HHOF 2019

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Arselona, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. ted1971

    ted1971 History Of Hockey

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    1. Huge fan of Johnny Vermont, but he's in the Hall of the very good.
    2. See above
    3. Leach isn't a hall of fame player. He had one great season and 2 above average seasons.
    4. Richter has no shot. A lot of other goalie should get in before him. If it wasn't for the cup year, Richter would be a .500 goalie lifetime. Had more losing seasons then winning.
    5. Hall of the very good.
    6. No shot.
     
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  2. bobbyking

    bobbyking Registered User

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    I wonder what happens if we runout of legit candidates
     
  3. Mike Farkas

    Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    We'll induct Ciccarelli and Andrey...uhh...I don't know...
     
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  4. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Had to look that up, but yeah he has had more points than any other defenseman born after 1970. Burns and Karlsson likely will eventually catch him but even so they are 300 points back. Gonchar will be sitting in 16th place for a while. Yet there is Suter and Wilson ahead of him, none in the HHOF but the HOVG, which is where I lean for Gonchar. He just didn't have enough stellar seasons, and even then he had seasons where he finished 4th for the Norris. That was his peak. He needed more of those. It wasn't the strongest time for defensemen in his era, he could have stood out more.

    On the flip side he was good in the playoffs. Whether it was Washington in 1998 or Pittsburgh in 2008 and 2009, when his teams went deep he was a key reason. The Pens missed him in the 2009 season, they were never the same without him on the back end and they missed him when Ovechkin briefly knocked him out of the playoffs that year.

    I am trying to think how "borderline" he is. If there isn't that awful game by him in Game 7 against Montreal in 2010 where he lets Travis Moen of all people blow by him for a goal and the Pens win that series and their 2nd Cup in a row then we know Gonchar is part of that success - again. Then maybe his career doesn't take a nosedive after 2010 and he stays with the Pens. Who knows.

    Look, he's a Zubov/Wilson/Suter/Desjardins type. Lots of reasons to like them, but falls short of the legitimate defensemen in the HHOF.
     
  5. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    For 2019, I can't see them ever inducting Lecavalier............can they? Brad Richards is at least as good of a candidate and I wouldn't put him in. Both are eligible. Neither belong.

    I don't know how long they'll wait for guys like Fleury and Middleton. With Middleton the thing that bothers me is that he played in almost the exact same seasons as McDonald, played the same position, had the same sort of primes, shot the same way, and yet Middleton was better on a per game basis, probably peaked slightly higher and was better defensively (McDonald was more physical though). Not to mention each man played in the Cup final his final season. McDonald being a bit player in a winning role, Middleton being a more solid contributor in a losing case. So conventional wisdom suggests they both share the same fate right? They couldn't be more different. McDonald gets in on his first try in 1992 while Middleton is still waiting. All I can honestly chalk it up to is this. Does McDonald's moustache, his image of that big insurance goal in the Cup final and the image of him with his arms wrapped around the Cup the reasons he is in and the reasons someone at LEAST as good is waiting 26 years later? That is a large, large discrepancy and I'd like to think the HHOF isn't that petty. Or is Middleton and his 988 points just 12 shy of the magic number? It can't be that petty.

    As for Fleury, I am guessing he is sitting in Barrasso territory right now. Unpopular with the press and not welcome at parties where they serve caviar. That alone can keep you out if you are somewhat borderline to start. Ed Belfour would have been those guys too but his career was just too good to ignore. I think it is time for these guys, they were very important to their teams.

    Lastly, I am guessing Don Cherry is getting the Pete Rose treatment too. In other words, once he is dead they'll probably induct him. These are my candidates for 2019. Why not put them in already?
     
  6. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    @Big Phil, you think Elias gets in eventually? I do. I think he's in that Mullen/Anderson tier at worst and they put those guys in (they won cups and he did as well). He's obviously better than Andreychuk and Gillies.
     
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  7. GMR

    GMR Registered User

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    This would be a good year for Mikhailov, who should have been inducted before Yakushev anyway. He's deserving of the honor. I would like to see Martinec and Holecek get in as well. There's always been a bias against the Czech players who played from that era.

    I'm not a fan of having five or six guys automatically make it every year, just for the TV show and spectacle of it. This talk of Roenick, Leclair, Gonchar, etc. seems to be for the sole purpose of finding the normal amount of candidates to induct.
     
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  8. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    I would induct zero of Gonchar, Roenick and Leclair. They were either not good long enough, or didn't stand out enough among their position.

    I don't have him in. Some do. There is a debate about him for sure. I don't like using the Andreychuk or Gillies rule with any player because I don't even agree with them as the standard to begin with. I see him not being any better than Brad Richards, or Rod BrindAmour. Both good players who played for a while and did some good things, some serviceable things too.

    The thing with Elias is that while he had that nice back to back Cup run in 2000 and 2001 those Devils teams were never about star forwards. It was Brodeur and the defense led by Stevens. It was a committee of players up front like Arnott, Sykora, Elias, Gomez, Madden, Holik, etc. Nice depth, but no one is a HHOFer in my books.

    Elias just didn't have enough great years. Several "good" years, and even others that people don't remember. In 2003 he led the Devils with 57 points and they won the Cup. It goes to show you that even as a Cup winning team they didn't pride themselves on star power. Is this a HHOFer or a classic HOVG player? I think the latter. If he's in then why isn't Brian Propp?

    Mullen is a weak pick but Anderson was part of a dynasty and remembered as such. He scored some big time goals and did this sort of thing his whole career. No doubt that despite decent numbers in the regular season he is inducted because of what he did in the playoffs. Not many have Anderson's playoff record.
     
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  9. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    Well, is Middleton better than Elias? I'm not so sure...
     
  10. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    I'd say no. And Propp certainly isn't, either.

    And if I was reinventing the HHOF I'd have room for all three. Elias should be a no-brainer.
     
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  11. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Yes. From an individual level he was better. He had a better peak, better seasons overall, I think. If I am a GM I am taking him.
     
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  12. Vanzig

    Vanzig Registered User

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    I agree 100% as an individual talent MIDDLETON was better than ELIAS. ELIAS won Cups which is awesome and was no doubt a great player in how own right.

    If some wanna see some magic check out the RICK MIDDLETON GOALS Video on YouTube, He scored some of the most incredible goals ever and was possibly the Best 1 on 1 Player/Deker for 6 Season 1978-1984.

    Not to mention with Players who have Scored 400+ Goals in a Career he is #2 All Time in Shooting % (19.7) behind just Mike Bossy!!!

    Nice to see his Number being put up in the BOSTON BRUINS RAFTERS in a Week.
     
  13. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    I'd say Elias's 2001 season (where he finished third in League scoring) is better than any of Rick's seasons. Elias was a top ten scorer three times, Middleton twice (if you count '81 where he tied Jacques Richard in points but had fewer goals).

    Nifty was a fancier player, though.

    I agree that Middleton > McDonald.
     
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  14. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    You could probably argue Elias in 2001 had a better season than any Middleton year. But Elias has some gaps after that. Middleton doesn't really have big drop offs. For example, Elias was a top 10 scorer three times, but two of them are in really weak years (2004, 2012) for forwards.
     
  15. MaxV

    MaxV Registered User

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    I agree that there are Czech/Slovak players from that era that deserve it.

    Problem is that there weren’t anywhere near as many memorable moments for North Americans involving the Czechs as there were with the Soviets.

    Even the 1980 OG. While it was a terrible loss, in a weird way, it actually turned into a positive for those players. Because that game is so remembered in NA, they also remember how great that USSR team was. There was already a documentary about them on ESPN. I don’t think that would be the case had USSR won.

    And certainly Canada has PLENTY to remember from their rivalry with the Soviets.

    Not many moments like that with the Czechs. Most people don’t even remember that Team Canada actually played 3 European teams around the time of the Summit Series, including the Czechs.
     
  16. frisco

    frisco Some people say that there's a woman to blame...

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    I'm just not seeing Elias as a HOFer. Four 30-goal seasons (never over 40 goals), highest Hart ranking is 6th, one post-season AS nod. Similar to Alfredsson who I don't think is a great candidate or Daniel Sedin without the signature year. I shouldn't say no to these guys as HOFers but more like there's 15 or so guys I'd like to see in before them.

    As far as Middleton, adjusted for era, his total points rank him 174th all-time. I really like Tricky Rick but just not enough there for a HOF career (peak or longevity). As a point of comparison, Bernie Federko, sort a derided HOF pick, has a body of work that matches up to Middleton timewise and he's 112th in adjusted points.

    My Best-Carey
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2018
  17. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    Mind naming some?
     
  18. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

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    Elias probably has the most nuanced and best overall case of the 6 but I doubt he ever gets in without a ticket.
     
  19. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

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    Middleton was on his way to a great rookie season but broke his leg and ended up with a 47-22-18-40 line and kind of stagnated the next 2 years before finally taking off with 60 and 86 points in years 4 and 5.

    Injuries also affected him a bit later on in his career.

    He was certainly better than at least 3 HHOF wingers that played in the mid 70's in Barber, Gillies and Shutt IMO.
     
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  20. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    I've said it before about Middleton, if there was ever a player that needed a Cup to cement his status in the HHOF it's him. I honestly think that's all it would take is remembering him being part of a team that won (and he'd have been important on those Bruins teams had they won).

    They are going to retire his number in Boston next week. Sometimes that triggers the committee to give him another look. Don Cherry promoted him on Coach's Corner tonight, if that helps. Rogie Vachon got his number retired in L.A. and was inducted shortly after. Are you hearing this Pittsburgh for Barrasso? It seems to work. I think it sort of puts a player's stamp on a franchise and makes him associated with one team a little bit more. Like it or not, a player who played his entire or most of his career with one team gets more love. Maybe this is partially why Gilmour and Oates had to wait so long to get in. I don't know why else.
     
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  21. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

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    It would be nice to have some transparency and a public ballot like they now have for post season awards.

    I think it would help Nifty.
     
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  22. Vanzig

    Vanzig Registered User

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    Your last paragraph is BANG on, Middleton had more Skill and was a Better Player than his fellow Decade Players such as (BARBER, SHUTT, GILLIES) but it’s because those guy’s played on CUP Winning Team’s!!!

    Can You imagine RIKCY MIDDLETON on the 1970’s HABS or the Late 1970’s/1980’s ISLANDERS (LOL, wow). I mean setting 4 NHL Playoff Records in 1983 with Barry Peterson is 1 thing but put him with TROTTIER and it could have been even better. (Peterson & Nifty did have great chemistry though)
     
  23. frisco

    frisco Some people say that there's a woman to blame...

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    Some of these guys are obvious but (not in order): Jagr, Iginla, Mogilny, Roenick, Richard Martin, Datsyuk, Turgeon, Hossa, Roenick, Nicholls, Zetterberg, Doug Wilson, Zubov, Talbot, Barrasso, Joseph.

    My Best-Carey
     
  24. frisco

    frisco Some people say that there's a woman to blame...

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    That's probably true and you could add McDonald here, also.

    My Best-Carey
     
  25. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

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    Agreed, but I don't think that he will make it in.
     

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