HHOF 2019

[ESH]

The next half-dozen selections could be non-NHL Europeans- and it would raise, rather than lower, the standard for the Hall.
If we start down that road, I don't know if we get anywhere worth travelling...

Rare is the list of greatest baseball players that doesn't have Willie Mays at least in the top six. [Bill James puts him at three.] So, if the hockey-equivalent of Willie Mays is designated the median standard {and I'm thinking that someone like Bobby Hull or Maurice Richard might approximate a 'Willie Mays' standard, though this is probably selling the "Say-Hey-Kid" short} you'd have an HoF with a population of around twenty... and you'd be averaging an induction every five years or so.

If you had an "Andy Bathgate" standard, you'd at least give yourself a shot at averaging an annual induction, anyway...

Yeah hahaha that would be a pretty small hall of fame. I’ve heard Willie Mays described as the best all-around baseball player of all-time.

 

[MaxV]

Do voters other Larionov even know who Firsov is?

Even for Larionov, he probably wouldn’t push Firsov first, as he can make a much stronger case to other voters for Mikhailov, Maltsev or Petrov.

 

[Batis]

Do voters other Larionov even know who Firsov is?

Even for Larionov, he probably wouldn’t push Firsov first, as he can make a much stronger case to other voters for Mikhailov, Maltsev or Petrov.

Anders Hedberg was starting his career when Firsov probably was the best player in Europe so Hedberg surely knows rather much about Firsov. Additionally they played against each other at the 1970 WHC. I would guess that Jari Kurri also knows something about Firsov considering that Kurri was between 6 and 11 years of age during Firsovs peak period (66/67-70/71).

With this said I think that you are correct about that it probably would be easier to make the case for Mikhailov, Maltsev or Petrov to most of the other members of the selection committee.

 

[The Panther]

You would literally take away 80%+ of the HHOF's then...

I don't get your point.

There are perhaps several players in the Hall who did bad things in their personal lives, but I can't think of one who disrespected the League, their teammates, and coaches as much as Fleury.

 

[Blackhawk93]

I feel like the NHL should take a page out of MLB’s book. If there’s no worthy inductions that year, nobody gets in.

The hall is becoming so diluted since we caught up to the present in terms of superstars.

 

[streitz]

I don't get your point.

There are perhaps several players in the Hall who did bad things in their personal lives, but I can't think of one who disrespected the League, their teammates, and coaches as much as Fleury.

Dude I hate to break it to you but for the most part these guys aren't role models like the media plays them up to be. They're pro athletes who get whatever they want and have gotten whatever they want their entire lives. Fleury's problems are out in the open because of the Graham James stuff and how quickly he flamed out. Otherwise he's no different then the rest of these guys.


Frankly even though I don't think he should be HHOF on his career he's better then like 30% of players in the hall anyways.

 

[crobro]

I’d like to see Tim Kerr or Rick Martin

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

I don't get your point.

There are perhaps several players in the Hall who did bad things in their personal lives, but I can't think of one who disrespected the League, their teammates, and coaches as much as Fleury.

Fleury was abused and had demons to deal with, what about Patrick Roy? Who did much worse things.

 

[The Panther]

Fleury was abused and had demons to deal with, what about Patrick Roy? Who did much worse things.

I'm aware that lots of players have done bad things (not sure what Roy did, though...?). It's a given when we're talking about wealthy, privileged men in their early-20s. But what I'm talking about is players who diss their teammates, their coaches, the League, etc. Fleury did this a lot -- in interviews and in his book. I don't really like it. Yeah, obviously the people who abused him deserve whatever they get (goes without saying), but there are a lot of people who helped Fleury along the way, too. I would like to see him be more polite and more humble. Maybe it's just me.

 

[DannyGallivan]

The next half-dozen selections could be non-NHL Europeans- and it would raise, rather than lower, the standard for the Hall.

How? We aren't using the same measuring stick when we compare them. Different ice size, weaker European competition... it's still very hard to accurately compare.

 

[crobro]

I'm aware that lots of players have done bad things (not sure what Roy did, though...?). It's a given when we're talking about wealthy, privileged men in their early-20s. But what I'm talking about is players who diss their teammates, their coaches, the League, etc. Fleury did this a lot -- in interviews and in his book. I don't really like it. Yeah, obviously the people who abused him deserve whatever they get (goes without saying), but there are a lot of people who helped Fleury along the way, too. I would like to see him be more polite and more humble. Maybe it's just me.

Pretty much everything Fleury did is what Roy ask any strip bar manager about the legend of Roy in Montreal

 

[Neutrinos]

I'm aware that lots of players have done bad things (not sure what Roy did, though...?). It's a given when we're talking about wealthy, privileged men in their early-20s. But what I'm talking about is players who diss their teammates, their coaches, the League, etc. Fleury did this a lot -- in interviews and in his book. I don't really like it. Yeah, obviously the people who abused him deserve whatever they get (goes without saying), but there are a lot of people who helped Fleury along the way, too. I would like to see him be more polite and more humble. Maybe it's just me.

It's just you

 

[The Panther]

Pretty much everything Fleury did is what Roy ask any strip bar manager about the legend of Roy in Montreal

I mean, who among us hasn't asked Montreal strip bar managers about Patrick Roy?

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

The next half-dozen selections could be non-NHL Europeans- and it would raise, rather than lower, the standard for the Hall.

How?

Glad you asked- especially because (when the fog lifts) I don't think there will be a whole lot separating your viewpoint and mine. This picks up on a point that I made in one of the "top-100" threads. To whit- there are 267 male players in the hockey Hall of Fame. So... if we are to reflect on the (admittedly plastic and sort-of-oxymoronic) concept of an 'average' Hall of Famer, you'd be talking about someone in the 130s on that roster. [What would be that level? Somebody said "Scott Niedermeyer." That doesn't sound too far off. Doug Bentley? All right. Mats Sundin? Somewhere around there.]

So- if you induct a player north of that standard, you've raised the level of the Hall, all told. If you induct a player south of that standard, you've dropped it slightly. That's NOT to say such inductions ought not happen. Every measurable whole has a bottom half.

Now, let's take two names you yourself mentioned: Firsov and Mikhailov. They should be inducted- and immediately. Are they better players than that (kind-of-hypothetical) 'average' Hall-of-Famer? I'd say yes- pretty comfortably so. (You might not agree- but at least we're in agreement they should be in!)

So... if we find two more non-NHL Europeans in addition to those two, who also (IMO) are above the 130s we've continued to raise our standard overall, and can safely induct two more bottom half Euro non-NHLers while improving the strength of the Hall. For the former, may I suggest Vladimir Martinec and Valeri Vasiliev? For the latter, I'd say Jan Suchý and František Pospišíl (While they're still alive? Please??). Well- I think they're better than bottom half guys- but they don't need to be in order for the "net-Hall-strength" to go up.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Glad you asked- especially because (when the fog lifts) I don't think there will be a whole lot separating your viewpoint and mine. This picks up on a point that I made in one of the "top-100" threads. To whit- there are 267 male players in the hockey Hall of Fame. So... if we are to reflect on the (admittedly plastic and sort-of-oxymoronic) concept of an 'average' Hall of Famer, you'd be talking about someone in the 130s on that roster. [What would be that level? Somebody said "Scott Niedermeyer." That doesn't sound too far off. Doug Bentley? All right. Mats Sundin? Somewhere around there.]

So- if you induct a player north of that standard, you've raised the level of the Hall, all told. If you induct a player south of that standard, you've dropped it slightly. That's NOT to say such inductions ought not happen. Every measurable whole has a bottom half.

Now, let's take two names you yourself mentioned: Firsov and Mikhailov. They should be inducted- and immediately. Are they better players than that (kind-of-hypothetical) 'average' Hall-of-Famer? I'd say yes- pretty comfortably so. (You might not agree- but at least we're in agreement they should be in!)

So... if we find two more non-NHL Europeans in addition to those two, who also (IMO) are above the 130s we've continued to raise our standard overall, and can safely induct two more bottom half Euro non-NHLers while improving the strength of the Hall. For the former, may I suggest Vladimir Martinec and Valeri Vasiliev? For the latter, I'd say Jan Suchý and František Pospišíl (While they're still alive? Please??). Well- I think they're better than bottom half guys- but they don't need to be in order for the "net-Hall-strength" to go up.

The only issue I have with this is the "apples vs oranges" measuring stick to decide who gets in the Hall. Quite frankly, I think those Euro players did not have the competition of the NHLers. For the sake of the "Top 120" lists, we can have fun and guess where to put a Mikahilov compared to a Gilbert Perreault, for example.

...then again, we let women in the Hall, so it's not necessarily about the very best. I guess it's about the best among one's field of competition. If so, the Hall is not nearly large enough. Personally, I would like it to simply reflect the best of the best.

 

[Vanzig]

It always rubbed me the wrong way how the HOF will make some guys wait FOREVER (Rogie Vachon) and in some cases wait until the player is even Dead (PAT BURNS etc), The players that have Retired in the past 10 Years should wait so that the Players who have been waiting a long time DONT fall thru the cracks.
Lets get em while they are still ALIVE. I think EVERY Payer I list should be in HOF (My Opinion, But Stats & how they played DON’t lie, some players will have weird names or be underrated (Propp etc)

I have 400+ Games on VHS/DVD & how can people say IF a guy was good or not or should be in HOF or Not if they only read about what’s on paper, U have to see FOOTAGE, Highlites etc)
Anyway Here Goes.

Starting from Late 1960’s to 1990’s

- JC TREMBLAY (5 Cups, 1st/2nd Team All Star Selections)
- RICHARD MARTIN (4 “1st/2nd Team” All Star Selections)
- DOUG WILSON (Norris, Gold with Canada, 8 time All Star)
- RICK MIDDLETON (4 Playoff Records, 2nd Shooting % all time)
- BRIAN PROPP (All Time Playoff Scorer for LW in NHL History, 6 NHL Playoff Records, 20 NHL Club Team Records, 2 GOLD Medals with Team Canada, 2 Way-Player)

- STEVE LARMER (Power Forward, CUP, GOLD, Point a Game)
- TOM BARRASSO (2 Cups, Vezina, W-Jenning, Top 20 W Career)
- MIKE VERNON (2 Cups with 2 different teams, Conn Smythe)
- THEO FLEURY (Stanley Cup, GOLD 3X, Point a Game)
- JEREMY ROENICK (500+G - 700+A -1200+ Pts)
- CURTIS JOSEPH (Top 10 All Time in Wins, GOLD Medal)
- VLADIMIR KRUTOV (Multiple GOLD Medals @ Every Level)
- ALEX MOGILNY (Stanley Cup, 3 Gold Medals, Point A Game)
- PETER BONDRA (500+ Goals, Led NHL In Goals, NHL All Star)
————————————————————————
Possible Maybe’s
- P. TURGEON, T. KERR, R. LEACH, R. MACLEISH, A. MOOG,
B. SMITH, B. BELLOWS, P. VERBEEK, K. TKACHUK.
———————————————————————

Now of course people will say only a FEW of the guys listed will ever make it, I’m cool with that if 4 or 5 of them guys get in, I’d like to see it before I die as well. Some players were and are underrated and it will always hurt their chances but it is what it is. It’s always fun to see EVERYONES LISTS cuz that’s why we are ALL here right!!! Let’s Keep Em Going,

 

[The Macho King]

I'd put in some Soviets/CSSR guys and any women hockey players that have been ignored. Maybe Fleury or CuJo. No other NHL talent is remotely Hall worthy.

 

[GlitchMarner]

I'd put in some Soviets/CSSR guys and any women hockey players that have been ignored. Maybe Fleury or CuJo. No other NHL talent is remotely Hall worthy.

I mean, the standards aren't what people want them to be, but with all the players in there that are in, you don't think any of Turgeon, Roenick and Alfredsson should get in?

 

[The Macho King]

I mean, the standards aren't what people want them to be, but with all the players in there that are in, you don't think any of Turgeon, Roenick and Alfredsson should get in?

I would rather fix the standards than use their erosion as an excuse to let non-HHOF-worthy players in. Between the three of those players we have *one* post-season all-star, and that's a second-team at a shallow position.

 

[Johnny Engine]

I would rather fix the standards than use their erosion as an excuse to let non-HHOF-worthy players in. Between the three of those players we have *one* post-season all-star, and that's a second-team at a shallow position.

In the end, there can be outliers, right? It's entirely possible that, if A-minus is the standard and Mats Sundin is an A-minus, that the HOF committee thinks that Joe Nieuwendyk is an A-minus too. And by extension, if just about everyone else in the hockey world likes the A-minus standard and thinks Nieuwendyk is a B-plus, isn't it better to say Nieuwendyk was a bad call and hope the committee gets back on the horse and inducts some solid-A Soviets, than to start calling for every other B-plus to get the call? It's possible that the guys on committee have decided to get real lenient on their B-plus 90s hockey pals, but it's also possible that they just differ on a few cases from most of us. And they don't get to take their votes back either.
Plus, there are a few odd choices from older eras too. Leo Boivin didn't usher a flood of Bob Bauns and Moose Vaskos and Doug Mohnses into the hall - the committee just decided that Boivin fell on the right side of the line when it came to O6 defensemen.

 

[GlitchMarner]

In the end, there can be outliers, right? It's entirely possible that, if A-minus is the standard and Mats Sundin is an A-minus, that the HOF committee thinks that Joe Nieuwendyk is an A-minus too. And by extension, if just about everyone else in the hockey world likes the A-minus standard and thinks Nieuwendyk is a B-plus, isn't it better to say Nieuwendyk was a bad call and hope the committee gets back on the horse and inducts some solid-A Soviets, than to start calling for every other B-plus to get the call? It's possible that the guys on committee have decided to get real lenient on their B-plus 90s hockey pals, but it's also possible that they just differ on a few cases from most of us. And they don't get to take their votes back either.
Plus, there are a few odd choices from older eras too. Leo Boivin didn't usher a flood of Bob Bauns and Moose Vaskos and Doug Mohnses into the hall - the committee just decided that Boivin fell on the right side of the line when it came to O6 defensemen.

Are Gillies, Housley, Andreychuk, Ciccarelli, Federko and Mullen even B+s?

IMHO, Turgeon, Roenick and Alfredsson are better than all of these players - and that's the problem: there are so many dubious inductees now that every Elias/Alfie/Zetterberg level player looks to have a real case based on precedent.

Even Phil Kessel should have a legit shot (assuming a good finish to his career) if you use Mullen as a comparison

I can see where The Macho Man is coming from, but the damage may have been done by this point.

 

[seventieslord]

It always rubbed me the wrong way how the HOF will make some guys wait FOREVER (Rogie Vachon) and in some cases wait until the player is even Dead (PAT BURNS etc), The players that have Retired in the past 10 Years should wait so that the Players who have been waiting a long time DONT fall thru the cracks.
Lets get em while they are still ALIVE. I think EVERY Payer I list should be in HOF (My Opinion, But Stats & how they played DON’t lie, some players will have weird names or be underrated (Propp etc)

I have 400+ Games on VHS/DVD & how can people say IF a guy was good or not or should be in HOF or Not if they only read about what’s on paper, U have to see FOOTAGE, Highlites etc)
Anyway Here Goes.

Starting from Late 1960’s to 1990’s

- JC TREMBLAY (5 Cups, 1st/2nd Team All Star Selections)
- RICHARD MARTIN (4 “1st/2nd Team” All Star Selections)
- DOUG WILSON (Norris, Gold with Canada, 8 time All Star)
- RICK MIDDLETON (4 Playoff Records, 2nd Shooting % all time)
- BRIAN PROPP (All Time Playoff Scorer for LW in NHL History, 6 NHL Playoff Records, 20 NHL Club Team Records, 2 GOLD Medals with Team Canada, 2 Way-Player)

- STEVE LARMER (Power Forward, CUP, GOLD, Point a Game)
- TOM BARRASSO (2 Cups, Vezina, W-Jenning, Top 20 W Career)
- MIKE VERNON (2 Cups with 2 different teams, Conn Smythe)
- THEO FLEURY (Stanley Cup, GOLD 3X, Point a Game)
- JEREMY ROENICK (500+G - 700+A -1200+ Pts)
- CURTIS JOSEPH (Top 10 All Time in Wins, GOLD Medal)
- VLADIMIR KRUTOV (Multiple GOLD Medals @ Every Level)
- ALEX MOGILNY (Stanley Cup, 3 Gold Medals, Point A Game)
- PETER BONDRA (500+ Goals, Led NHL In Goals, NHL All Star)
————————————————————————
Possible Maybe’s
- P. TURGEON, T. KERR, R. LEACH, R. MACLEISH, A. MOOG,
B. SMITH, B. BELLOWS, P. VERBEEK, K. TKACHUK.
———————————————————————

Now of course people will say only a FEW of the guys listed will ever make it, I’m cool with that if 4 or 5 of them guys get in, I’d like to see it before I die as well. Some players were and are underrated and it will always hurt their chances but it is what it is. It’s always fun to see EVERYONES LISTS cuz that’s why we are ALL here right!!! Let’s Keep Em Going,

It's not a bad list... I'd support eleven of those - Tremblay, Wilson, Middleton, Propp, Larmer, Barrasso, Fleury, Roenick, Joseph, Turgeon, tkachuk.

less so, Martin, Krutov, Smith, Mogilny.

absolutely not, Vernon, Bondra, Kerr, Leach, MacLeish, Moog, Bellows, Verbeek.

Like.... why Bellows? Cause he had 1000 career points? He managed to do that despite placing in the top-30 in scoring just once.

 

[Neutrinos]

Turgeon; 1st overall pick in '87

1327 points in 1294 regular season games (1.03 PPG)
97 points in 109 playoff games (.89 PPG)


Modano; 1st overall pick in '88

1374 points in 1499 regular season games (0.92 PPG)
146 points in 176 playoff games (.83 PPG)


Sundin; 1st overall pick in '89

1349 points in 1346 regular season games (1 PPG)
82 points in 91 playoff games (.9 PPG)

 

[GlitchMarner]

absolutely not, Vernon, Bondra, Kerr, Leach, MacLeish, Moog, Bellows, Verbeek.

Like.... why Bellows? Cause he had 1000 career points? He managed to do that despite placing in the top-30 in scoring just once.

The HHOF induction of Brian Bellows would mark the point where people stop complaining about the inductions of Andreychuk and Housley and start genuinely wondering when Whitney and Amonte will be inducted while others are making arguments that Nolan and Kovalev should get in.

Verbeek and Hunter would be bad as well.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Turgeon; 1st overall pick in '87

1327 points in 1294 regular season games (1.03 PPG)
97 points in 109 playoff games (.89 PPG)


Modano; 1st overall pick in '88

1374 points in 1499 regular season games (0.92 PPG)
146 points in 176 playoff games (.83 PPG)


Sundin; 1st overall pick in '89

1349 points in 1346 regular season games (1 PPG)
82 points in 91 playoff games (.9 PPG)

Yeah, to be honest, Sundin and Modano have the advantages of being prominent hockey players from their countries and franchise icons wile Turgeon was a journeyman Canadian. The Piestany incident hasn't helped Pierre's reputation, either.

I do think Modano and Sundin legitimately had better careers, but I wouldn't be too reluctant put Turgeon in their tier. He is closer to them than he is to Andreychuk or Nieuwendyk.

His per game production is a decent bit better than Modano's, but Modano played more than 200 more NHL games. If you give Turgeon 200 more games, it's likely his production erodes enough that it's not much different than Modano's, and Modano was obviously a more complete player. He also has some playoff runs that stand out while Turgeon really doesn't even though his general playoff production isn't bad.

Turgeon has no professional International career while Sundin was a major player Internationally during his career.

If you equate them to modern centres, Modano is Kopitar, Sundin is Matthews (at this point in his career) and Turgeon is Backstrom. Backstrom doesn't get the attention the other two do.