guess my hunch in running these numbers was that i almost feel like voters in recent years are going out of their way to say "well, we went with the highest scorer last time. gotta vote for someone else this time so they don't think we're just looking at the stats sheet. who's #2?" since the lockout, the leading scorer has won it 5 times, and the #2 guy has won it 4 times. since 2000, the leading scorer has won it 7 times, and the #2 guy has also won it 7 times. if 2000 does indeed represent a shift in how norris voting works, isn't it interesting that it coincides with the league hitting 30 teams?

Hockey Outsider · Jun 22, 2016

The first two posts have been updated for 2016.

Drew Doughty won the Norris trophy, but scored just 62% as much as the highest scoring defenseman (Erik Karlsson). There have only been three occasions in the history of the trophy when the Norris winner scored so little relative to the highest-scoring defensemen - Rod Langway in 1983 and 1984, and Doug Harvey in 1960.

Karlsson had a historic season offensively. He was the only defenseman aside from Bobby Orr to ever lead the NHL in assists. He was the first defenseman in three decades to finish in the top five in scoring (Paul Coffey did that, and won the Norris, in 1986). He also contributed a larger percentage of his team's offense than any defenseman in history aside from Bobby Orr.

On the other hand, Karlsson's team didn't make the playoffs. As I show in another thread, no defenseman has ever won the Norris while on a non-playoff team. I'm not saying that's fair or right, but those are the historical results. Also, Brent Burns' strong performance in the last quarter of the year (24 points in his last 21 games) made Karlsson's lead over his positional peers much less impressive. If Karlsson had, say, a 20% lead over his peers, it probably would have been impossible to deny him the trophy.

In summary, there are arguments for and against Karlsson winning the trophy. He would have been a deserving winner, but I don't think it's an outrage that Doughty won it.

Hockey Outsider · Jun 21, 2017

Updated for 2017.

Brent Burns, the highest-scoring defenseman, won the Norris trophy. This is the most common outcome historically.

Hockey Outsider · Nov 22, 2017

This post has been updated after the HFBoards server migration. I had to re-create some the data that I had, and I found a few minor differences (so the tables & commentary above are slightly different than the old version). I'm not yet certain if there were errors in the old version of this post, or in this version. If you see anything that looks questionable, let me know.

whatname · Nov 22, 2017

Some fool on youtube kept on arguing with me that the Norris trophy is awarded to the best defensive d-man. His argument: Orr was the best offensive defenseman in the league (which I agree on), and then he says he was also the best defensive defenseman in the league as evidenced by him winning the Norris. Yeah, like Leetch and Coffey were the best defensive d-men before.

Iapyi · Nov 23, 2017

whatname said:
Some fool on youtube kept on arguing with me that the Norris trophy is awarded to the best defensive d-man. His argument: Orr was the best offensive defenseman in the league (which I agree on), and then he says he was also the best defensive defenseman in the league as evidenced by him winning the Norris. Yeah, like Leetch and Coffey were the best defensive d-men before.

and you didn't use the examples of subban and karlsson winning to prove your point? sounds like you were being nice and didn't want to rub it in.

Hockey Outsider · Jun 20, 2018

This thread has been updated for 2018. The Norris winner (Hedman) scored 93% as much as the leading scorer, and the leading scorer (Carlson) finished 5th in Norris voting. It's not an uncommon result.

Hockey Outsider · Jun 19, 2019

Updated for 2019. Giordano scored 89% as much of the highest-scoring defenseman (Brent Burns, who finished runner-up). Both of these results are fairly typical.

Hockey Outsider · Sep 22, 2020

Updated for 2020. Josi scored 87% as much as the highest-scoring defenseman (John Carlson, who finished runner-up). Neither of these results are atypical.

John Carlson is now one of a handful of defensemen to lead his position in scoring twice while failing to win the Norris those years.

Hockey Outsider · Jun 30, 2021

Updated for 2021. What's interesting about this year is Tyson Barrie has become the first/only defenseman in NHL history to lead his position in scoring, without earning a single vote for the Norris trophy (more commentary added in post #2).

Hockey Outsider · Jul 4, 2021

Curious if this Twitter account copied my research without any attribution -

The thread was updated on Wednesday (June 30th). His tweet was posted today (July 3rd). The results are precisely the same. Then again, maybe we're both right, and he reached the same conclusion independently?

I Hate Blake Coleman · Jul 6, 2021

Hockey Outsider said:
Curious if this Twitter account copied my research without any attribution -

The thread was updated on Wednesday (June 30th). His tweet was posted today (July 3rd). The results are precisely the same. Then again, maybe we're both right, and he reached the same conclusion independently?

Does the PHWA post voting breakdowns? That could be it.

Leetch 94 · Jul 6, 2021

Wow, only 4 Defensemen who won the Norris Trophy cracked 100 points:

Bobby Orr, Denis Potvin, Paul Coffey and Brian Leetch.

I had the pleasure of watching 3 of them play. Wish I could have seen Orr back in the day too.

The Panther · Jul 6, 2021

Leetch 94 said:
Wow, only 4 Defensemen who won the Norris Trophy cracked 100 points:

Bobby Orr, Denis Potvin, Paul Coffey and Brian Leetch.

I had the pleasure of watching 3 of them play. Wish I could have seen Orr back in the day too.

There have been only 14 player-seasons in NHL history where D-men scored 100 points. These all occurred between 1969-70 and 1991-92; i.e., 14 occasions during that 23 season span -- never before, and never again since.

Of those 14 player-seasons, 10 resulted in Norris trophies.

The 4 that did not were:
-- Paul Coffey 1983-84: 126 points, +52, 2nd team All Star -- 2nd Norris
-- Paul Coffey 1988-89: 113 points, -10, 1st team All Star -- 2nd Norris
-- Paul Coffey 1989-90: 103 points, -25, 2nd team All Star -- 4th Norris
-- Al MacInnis 1990-91: 103 points, +42, 1st team All Star -- 2nd Norris

These results seem fair to me, except for Coffey in 1983-84, which I maintain was the legit Norris winner (and how did he only get 2nd-team All Star? He was +52 and 2nd in NHL scoring...). MacInnis was also deserving in 1990-91, but it was tough when he up against prime Bourque.

Voight · Jul 7, 2021

Highest scoring defenseman vs Norris trophy winner

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#winning

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PRICERSTOPDAPUCK

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F*** the oilers

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#winning

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