HHOF 2019

Kevs Security

inmateMack/CanesMack/LeafMack/elMacko
May 28, 2018
1,783
2,188
Toronto, Canada
actually, a hot take: what really separates elias from zetterberg?

i haven't thought about this for more than a second so i'm throwing it out there completely undigested
I think Zetterberg's better than Elias too although they are comparable. Both solid offensive players, good on the defensive side too (Zetterberg probably better or am I wrong? actually surprised he has no selkes on his belt) and top notch playoff performers. In that regard I think Z takes the cake with his Conn Smythe run which was one of the most dominant of the decade. I'd actually rate his CS just below Malkin's.
 

Michael Farkas

Grace Personified
Jun 28, 2006
13,350
7,830
NYC
www.HockeyProspect.com
Zetterberg's Selke's were probably stolen in some small part by Datsyuk...Datsyuk was a better NZ pickpocket, but Zetterberg was the better player in the defensive zone...just not as noticeable...Datsyuk had more "flashy" defensive plays (if you will) so he got the attention...
 

frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Sep 14, 2017
3,553
2,643
Northern Hemisphere
I'd say no first year eligible NHLers should go. I'd pick (in order):

Barrasso (way better credentials than Joseph).
Roenick
Turgeon
Mogilny

Bit of a Sabre bias...

My Best-Carey
 
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frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Sep 14, 2017
3,553
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Northern Hemisphere
is it crazy to suggest that the best sabre outside the hall might be craig ramsay?
No. He doesn't have a real chance in getting in I don't think, though. May have been as good as Gainey but without the Stanley Cup rings and as many Selke's it is hard to see anyone taking up the cause. THN awarding him at least two "retro" Selke's in their last issue which was interesting.

My Best-Carey
 

scott clam

Registered User
Sep 12, 2018
1,108
532
In a year with no real obvious candidates this may be a year to consider Butch Goring or John Tonnelli.
 

GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Jul 21, 2017
9,712
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Brampton, ON
I'd say Zetterberg is better than Elias but not by a big margin. There are certainly players from previous eras that were of Elias' calibre or worse that are Hall of Famers. I think he'll be inducted eventually. From 2000-2003 he was the best forward on a team that won two Cups and was one of the best teams in the League during that period. Other than Jagr, has there been a better Czech winger in the NHL? How many wingers (or even players) who started their careers during or after the dead puck era have more than 1000 career points?

Guys like Anderson and Nieuwendyk made it in because of their career totals and contributions to Cup winners. Elias's numbers, all-around game and the fact that he was an important contributor to a Devils team that had a lot of success in the 2000s will get him in.

Points in the playoffs (2001-2005):

NHL.com - Stats

Elias ranks third, well ahead of Hejduk who's in fourth place.
 

scott clam

Registered User
Sep 12, 2018
1,108
532
For what?
For being major players in a dynasty. Goring is probably the more deserving of the two, and is typically seen as the "last piece of the puzzle". I figure if they want to start including some more questionable candidates, a guy whos been waiting for 30 years is a good place to start.
 

BillNy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
477
198
I think Zetterberg's better than Elias too although they are comparable. Both solid offensive players, good on the defensive side too (Zetterberg probably better or am I wrong? actually surprised he has no selkes on his belt) and top notch playoff performers. In that regard I think Z takes the cake with his Conn Smythe run which was one of the most dominant of the decade. I'd actually rate his CS just below Malkin's.

It's interesting, but I think a lot of the time, for awards, current and all-time rankings, and the Hall of Fame, we value defensive play more from guys who don't score. A lot of people are iffy on Bergeron's Hall of Fame case, but I genuinely think there have been periods where the only centers on Earth better than him were Crosby and Malkin. Elias and Zetterberg are similar. We don't have any Corsi numbers from before Elias turned 31, but what we have are absurdly good, and considering they were at that age, you look at this guy who had several point per game seasons, even in years the Devils weren't scoring, and ended his career as a better than .8 point/game player with extremely good defense. We focus on point-per-game, but his pts/game rate is 68 points per 82 games. At what point in Elias' career is a 68 point player with great defense not an elite player? He also never got into that 20 minutes/game rate, and there were several years the Devils had a miserable powerplay, and he was putting up a lot of even strength points. I think Elias and Zetterberg will struggle to get him, but I always thought they were better than guys with slightly higher point totals at the time who probably won't, like Ryan Getzlaf or Brendan Shanahan (not a perfect comparison - Getzlaf feels a little young to comp to Zetterberg, Shanahan a little old for Elias).

If I'm picking the class next year, the players I pick are probably Sergei Zubov, Alexander Mogilny, Patrik Elias, and Daniel Alfredsson. It's a weak first-year class, but I think there's a mild buildup of guys who played for less heralded teams, guys who were high scoring defensemen or strong defensive forwards, and well, I do think there's a *mild* bias against European players, or if not a bias against Europeans, I think making Team Canada a lot gives you a bump that they're not eligible for (granted, that wouldn't explain Theoren Fleury).

As for Turgeon, I'm really unsure what I think about him, but I almost think it's not worth discussing because he's never getting in. After that World Junior tournament, the sort of people who vote on these things just won't ever take him seriously. It's not fair, but it's the way it is.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,667
16,392
Nah, no reason to compound problems by adding more questionable (or in this case, less-than-questionable) guys because other questionable guys made it...I'll pass. I'm also not in charge.

Yeah, that sounds like "Daniel Alfredsson isn't exactly a slam dunk so let's get in even least deserving players instead".

Had they said Claude Provost or Craig Ramsay, my answer would've been different.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,667
16,392
If I'm picking the class next year, the players I pick are probably Sergei Zubov, Alexander Mogilny, Patrik Elias, and Daniel Alfredsson. It's a weak first-year class, but I think there's a mild buildup of guys who played for less heralded teams, guys who were high scoring defensemen or strong defensive forwards, and well, I do think there's a *mild* bias against European players, or if not a bias against Europeans, I think making Team Canada a lot gives you a bump that they're not eligible for (granted, that wouldn't explain Theoren Fleury).

The issue I have with these choices is that three of them would be worse picks than Theoren Fleury if we're sticking to their hockey career, and strictly to their hockey careers.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,604
28,841
For being major players in a dynasty. Goring is probably the more deserving of the two, and is typically seen as the "last piece of the puzzle". I figure if they want to start including some more questionable candidates, a guy whos been waiting for 30 years is a good place to start.
He's already been rewarded by being a "major player on a dynasty" by having four very nice and expensive rings. He doesn't deserve another.
 

BillNy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
477
198
The issue I have with these choices is that three of them would be worse picks than Theoren Fleury if we're sticking to their hockey career, and strictly to their hockey careers.

I think Fleury should be in, and I'm not sure any of them are not better than Fleury, besides maybe Alfredsson.
 
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GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Jul 21, 2017
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Brampton, ON
Lemieux and Goring shouldn't get in. Brad Richards (another former Smythe winner) is better than both and he's a Hall of Very Good player himself (and if you've read and paid attention to my posts, you may know that I'm a fan of his).
 

trentmccleary

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Mar 2, 2002
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I'll ground my choices somewhat in the table below:

Gonchar, Alfredsson, Barrasso, Zubov


Most career points per draft period (undrafted players slotted into rough 5 year eligibility period. HHOF'ers in Bold)
Scorers71-7576-8081-8586-9091-9596-00
11*Dionne1*Gretzky1*Francis1*Jagr1*Iginla1*Thornton
22*Trottier2*Messier2*Yzerman2*Sakic2*Alfredsson2*Marleau
33*Lafleur3*Kurri3*Lemieux3*Recchi3*Whitney3*Hossa
44*Stastny4*Savard4*Oates4*Selanne4*St. Louis4*H.Sedin
55*D.Taylor5*Gartner5*Gilmour5*Modano5*Kovalev5*D.Sedin
66*McDonald6*Nicholls6*Hawerchuk6*Shanahan6*Elias6*Zetterberg
77*Middleton7*Ciccarelli7*Robitaille7*Sundin7*Kariya7*Lecavalier
88*Barber8*Goulet8*Hull8*Turgeon8*Doan8*B.Richards
99*Maruk9*Federko9*Andreychuk9*Roenick9*Arnott9*Datsyuk
1010*Lysiak10*Bossy10*Nieuwendyk10*Damphousse10*Forsberg10*Tanguay
1111*Larouche11*Anderson11*Verbeek11*Brind'Amour11*Naslund11*Gaborik
1212*Shutt12*Mullen12*Bellows12*Fedorov12*Lindros12*Ribiero
D-ScorersDDDDDD
11*Potvin1*Bourque1*MacInnis1*Lidstrom1*Gonchar1*Chara
22*Robinson2*Coffey2*Housley2*Leetch2*Niedermayer2*Boyle
33*Salming3*Murphy3*Chelios3*Blake3*Pronger3*Markov
44*Howe4*Wilson4*Stevens4*Zubov4*Hamrlik4*Kaberle
55*Greschner5*Babych5*Suter5*Schneider5*Timonen5*Rafalski
66*B.Murray6*R.Larson6*Duchense6*Numminen6*Ozolinsh6*Campbell
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,131
Regina, SK
No. He doesn't have a real chance in getting in I don't think, though. May have been as good as Gainey but without the Stanley Cup rings and as many Selke's it is hard to see anyone taking up the cause. THN awarding him at least two "retro" Selke's in their last issue which was interesting.

My Best-Carey

Thanks for reading!
 
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Vanzig

Registered User
Aug 6, 2018
113
46
Vancouver, B.C.
I would like to see some Players who have been waiting a bit so they don’t get left behind, the Millenial players can wait.
History shows what can happen when a guy gets overlooked or falls thru the cracks. (My Top 10 In No Order)...
——————————————————————————-
(1) JC TREMBLAY
(2) RICHARD MARTIN
(3) RICKY “Nifty” MIDDLETON
(4) DOUG WILSON
(5) TOM BARRASSO
(6) STEVE LARMER
(7) MIKE VERNON
(8) THEO FLEURY
(9) ALEX MOGILNY
(10) JEREMY ROENICK

Then AFTER those guys get in “Maybe” they can Add,

(11) VLADAMIR KRUTOV
(12) BRIAN PROPP
(13) LORNE CHABOT
(14) SERGEI ZUBOV
(15) CURTIS JOSEPH
(16) KEITH TKACHUCK
(17) JOHN VANBIESBROUCK
(18) PIERRE TURGEON
(19) PETER BONDRA
(20) ANDY MOOG
 
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frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Sep 14, 2017
3,553
2,643
Northern Hemisphere
I would like to see some Players who have been waiting a bit so they don’t get left behind, the Millenial players can wait.
History shows what can happen when a guy gets overlooked or falls thru the cracks. (My Top 10 In No Order)...
——————————————————————————-
(2) RICHARD MARTIN
I'd about given up on Martin. His best case maybe focused on Cam Neely. More goals/game (11th all-time) and points/game than Neely in practically the same length career (both cut short by injury) in a lower scoring era. Neely has four 2nd team AS nods while Martin has two 1st teams and two 2nd teams in the AS category. Martin made the 1972 Summit team as a rook and also the 1976 Canada Cup squad-his only two chances for best-on-best international competition.

My Best-Carey
 
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Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
8,587
3,597
I would like to see some Players who have been waiting a bit so they don’t get left behind, the Millenial players can wait.
History shows what can happen when a guy gets overlooked or falls thru the cracks. (My Top 10 In No Order)...
——————————————————————————-
(1) JC TREMBLAY
(2) RICHARD MARTIN
(3) RICKY “Nifty” MIDDLETON
(4) DOUG WILSON
(5) TOM BARRASSO
(6) STEVE LARMER
(7) MIKE VERNON
(8) THEO FLEURY
(9) ALEX MOGILNY
(10) JEREMY ROENICK

Then AFTER those guys get in “Maybe” they can Add,

(11) VLADAMIR KRUTOV
(12) BRIAN PROPP
(13) LORNE CHABOT
(14) SERGEI ZUBOV
(15) CURTIS JOSEPH
(16) KEITH TKACHUCK
(17) JOHN VANBIESBROUCK
(18) PIERRE TURGEON
(19) PETER BONDRA
(20) ANDY MOOG

Roenick had 513 goals and 1216 points in 1363 games

Turgeon had 515 goals and 1327 points in 1294 games


Larmer and Propp are a wash

I think most would put Joseph and Vanbiesbrouck above Vernon


There just doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to your list
 
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Vanzig

Registered User
Aug 6, 2018
113
46
Vancouver, B.C.
I'd about given up on Martin. His best case maybe focused on Cam Neely. More goals/game (11th all-time) and points/game than Neely in practically the same length career (both cut short by injury) in a lower scoring era. Neely has four 2nd team AS nods while Martin has two 1st teams and two 2nd teams in the AS category. Martin made the 1972 Summit team as a rook and also the 1976 Canada Cup squad-his only two chances for best-on-best international competition.

My Best-Carey

Thats exactly what I mean, People will say “Oh he didn’t play enough games” or this player didn’t win any major awards yet MARTIN played more games than a ton of players in the HOF and has 4 (1st/2nd team all star) selections.

But Yes TREMBLAY/MARTIN I believe the ship has sailed sadly!!!
MIDDLETON is a No Brainer though.
 

Vanzig

Registered User
Aug 6, 2018
113
46
Vancouver, B.C.
Roenick had 513 goals and 1216 points in 1363 games

Turgeon had 515 goals and 1327 points in 1294 games


Larmer and Propp are a wash

I think most would put Joseph and Vanbiesbrouck above Vernon


There just doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to your list


STEVE LARMER was Not exactly a “WASH”. Just as Good/Better Stat’s than 75% of the HOF’amers currently inducted but it’s more a popularity/politics that get in the way of inducting certain players (HELLO THEO FLEURY) in the HOF nowadays.

HOF can induct players from 1900-1960’s & because they are from the “GOOD ‘OL” Boys Golden Era questionable players got elected with a pass cuz they were either on CUP Winning Teams (Only 6 Teams which are GREAT Odd’s) & the Comittee keep’s those Era’s sacred. It’s weird because Expansion came in 1970’s & there were 2 PRO LEAGUE’s in the 1970’s (WHA & NHL) which watered down the talent pool in the sport (ORR/LAFLEUR/ESPO’s era) of hockey quite considerably yet players from THAT era are still held in high regard. 1980’s took the Best Players out their Rival Pro League competitors in 1979 & Merged the two which made for an exciting “Run & Gun” Speed, HITS, FIGHTS, GOALS etc yet a lot of players from the 1980s era get GYPED/Overlloked completely because scoring was up (Yes scoring was up, but so was everything else, Geez there is 31 Teams Now).21 TEAMS was near perfect, You had Europeans in the league (Which the good Old Origional 6 DIDN'T), You had ONLY 1 Pro Hockey League, You could HIT/FIGHT without getting a penalty (compared to nowadays or it’s a Power-play or Suspension).

Hockey from 1979-1996 was great for ALL fans, SAVES, GOALS, HITS, FIGHTS etc, How many Hits/Fights do you see today??People will say “OH don’t put this guy in HOF cuz he didn’t win any “Awards/Stanley Cup/Gold Medal/High Numbers Etc”
YET if a player from 2000-present does “2 out of the 4” alot of people are like YEAH put em in.
——————————————————————
STEVE LARMER
- 400+ Goals/1000+ Points in 1000+ Games (Point A Game)
- Iron Man Streak Most Games Played by a Player on 1 team (884)
- Calder Trophy (Rookie of the Year)
- GOLD MEDAL (With Team Canada 1991)
- STANLEY CUP (1994 NY Rangers)
- 2 Way Player Blocked Shots/Hit Etc
——————————————————————
Played a 2 way game, Won in Playoffs/International play Winning Gold on TOP LINE with #99 in the Tournament facing the Best of the Best Leading Team Canada in Goals, Scoring SHORTHANDED Game Winning Goal to WIN the 1991 (WORLD/Canada CUP). I see some players getting inducted into the HOF who have done a lot less than LARMER yet because we are in the “NEW” era of HD TV & space age equipment etc they try 2 find something and anything to put a guy down from that era. Let’s see the bitching about a 31 team league (10 MORE Teams than the 21 in 1980s).

I have 450+ Hockey Games 1950’s - Present & by watching the actual Games rather than just read a BOXSCORE its hard to read how a Player actually played & how good he was. If you haven’t watched a guy play (I watch my Classic Games a few times a week) so you can study/watch/be an unbiased Hockey FAN (which some cannot do due to a team that they are loyal too) & enjoy the best game on earth IMO. Only 2 or 3 players today could DO what “RICKY MIDDLETON” could do, Instead of talking about it, Let’s SEE the Action & PROVE IT. Middleton scored Amazing Goals & I’m glad he’s getting his NUMBER RETIRED by Boston Bruins.

THEO FLEURY had drug/gambling/booze problem, Big deal, he dealt with heavy stuff but he PROVED IT on the Ice @ every level. I’m not attacking anyone or you I’m just saying check out and watch the history/certain players rather than type a Player’s Name in “Hockey Reference” and “ADJUST” things, I mean if people are gonna ADJUST the 1980s then why are they not ADJUSTING the current league with a bloated Gary Bettman 31 team league?
My personal opinion is the NHL should have Stopped expanding @ 24 Teams (12 in East, 12 in West). Cheers
 
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