OT: HFWings Keeper Fantasy Hockey League: Season Two

[Hammettf2b]

Sent you a trade offer @The Zetterberg Era

 

[Bench]

@jprenkert I know you're getting these notifications, you're still logging into HFBoards daily.

If you don't wish to run the team anymore, that's fine, but you need to let us know. No response and I'm going to seek another manager to take over. Ghosting your dynasty team isn't very swag of you.

And ironically, this team was taken over for being ghosted last season. Henceforth it shall be known as the HMS Ghost Ship.

 

[Sparty]

If he doesn't want to play Scheifele and Hellebuyck, I'll gladly trade for them

 

[turkleton85]

i can try to maximize my starts per week as much as possible, i never seem to get to 70 starts in a week...

 

[Bench]

i can try to maximize my starts per week as much as possible, i never seem to get to 70 starts in a week...

Sounds like you need to stop grabbing the guys I'm eying off waivers.

 

[Bench]

Alright folks, we need another manager. Jay's Swag seems to have swagged away.

Spread the word. Maybe one of the mods @Winger98 or @The Zetterberg Era can change the title again.

 

[Sparty]

Can't you wait until after I play the Ghost Ship, lol. That's a good team with an active manager.

 

[Winger98]

Can't you wait until after I play the Ghost Ship, lol. That's a good team with an active manager.

he showed up long enough to autofill his lineup against me yesterday as my roster continues its season long fight to slowly lower its points average.

 

[Hammettf2b]

sent a trade offer to you @Winger98

 

[Bench]

My turn with injuries. Mantha (at least a week) and Bjorkstrand (6 weeks) going to miss extended time.

So I might be more motivated to acquire some depth if anyone is selling.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Sent you a trade offer @The Zetterberg Era

Sorry I didn't get back to you, I did see the offer was pulled. Busy with a lot of family in town for the holidays and my job being crazy in the run in. I don't see a lot of value in trading for picks with how the league is being setup keeper wise though so that swap for a third doesn't mean much for me value wise when it is really an 11th round pick for a 19th.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Sorry I didn't get back to you, I did see the offer was pulled. Busy with a lot of family in town for the holidays and my job being crazy in the run in. I don't see a lot of value in trading for picks with how the league is being setup keeper wise though so that swap for a third doesn't mean much for me value wise when it is really an 11th round pick for a 19th.

If I'm not mistaken @Bench has made it that our keepers can be chosen last so the early picks will mean something this time

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If I'm not mistaken @Bench has made it that our keepers can be chosen last so the early picks will mean something this time

I get it and have made this argument several times, but I view the first 8 rounds as your keepers. That is why I am saying to me that is an 11th round offer. I don't think stacking them on the back makes any sense but I have lost that argument. Trading for the right to select Ryan Nugent Hopkins or whatever player is ranked 100th doesn't do it for me. Honestly haven't really worked out a new decision on how to build since the original plan involved only keeping probably four players to draft at the top of the draft as often as possible. I get you saying but this is a third, technically sure but it doesn't really offer me a chance to select a marquee player so it doesn't really interest me to swap Couturier for a lesser player, heck I might have to keep him in this format where I have no chance at rolling over roster spots for elite players aside from selecting heavily in the rookie department.

 

[Bench]

I get you saying but this is a third, technically sure but it doesn't really offer me a chance to select a marquee player

How were you going to select a marquee player if I let you drop more players? If everyone else can still keep their 8 best players, how are you getting a better player by getting more picks?

Also how is that any different than swapping players you don't want to keep in your top 8 for earlier picks so you can have a better team next year?

I've tried really hard to understand what you're driving at several times, but maybe somebody else can explain to me what I'm missing.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

How were you going to select a marquee player if I let you drop more players? If everyone else can still keep their 8 best players, how are you getting a better player by getting more picks?

Also how is that any different than swapping players you don't want to keep in your top 8 for earlier picks so you can have a better team next year?

I've tried really hard to understand what you're driving at several times, but maybe somebody else can explain to me what I'm missing.

I have tried to explain it, I look at keepers as an off-season roster with a high round number attributed.

So on your team you're selecting and I don't want to look at it as just your value but let's throw down your keepers:

You select 8 guys as keepers this means

1st round Bench pick.) Brent Burns (see whatever your highest player ranked is and progress on a round by round basis)
2nd round Bench pick.) Kopitar
3rd round Bench pick.) Wheeler
4th round Bench pick.) ROR
5th round Bench pick) Binnington
6th round Bench pick) Petro
7th round Bench pick) Marchessault
8th round Bench pick) Klingberg

If you, me or anybody were to choose only to keep four players you would begin drafting in the 5th round, while the other teams keepers are auto-selecting.

So say I want to only keep Hughes, OEL, Holtby and Kakko thus freeing up four rounds of selecting while others have taken the option of selecting their keepers that is where they would pick. By dropping them to the end of the draft you are protecting the premium talent without assigning the appropriate value to them in my opinion.

Your keeper selection is you setting the off-season roster with the players you want to maintain, but I am arguing they should be absolutely placed at the front of the draft in the corresponding slot with their value ranking. Your highest placed skater is autodrafted in that keeper slot in every other league I have played in. Those choosing to keep less keepers get earlier cracks at multiple guys to try to make up for the lack of having true keepers in each of the corresponding rounds. This is only more pronounced by dropping them back to the end of the draft. Where that means we all select starting in round one only you presumably have much better keeper talent holding down your end of draft process. I have trouble seeing why this concept is hard. Literally how every other keeper league I have ever been in starts.

But to me trading me a third round pick is basically an 11th round pick. Not only does it not actually take a swing at reduction of a keeper slot for you to load up, I am selecting after 30 picks in an already watered down talent pool. Is what it is, like I said I have to think on how to reload this and make due within the rules. But yeah a huge part of my early strategy was to take young foundational pieces that would grow into keeper, rolling over a minimal keeper for probably the first two years. Where I would jump up and have the ability to select four and then probably two players in front of everyone picking again. This format doesn't really allow that, so I am unsure which way I want to go. I can assemble the depth like I do in most other leagues on just knowing a crap ton of hockey, but I don't really have elite talent and it would seem impossible to get it while joining if we are drafting in this fashion. That is the point. Not that it is going to change, but that yes I don't see value in that pick in terms of swapping the better player for a third and 11th round pick scenario, it is buried behind too many selections for me to want to give up Couturier, I need to find a player swap that I believe will carry forward is the essence of the statement. That the picks are devalued, they don't represent off-season roster holding spots for keepers or anything of that nature, they lock in the last 8 selections of your team with your best talent.

Every one agreed to this though, so I am not saying I won't keep figuring it out. Just sort of a shock to the strategy I kind of had in mind while joining and thinking about how to approach the lack of keeper talent. The idea was to collect the Hughes, Kakko, Lafreniere and Byfield types and accept the growing pains while they evolved into keepers, you can hope they will still be there I guess in this process I have less certainty on it for sure though as we snake through each pick together without the odds of plotting the intentional keeper level value selections being turned over for draft position. I hope that makes sense, the rules are the rules, I will make due and figure out a way to take Holland's Revenge to the top. Just a tougher and likely longer build than I hoped, hey reality meets fantasy in my hockey teams lives.

 

[Hammettf2b]

But we dont have a choice of how many keepers we have. Everyone gets the same amount of keepers so the draft picks of non keepers have the same value to everyone. So like what Bench was saying, if you have multiple early round picks that means you have priority of the players rounding out your team next year. The draft isn't about drafting keeper caliber players unless you get lucky enough to draft a rookie stud.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

But we dont have a choice of how many keepers we have. Everyone gets the same amount of keepers so the draft picks of non keepers have the same value to everyone. So like what Bench was saying, if you have multiple early round picks that means you have priority of the players rounding out your team next year. The draft isn't about drafting keeper caliber players unless you get lucky enough to draft a rookie stud.

What I am trying to say that is flawed for me to trade and help others then in season.

So let's just say and this isn't perfect because other teams have better players that will go back in they will ultimately be scooped up before your pick.

We have a 14 team by 8 keeper league.

That means the top 112 players should really be off the board in the current scenario.

Now you're offering a third great, let's say that slots you in the middle of the third round as your team goes belly up or something so sweet, that means an additional 35 players are off the board. I mean what is the impetus here to help somebody else upgrade without a known young asset worth rolling the dice on keeping. For all I know the intriguing younger guys are snapped up in the first 35 picks by the time we get there. I can move that forward expending my first two picks on that idea and taking a vet there maybe, but the point I am trying to make is it certainly impacts how I evaluate the trade and my assessment is that draft picks are a crapshoot without a lot of value. I would be far more interested in evaluating Couturier for a young player I think develops into a top 8 slot on my team than hoping one exists after we rotate through three rounds of picks for every team. Now if you were trading and this is how it works in other leagues your 8th pick or final keeper slot. Well my, I can assess that. I dump 4 keepers and guess what you are picking with an open board and a known roster building strength. You have theoretically only a few people on the same strategy of not keeping 8 guys or those that sacrificed their 7th or 8th rounder to go all in on a championship run.

It allows more roster flexibility in my opinion when you treat the off-season roster keepers and associate a pick value to them. But again not what we are doing, just an explanation on why I don't find a 3rd for 11th swap all that enticing. A big part of it is I see that as 11th and 19th round value when looking at the actual talent level that will actually be available in the draft at those spots.

 

[Bench]

That means the top 112 players should really be off the board in the current scenario.

That's not how it actually works, though. People aren't actually keeping the top 112. They are going to be wrong about some players and subsequently there will always be players moving out of the top spots (my keeper Burns) and others moving into the top spots (the guy I let go, Provorov). Provorov (currently one of the top dynasty defenders you could possibly have) was drafted with the equivalent of a 3rd round pick, which you valued at basically nothing.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

That's not how it actually works, though. People aren't actually keeping the top 112. They are going to be wrong about some players and subsequently there will always be players moving out of the top spots (my keeper Burns) and others moving into the top spots (the guy I let go, Provorov). Provorov (currently one of the top dynasty defenders you could possibly have) was drafted with the equivalent of a 3rd round pick, which you valued at basically nothing.

I get that and the people throwing keepers back would have the right to select earlier is the point of having the value associated with an actual draft pick aligning with their talent is my point. So my 68th pick overall would be a selection and I would get to go again 82nd or whatever. I don't and will not understand burying your highest value on the end of the draft. I get why people with a solid stable of keepers love it, but the point is it does impact the value of picks. Some of those guys will slip through, that is how I got Dougie Hamilton on everyone, when you know the system actually functioned this way in this very draft.

It is fine, I guess I am making it fairly well known I don't value draft picks if you want to trade with me, unless there is a change in how they function. I can take my chances selecting in the normal snake, I don't find it worthwhile to help your team over the top, especially if you inquiring on a player I think is likely to go before the draft pick you're offering in the next season, respectfully not seeing the value in it @Bench. I can get you guys/gals being frustrated by that, but all I can do is make my position clear. I would be looking for known quantity younger players in this scenario not a sliding of draft rounds, we pick too deep, I will just have to find magic in my own picks, loading up on picks that are really in the sub 100s in terms of true talent isn't all that enticing even if you want to frame it that way for me and I am entitled to that opinion.

 

[Bench]

It is fine, I guess I am making it fairly well known I don't value draft picks if you want to trade with me, unless there is a change in how they function. I can take my chances selecting in the normal snake, I don't find it worthwhile to help your team over the top, especially if you inquiring on a player I think is likely to go before the draft pick you're offering in the next season, respectfully not seeing the value in it @Bench.

First of all, there will be no snake draft.

Second, you trade away players who are not in your top 8 to acquire a better draft pick position. For example, let's say my team falls out of the playoffs. Korpisalo is currently the 26th ranked player but maybe doesn't make my keeper list. I trade him to turn my 13rd round pick into a 1st round pick.

He's literally a guy I was putting back into the draft pool anyway, but now I can pick again in the 1st round ahead of people. You know, exactly the thing you wanted to do.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Ya, I'm not quite sure I understand the gripe here. I could understand you not liking the trade, thats fair, but the whole premise for you to trade isn't to "help" me out, its so you get better picks in next years draft thus having a more solid middle core group of players to go along with your young studs who will be another year older.

 

[Martinez]

He’s just talking about a way to help benefit the teams without 8 players that are worth keeping. It would be similar to the last draft how in the first rounds we got assigned our keepers and two teams picked from the pool. I’m kind of indifferent about it but it’s worth noting that every team would be able to do this. I also think the player pool will have some quality, I drafted players like makar, keller, and w karlsson this last draft.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Might be willing to trade Malkin. Would want futures plus something I could use this year in return.

 

[turkleton85]

Might be willing to trade Malkin. Would want futures plus something I could use this year in return.

sent you something

 

[Bench]

He’s just talking about a way to help benefit the teams without 8 players that are worth keeping.

I can tell you right now I have players in the top 100 presently that are going to be tough to keep. There's moves to be made if you want to shore up your core group. I have guys that are under 30, top 100, and I don't know if I can fit them into my top 8. I would love to flip one of these guys for several depth options. Sell your quantity for quality.

Only two trades have been made all year. If people are unwilling to barter, that's going to make it a struggle, though.