HHOF 2019

[Vanzig]

I mean, the standards aren't what people want them to be, but with all the players in there that are in, you don't think any of Turgeon, Roenick and Alfredsson should get in?

Hey man, sorry if I didn’t post it but I didn’t put ALFREDDSON on the list cuZ I think he will get in 100%, and I did put ROENICK on the list too bro if u go back and look. I was putting in guys I think should have a shot at getting in and deserve it, I left out SERGEI ZUBOV who is also really UNDERRATED.

 

[crobro]

Forgot Bernie Nichols and his 1300 points

 

[Vanzig]

It's not a bad list... I'd support eleven of those - Tremblay, Wilson, Middleton, Propp, Larmer, Barrasso, Fleury, Roenick, Joseph, Turgeon, tkachuk.

less so, Martin, Krutov, Smith, Mogilny.

absolutely not, Vernon, Bondra, Kerr, Leach, MacLeish, Moog, Bellows, Verbeek.

Like.... why Bellows? Cause he had 1000 career points? He managed to do that despite placing in the top-30 in scoring just once.

Hey 70’sLord, I hear what yer saying about BELLOWS, that’s why i put him in the 2ns their of guys that i think should maybe have a chance at get nominated to get in, I have followed the board a lot and I agree with a lot of your opinions, sometimes we might not agree but for you to agree on 11 of those players is pretty rad. At least you understand and are not biased on who should get in. That’s the thing, MOST people will want players who are on the team they love rather than think of guys who had skill/points/talent ya know. IF I’m a LEAF fan. Do u think I would want a SUNDIN/GILMOUR in the Hockey Hall of Fame instead of say a “LECLAIR, DAMPHOUSSE” lol, u know what i mean. Most Hockey Fans will choose Players they love/like and/or players that are on the team they cheer for rather than those of their opponents.

Now I can see how RICHARD MARTIN some will say NO too but NEELY played around the same amount of games, that’s why I think his 4 1st/2nd team all star selections in 7 full seasons is remarkable.

How about this, IF Brian Propp had a better/cooler sounding name and didn’t play in the 1980s he would be a God, Because of his 2 WAY PLAY (defensively/offensively) he was more suited for a 1950’s/2000 type era. He excelled at ALL 3 Levels of Hockey (JUNIOR, NHL, INTERNATIONAL), Check Out These STATS/NUMBERS Bro? Talk About Underrated!!!
——————————————————————
*BRIAN PROPP

(WHL/Junior)
Owns (11) WHL Records & was a Junior sensation Winning (9) of their Top Trophies Including MVP & was Named to the
20th Century All Time All Star Team along with (PARENT, ORR, POTVIN, LAFLEUR, LEMIEUX).
- WHL Stats (Games Played 213) - “219 - 292 - 511”

(INTERNATIONAL Career)
“GOLD MEDAL” @ (1987 WORLD/Canada CUP)
“GOLD MEDAL” in 1992 with Team Canada
“BRONZE MEDAL” in 1982 World Championships
“BRONZE MEDAL” in 1983 World Championships
- (Games Played 37) - “14 - 9 - 23”

(NHL)
(Games Played 1016) - “425 - 579 - 1004”
Holds 6 NHL Playoff Records,
Holds 20 NHL CLUB Team NHL Records,
- The Highest Scoring Left Winger in NHL PLAYOFF History Passing BOBBY HULL in 1991 Playoffs with a GOAL against DOMINK HASEK during the North Stars Cinderella Playoff Run to the Stanley Cup Finals.
- Playoff Stats (GP 160) - “64 - 84 - 148”

NHL Career was marked by a Cheap Shot Hit which resulted in a Major CONCUSSION by Chris Chelios in the 1989 PLAYOFFS in which BRIAN PROPP after 14 Games in the Post-Season was Leading ALL Scorers with 14-6-20 after 15 Games. PROPP was NEVER the same Player after the Chjeap-Shot by Chelios and played parts of 5 Seasons after the Injury!!!
Propp still Managed almost a POINT A GAME in the NHL Regular Season and the NHL Playoffs in his Career and had to RETIRE Early at Age 35.
Propp’s “plus/minus is in the TOP 25 All Time with an incredible +300 rating.

NHL PLAYOFFS is Hockey @ it’s HIGHEST Level of play right so PROPP and Underrated 2-Way Player is #1 All Time and has excelled at ALL 3 Levels of play (JUNIOR/NHL/INTERNATIONAL)
————————————————————

 

[Neutrinos]

Forgot Bernie Nichols and his 1300 points

1209 points in 1127 games

 

[Hot Water Bottle]

Here's the thing: When you write down your life story in print, for posterity, knowing that everybody whose path you crossed in the game over decades are going to read it, you have two choices of how to be honest:
1) Tell the hard truth, but be gracious about those who helped you along the way and don't overdo it with the insults
2) Tell the hard truth, and throw nearly everybody you played with and for under the bus

Fleury chose (2). Of course, he deserves credit for his efforts in raising awareness of sexual abuse, but writing things in his book like he failed drug tests 13 times in a row with the Rangers but the NHL didn't want to suspend him because he was a star (Grant Fuhr might disagree) isn't going to sit well with the Hall of Fame committee, nor should it. Fleury also wrote about how people like Pierre Page and Terry Crisp were idiots -- the line of names he insulted in his book is endless.

I don't have any problem with this. "Choice 2" makes for a MUCH more honest & interesting book.

Does the world really need another sports book that's carefully ghostwritten not to offend anyone (and nobody would read)?

 

[GlitchMarner]

Hey 70’sLord, I hear what yer saying about BELLOWS, that’s why i put him in the 2ns their of guys that i think should maybe have a chance at get nominated to get in, I have followed the board a lot and I agree with a lot of your opinions, sometimes we might not agree but for you to agree on 11 of those players is pretty rad. At least you understand and are not biased on who should get in. That’s the thing, MOST people will want players who are on the team they love rather than think of guys who had skill/points/talent ya know. IF I’m a LEAF fan. Do u think I would want a SUNDIN/GILMOUR in the Hockey Hall of Fame instead of say a “LECLAIR, DAMPHOUSSE” lol, u know what i mean. Most Hockey Fans will choose Players they love/like and/or players that are on the team they cheer for rather than those of their opponents.

Some of Bellows' point totals look really nice in a modern context, but in the context of his era his production isn't anything amazing.


Bellows:

1983: 65 points as a rookie but only 76th in NHL scoring.

1984: 83 points and 32nd in scoring.

1986: 79 points and 33rd in NHL scoring.

1988: 81 points and 32nd in scoring.

1990: 99 points. 14th in scoring. This is his best NHL season. If he had had more seasons like this, he might have a real shot at the HHOF.

1991: 75 points and 33rd in scoring.

1992: 75 points and 45th in scoring.

1993: 88 points and tied for 33rd in scoring.

1994: 71 points and 55th in scoring.

He falls off after the 1994 season.

He was basically a winger who had a number of seasons where he was a legitimate first line scorer and one season where he got into the top 15 in League scoring. He's a similar player to a guy like Justin Williams (he has a higher regular season peak, but Williams has a Conn Smythe).

 

[Nick Hansen]

It needs to be said that Bellows had some pretty damn fine playoff numbers, though. The difference between him and Lanny McDonald (it's underrated how bad of an inductee he is) isn't particularly large. Not to mention Middleton who was better than both...

We're debating Zetterberg and Alfredsson - I don't see how the Stache was any better than them.

 

[Vanzig]

It needs to be said that Bellows had some pretty damn fine playoff numbers, though. The difference between him and Lanny McDonald (it's underrated how bad of an inductee he is) isn't particularly large. Not to mention Middleton who was better than both...

We're debating Zetterberg and Alfredsson - I don't see how the Stache was any better than them.

MIDDLETON was Better than BOTH Lanny and Bellows, It’s sad that a Player who is #2 ALL TIME in Shooting % (Behind Mike Bossy) among Players with 400+ Goals and NIFTY was 1 of THE BEST 1 on 1 players/Danglers in his time bar none, Averaged nearly a Point-A-Game before CONCUSSIONS took him out. The HOF needs to wake the Frig Up, at least BRUINS are Retiring hid number, I mean LANYY started a season before MIDDLETON and ended a Year after so they played in EXACTLY the same era, the only thing is LANNY won a cup, otherwise MIDDLETONS numbers are superior and he was all around a better player.

 

[GlitchMarner]

I'm not sure I've seen anyone here actually try to argue that McDonald was better or somehow more deserving of being inducted into the Hall than Middleton.

The 1980s decade isn't a great period for wingers as it is. Out of the ones that do stand out (aside from the obvious like Bossy, Kurri, Goulet and Robitaille), Gartner (whose induction I don't mind personally) got in because of longevity and consistency, Andreychuk made it because he collected enough points and goals over his career, Ciccarelli was basically a richer man's Andreychuk, Anderson and Gilles won a bunch of Cups on stacked teams and Mullen and McDonald were inducted randomly (well, really, Mullen was inducted because he was American and McDonald just seems like the poster boy for a "likable" or appealing candidate). "Meh" is basically how I'd describe this group of wingers aside from Bossy, Kurri, Goulet and Robitaille. If they had chosen Middleton, Propp and Larmer instead of Mullen, McDonald and Gillies, would those really have been worse selections?

When you start getting into Bellows, Verbeek, Hunter and Taylor (all 1000+ point scorers), aren't there tons of dead puck era (a better era for wingers and a worse era for centres than the 80s and 90s part of the live puck era) that are on the level of these guys or better? Aren't Elias, Tkachuk, Hossa, Alfredsson, Fleury, Palffy, Mogilny, Naslund and LeClair at least a full tier better than Bellows, Verbeek, Hunter and Taylor? Isn't Kovalev at least as good as any of these 80s players? What about Nolan? Bondra? Whitney? Amonte? Hejduk? I just don't see the point to inducting a Bellows or a Verbeek.

Middleton, Larmer and Propp are worth entertaining, though.

 

[GlitchMarner]

It needs to be said that Bellows had some pretty damn fine playoff numbers, though. The difference between him and Lanny McDonald (it's underrated how bad of an inductee he is) isn't particularly large. Not to mention Middleton who was better than both...

We're debating Zetterberg and Alfredsson - I don't see how the Stache was any better than them.

Lanny is somewhat overrated in general, but he has a handful of top 15 scoring finishes.


McDonald:

1983: 98 points - 12th in scoring
1976: 93 points - 14th in scoring
1977: 90 points - 8th in scoring
1978: 87 points - 10th in scoring
1979: 85 points - 15th in scoring


Here's how his best seasons compare to Bellows' in terms of adjusted points...


McDonald:

81
81
79
78
72


Bellows:

83
71
67
67
66

Four top ten goal scoring finishes for Lanny. One for Bellows.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

When you start getting into Bellows, Verbeek, Hunter and Taylor (all 1000+ point scorers), aren't there tons of dead puck era (a better era for wingers and a worse era for centres than the 80s and 90s part of the live puck era) that are on the level of these guys or better? Aren't Elias, Tkachuk, Hossa, Alfredsson, Fleury, Palffy, Mogilny, Naslund and LeClair at least a full tier better than Bellows, Verbeek, Hunter and Taylor? Isn't Kovalev at least as good as any of these 80s players? What about Nolan? Bondra? Whitney? Amonte? Hejduk? I just don't see the point to inducting a Bellows or a Verbeek.

bellows equaled naslund's best two playoffs before he turned 20.

Season	Age	GP	G	A	PTS
1982-83	18	9	5	4	9
1983-84	19	16	2	12	14
Career		143	51	71	122

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]

Season	Age	GP	G	A	PTS
2002-03	29	14	5	9	14
2003-04	30	7	2	7	9
Career		52	14	22	36

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TFOOT] [/TFOOT]

not that i would ride for bellows in the HHOF of course.

 

[BillNy]

I feel strongly that Daniel Alfredsson, Sergei Zubov, and Patrik Elias should get in. Would be fine with Rod Brind'Amour, Alexander Mogilny, Curtis Joseph, J.C. Tremblay, Theoren Fleury, and maybe Keith Tkachuk/Jeremy Roenick, but eh.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

re: lanny, important to note that when he retired he was 14th all-time in goals, 23rd all-time in points. by the time he was inducted, he had already fallen to 17th in goals, 35th in points.

that's why comparing career points totals across generations, even between 80s and 90s players, is fairly meaningless. take brian propp and vincent damphousse. basically the same player, all told. except damphousse finished with 1,205 points in 1,378 games and propp had 1,004 in 1,016.

i've advocated in the past for relativizing longevity to a player's own generation, to adjust for the variance between your 15 season bobby smith or brian propp career that just squeaks over 1,000 games and your twenty season brind'amour or roenick career.

(otoh, nifty was 20th all-time in goals, himself 23rd all-time in points when he retired and it didn't help him any with the HHOF.)

 

[BillNy]

re: lanny, important to note that when he retired he was 14th all-time in goals, 23rd all-time in points. by the time he was inducted, he had already fallen to 17th in goals, 35th in points.

that's why comparing career points totals across generations, even between 80s and 90s players, is fairly meaningless. take brian propp and vincent damphousse. basically the same player, all told. except damphousse finished with 1,205 points in 1,378 games and propp had 1,004 in 1,016.

i've advocated in the past for relativizing longevity to a player's own generation, to adjust for the variance between your 15 season bobby smith or brian propp career that just squeaks over 1,000 games and your twenty season brind'amour or roenick career.

(otoh, nifty was 20th all-time in goals, himself 23rd all-time in points when he retired and it didn't help him any with the HHOF.)

Brind'Amour largely wouldn't be getting in for offence, fwiw.

 

[Epsilon]

The next half-dozen selections could be non-NHL Europeans- and it would raise, rather than lower, the standard for the Hall.
If we start down that road, I don't know if we get anywhere worth travelling...

Rare is the list of greatest baseball players that doesn't have Willie Mays at least in the top six. [Bill James puts him at three.] So, if the hockey-equivalent of Willie Mays is designated the median standard {and I'm thinking that someone like Bobby Hull or Maurice Richard might approximate a 'Willie Mays' standard, though this is probably selling the "Say-Hey-Kid" short} you'd have an HoF with a population of around twenty... and you'd be averaging an induction every five years or so.

If you had an "Andy Bathgate" standard, you'd at least give yourself a shot at averaging an annual induction, anyway...

I think you missed my point here a bit (and I agree with what you've posted). The "Willy Mays Hall of Fame" is a rhetorical device that's usually employed by people arguing *against* ridiculously high HOF standards, to demonstrate how silly that can become when pushed to its logical extremes. When I say we need a hockey version, I mean in that sense and not that the HHOF should actually be that way.

 

[Giotrapani91]

Would Doug weight be a bad inductee one of the best playmakers of his era was really a great player for Edmonton, won a cup with Carolina, he was a very under appreciated player, very forgotten about as a player by many. Except by islanders fans they don't forget him as the mediocre coach.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Huh? Yes, he would be an outlandish add...not close.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Would Doug weight be a bad inductee one of the best playmakers of his era was really a great player for Edmonton, won a cup with Carolina, he was a very under appreciated player, very forgotten about as a player by many. Except by islanders fans they don't forget him as the mediocre coach.

Yes

 

[MXD]

Would Doug weight be a bad inductee one of the best playmakers of his era was really a great player for Edmonton, won a cup with Carolina, he was a very under appreciated player, very forgotten about as a player by many. Except by islanders fans they don't forget him as the mediocre coach.

I like Doug Weight, and he's probably a bit underrated in the grand scheme of things, mostly as it pertains to his play without the puck, but ...
With Vincent Damphousse not getting in, while having a better case in just every imaginable way, I don't even know why Doug Weight would or should even make it to the "assessment" stage.

 

[VanIslander]

SLAM DUNKS:

1. Wickenheiser (if eligible, the only center this year i expect)

2. Alfredsson (expected since Sundin's induction; longtime captain in Ontario won't be underappreciated)

..... THAT'S IT .....

Several possibilities to be lobbied for. Indeed a Soviet is expected.

1. Mikhailov (long successful career and leadership but way off NHL media radar)
OR
2. Firsov (a glaring possibility now that Big Yak is in)
OR
3. Krutov (the easier sell, given memories vs. NHLers, part of legendary unit)
OR
4. Maltsev (a good case could be made, but probably won't be)

....... AND MAYBE A BLUELINER .....

1. JC Tremblay (has solid NHL accomplishments but WHA years sadly won't be a plus, might be a reason to pan)

2. Wilson (overlooked for a while, is NHL team management so that won't hurt awareness)

3. Suter (Gary won't get in; cheapshot on Kariya, easy to ignore marginal American candidates, just ask JR)

....... WISH BRIAN PROPP WUZ THERE .....

 

[VanIslander]

Looking forward to future year induction of three of the greatest right wingers ever:

Jagr
Iginla
Hossa

Now THAT will be a good year!

 

[MXD]

Pretty much everything Fleury did is what Roy ask any strip bar manager about the legend of Roy in Montreal

Ehhh...
The best stories would be about players who :
- Were not as good as Roy.
and
- Are VERY comfortably in the HHOF regardless.

 

[BillNy]

Yes

I wouldn't vote for him, but there's an argument to be made for a lot of guys where like... guys who peaked in the late 90s/early 2000s lost a good chunk of points to era effects. I think there's a case to be made that a lot of worse players have/will get in because maybe they got to a point per game or were just under or whatever in worse eras. You also have teammates, which he didn't have a ton of in his prime.

To make a comparison, he's 0.06 pts/game below Joe Nieuwendyk. 0.06 points per game is 75 more points in Doug Weights career. If you say "okay, the last mass-scoring year is 1992-93" - for example, Nieuwendyk had 336 more games played at the end of that season. From that point to the cancelled season, Nieuwendyk had 571 points in 710 games, and Weight had 750 points in 783 games. Not a fantastic direct comparison, because Nieuwendyk was also older in that time, so it includes more decline years, but that's a decent chunk. Nieuwendyk was also teammates at various times with Theoren Fleury, Gary Roberts, Doug Gilmour, Lanny McDonald, Joe Mullen, Al MacInnis, Hakan Loob, Brett Hull, Sergei Zubov, Mike Modano, and there's at least one other big scorer from the Stars who I'm blanking on, I'm pretty sure. In his time in Edmonton, Doug Weight had like, Ryan Smyth, Bill Guerin, Jason Arnott, and Janne Niinima? Weight led his team in scoring seven times, often by big margins. Nieuwendyk did it twice, and one of those times, with 69 points, a 10 point lead over Mike Modano, who missed 30 games (Nieuwendyk, in fairness, missed nine).

I don't think Nieuwendyk was a fantastic selection, but he got in without a huge fight about it, and you can honestly argue Doug Weight was the better player. This kinda goes into Bill James' thing about how people thought at the time, knowing the context they were playing in as a natural fact of the game. Neither got a ton of Hart trophy votes. Nieuwendyk got one third, and two fifth place votes. Weight got two seconds, seven thirds, two fourths, and six fifths. Both players did them in single years. Nieuwendyk is listed as sixth in all-star voting one year, but Hockey Reference's awards page has him in sixth with zero votes? If someone could explain what's up there, that'd be cool. Another year he got three seconds, and two thirds, finishing fifth. Weight also only got all-star votes once, finishing third with eight seconds, and ten thirds. Both were selected to four all-star games, both played predominantly in the western conference. Both played until they were 40, both started in their 21 year old seasons (Nieuwendyk played 9 games in his 20 year old season). Again, wouldn't vote for Doug Weight, not at all, but I'm not sure he'd be particularly absurd.

 

[Neutrinos]

What exactly is the argument for Alfredsson over Joseph?

To me, Joseph had the better career

Alfredsson, in my opinion, is in the same tier as Turgeon and Fleury

 

[jghockey]

Here are my picks for the 2019 HHOF:

1) John LeClair
2) Rod Brind'Amour
3) Reggie Leach
4) Mike Richter
5) Patrik Elias
6) Claude Lemieux