OT: HFWings Keeper Fantasy Hockey League: Season Three (need one new owner to run team)

[jaster]

I mentioned the group being a bit trade averse

This is totally minor and anecdotal, but I'm normally pretty willing to be active via trade.... I was just kinda caught in a weird spot this season where I started out building for the future, but realized early on I also had a fairly competitive team, so I was hesitant to trade much for the future while hamstringing my chances this year, but hesitant to trade for this year at the expense of the future I was building for. I couldn't convince myself to go full boar in either direction, but I'm not unhappy with a 4th-place finish and an improved keeper squad for the future. That is, unless @Bench convinces you all to dismantle my team

 

[jaster]

Alright dude, you win. The persistent complaints over every tweak in our for fun league is honestly not worth the effort. Every single year there were complaints about issues largely outside of the managers control and it's just exhausting when it's all done out of goodwill on free time. Being liaison to multiple sides of an issue and trying to create harmony and then getting blamed for the disfunction - super fun.

We only have 3 teams confirmed as being dropped (mantha39, BinCookin, and Ricelund), so feel free to add mine as the 4th, @Sparty . That'll be an even 10 for you guys.

Good luck, all.

Lol. C'mon @Bench, don't be that way. I totally appreciate you doing your best to bridge a gap here. Let's just keep discussing, no? I know I've been pushing hard here this afternoon, but two things. 1) I took my team out for lunch and drinks and I may be buzzing a little right now, and 2) My underlining priority for keeper leagues is integrity. Now, that doesn't always equate to fairness in the short-term, in fact it rarely does. But just so you know, I'm coming at this from that perspective. "Keeper league integrity." An avenue for teams to improve over time, and a consistency in league mechanics.

 

[jaster]

Not sure if this can be implemented properly or not but what if we get rid of the teams who haven't been managed, and letting the remaining bottom dwellers have first dibs of keepers from those teams based on standings. This way the bottom dwellers get a boost on their keeper personal while the other managers don't suffer of having to lose their assets. The rest goes into the draft pool.

God damn it, Hammett, do you have me blocked? I've been agreeing with you this whole time, and I suggested exactly that a page ago

 

[jaster]

Sorry if you're getting the salt, but this has been a few years of me trying to look out for everyone and winning with nobody. It's just not fun, especially when some hyper focus on negatives over and over with little else to say that rest of the year.

Since I'm the unpopular voice in the room it's better for you guys if I just bail and the league can resume on without the debates. Different visions and all that. No skin off my back.

I appreciate you putting in the energy. And I'm not sure you're the unpopular voice here. For all I know, it's me and Hammett, and the rest of the league is on your side! Tough to know when so few people participate in the discussion. I'm happy to keep discussing, but I'm not interested in you feeling like you're being run off here.

 

[Hammettf2b]

God damn it, Hammett, do you have me blocked? I've been agreeing with you this whole time, and I suggested exactly that a page ago

lmao I totally missed that post. But yes, I agree this would prob be the best solution. Its a win win in my book.

 

[jaster]

There's really nothing to do in this league once the season starts aside from hitting the button to set your lineup for the week and occasionally looking for some waiver pickups to make up for an injury or two. And the waiver pickups are never much to choose from outside of hitting someone going on a hot streak. There has to be more of a happy medium to find where you can build a team and have more turnover/action. I've admitted that I don't do the fantasy thing much at all, but it seems that our having 8 keepers is on the high side.

Soooo, that is one part a legit concern, and one part the nature of a keeper league. A properly-run keeper league will never have much movement among the top players, unless you're like one ofmy keeper baseball leagues where 3 managers seems to trade all of their top keepers with each other every season to no benefit of any of them But yes, finding a way to have more movement is fair. I don't have an immediate answer to that (again, I'm buzzing right now), but I'll give it some thought

When the league started I think a fair bit of the folks were more like me than you, not a lot of experience with it and just sort of going with it. Because of that some of the initial rule setups, point values, etc. were maybe less nuanced than they should have been. It's also part of why I'm pretty okay changing things up to try to find something more workable: this whole thing is more of a work-in-progress deal than a set-in-stone monolith.

If all of us had more of a clue when we started I think the league would have probably been set up a little differently from the start.

Wish I had been here when it started. Not that I am the almighty keeper league guru by any means, but I've been involved with a lot of them for a long time. Didn't realize there was a lack of experience when this started. I'm in to add to the discussion and help if I can. I've just seen knee-jerk reactions in keeper leagues and they never turn out well. But if everyone in this league is more of the newbie type and willing to change things up quickly, maybe it is not Bench, but more myself, who is the odd man out. Which would be fine, I ain't mad, but I do think there are some nice wrinkles to this league with the prospect aspect that I enjoy.

 

[Winger98]

Quite the opposite. You have a rare gift of making people feel heard even when you're likely rolling your eyes at them. Honestly I don't know how you do it and envy that quality.

I'm a bit more, uhh, Ed Belfour, despite my best efforts.

My favorite part of that gif is Belfour swatting at LaPointe on the way down to help move him out of the way.

This is totally minor and anecdotal, but I'm normally pretty willing to be active via trade.... I was just kinda caught in a weird spot this season where I started out building for the future, but realized early on I also had a fairly competitive team, so I was hesitant to trade much for the future while hamstringing my chances this year, but hesitant to trade for this year at the expense of the future I was building for. I couldn't convince myself to go full boar in either direction, but I'm not unhappy with a 4th-place finish and an improved keeper squad for the future. That is, unless @Bench convinces you all to dismantle my team

well, I wouldn't be opposed to it.

I'm still unsure of value with trades. I dealt Laine part way through the first season because he was slipping and I wanted more depth, I think I got Hertl and another guy I kept for him, and got some looks for it. This year, because of the mess with covid and everything, the trade deadline came and went before I even realized it was happening. I was also doing unexpectedly well, which surprised me. I didn't think my team was that strong coming in.

 

[jaster]

Quite the opposite. You have a rare gift of making people feel heard even when you're likely rolling your eyes at them. Honestly I don't know how you do it and envy that quality.

I'm a bit more, uhh, Ed Belfour, despite my best efforts.

You see yourself as Eddie the Eagle??? Get some damn glasses Bench, you aren't even remotely close to being that level of asshole lol.

 

[Bench]

Lol. C'mon @Bench, don't be that way.

You're coming in late to the party here and missing context. This same cycle happened the previous two years as well. I've tried to be an advocate for change because nobody else was stepping up to do it. And the result has been pages and pages of mired talks where both sides end up unhappy with the result.

At some point it's like, hey, that's not fun. Why am I bothering if it's not fun?

I don't have near the value on integrity for the present rules and systems that you and others seem to share. I think most of them were created by one well-meaning dude who just wanted a few friends to try something new with. And the holes in them became apparent immediately but goodness, changing the sacred texts of our league where we've had over 30% turnover in just a few years... A bridge too far, I guess.

I appreciate the good times but I don't have an interest in continuing the process. Sorry I keep responding like this is some belabored thing but I feel an obligation to at least respond to folks who are taking the time to say something.

 

[Bench]

You see yourself as Eddie the Eagle??? Get some damn glasses Bench, you aren't even remotely close to being that level of asshole lol.

Temperamental perhaps. Hair trigger? Let's just spin it as passionate, yeah, that'll do.

I did acquire more PIMs from the crease than I should have, let me put it that way.

 

[jaster]

well, I wouldn't be opposed to it.

It would definitely motivate me to bail on the league. No emotion there, not a tantrum, just a simple objective determination on my part. And totally fair for you guys to point to me in that case, if I were to bail, and be like "new guy jumped in and jumped right back out, no real loss, and easily replaced," and that would be totally fair. I'm the new guy, I don't control the league, it's all good. But I'll refer to the point I've tried to drive home in this thread.... try to understand what a keeper league is. Or what you want out of it at least. It may not be that a keeper league is what you desire. Changing rules, suddenly, in a keeper league, is not healthy for a keeper league (especially when there are other ways to fix your parity problem). You should probably switch to a redraft league at that point.

 

[Winger98]

Soooo, that is one part a legit concern, and one part the nature of a keeper league. A properly-run keeper league will never have much movement among the top players, unless you're like one ofmy keeper baseball leagues where 3 managers seems to trade all of their top keepers with each other every season to no benefit of any of them But yes, finding a way to have more movement is fair. I don't have an immediate answer to that (again, I'm buzzing right now), but I'll give it some thought

Wish I had been here when it started. Not that I am the almighty keeper league guru by any means, but I've been involved with a lot of them for a long time. Didn't realize there was a lack of experience when this started. I'm in to add to the discussion and help if I can. I've just seen knee-jerk reactions in keeper leagues and they never turn out well. But if everyone in this league is more of the newbie type and willing to change things up quickly, maybe it is not Bench, but more myself, who is the odd man out. Which would be fine, I ain't mad, but I do think there are some nice wrinkles to this league with the prospect aspect that I enjoy.

I know Bench has more experience with the league, I thought Eternal Sunshine did but I'm not sure any more. it was a mix but I'm think anyone was into it hot and heavy, so when the more experienced folks suggested something there were a bunch of us who had a collective shrug and didn't know what the hell was being talked about. Yahoo having a less than user friendly interface hasn't helped, either.

I think folks are more conservative and are more hesitant to change things up, devil you know and what not. I might be the outlier but I'm really doing this just for fun and because I like interacting with the folks around here. So, changing things up, resetting the whole league? sure, what the hell. Want to keep going the way it is? I can be good with that, too. It's not a make/break thing for me.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing goalies capped a bit at 3 or 4. I'm also hoping that going with a smaller group this next season will make the waiver wire a bit more important. This last season, if I needed someone, I just scrolled though guys who had been hot the past couple of weeks and saw if there was a fit.

 

[jaster]

You're coming in late to the party here and missing context. This same cycle happened the previous two years as well. I've tried to be an advocate for change because nobody else was stepping up to do it. And the result has been pages and pages of mired talks where both sides end up unhappy with the result.

At some point it's like, hey, that's not fun. Why am I bothering if it's not fun?

Oh I get it. I've seen similar struggles in other keeper leagues. I get that you're feeling like giving up on it. I've seen it happen. I'm just trying to convince you not to. Ultimately, it's your call of course.

I don't have near the value on integrity for the present rules and systems that you and others seem to share. I think most of them were created by one well-meaning dude who just wanted a few friends to try something new with. And the holes in them became apparent immediately but goodness, changing the sacred texts of our league where we've had over 30% turnover in just a few years... A bridge too far, I guess.

I appreciate the good times but I don't have an interest in continuing the process. Sorry I keep responding like this is some belabored thing but I feel an obligation to at least respond to folks who are taking the time to say something.

That's unfortunate that the league was started with a lack of expertise. Obviously it resulted in a rocky foundation and some bad seeds being planted. Tough to overcome. To reiterate though, it's not the integrity of the present rules and systems that I value. They can certainly be changed, to varying degrees. What I'm arguing against is abrupt changes that result in many people having then wasted a lot of time and energy (and places in the standings), and drastic changes like cutting keeper numbers by a whole 50%, once again resulting in many people having then wasted a lot of time and energy. That's the "keeper league integrity" I'm talking about. Meanwhile, we have a great opportunity with 4 teams contracting to help solve the parity problem without upending the "keeper" part of the keeper league.

 

[jaster]

I know Bench has more experience with the league, I thought Eternal Sunshine did but I'm not sure any more. it was a mix but I'm think anyone was into it hot and heavy, so when the more experienced folks suggested something there were a bunch of us who had a collective shrug and didn't know what the hell was being talked about. Yahoo having a less than user friendly interface hasn't helped, either.

I think folks are more conservative and are more hesitant to change things up, devil you know and what not. I might be the outlier but I'm really doing this just for fun and because I like interacting with the folks around here. So, changing things up, resetting the whole league? sure, what the hell. Want to keep going the way it is? I can be good with that, too. It's not a make/break thing for me.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing goalies capped a bit at 3 or 4. I'm also hoping that going with a smaller group this next season will make the waiver wire a bit more important. This last season, if I needed someone, I just scrolled though guys who had been hot the past couple of weeks and saw if there was a fit.

This will absolutely happen. With 14 teams and such large rosters, the free agent pool in this league was rough. It was damn near irrelevant. And coupled with the number of keepers in this league, it was probably closer to a dynasty league than a keeper league. The dynamics of this league resulted in a high degree of importance on keepers, another high degree of importance on the draft, and then minimal importance on the free agent pool.

Contracting to 10 teams means the league goes from almost 400 rostered players to closer to 280. It will be a boon to the free agent pool. We'll also go from 112 [non-prospect] keepers to 80, so the pool of players to acquire worthwhile keepers from will also increase.

Simply contracting 4 teams will move the needle on parity in this league. Couple that with a contraction draft, and the health of this league should be pretty good.

 

[Bench]

Meanwhile, we have a great opportunity with 4 teams contracting to help solve the parity problem without upending the "keeper" part of the keeper league.

Have at it. Someone treat Otter well, please.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Temperamental perhaps. Hair trigger? Let's just spin it as passionate, yeah, that'll do.

I did acquire more PIMs from the crease than I should have, let me put it that way.

f***in dirty goalies, I tell ya.

I get maybe a penalty every third or fourth season. I did get a penalty once for the Hasek move (take out guy's legs between circle by playing the puck) to which the ref said "I'd have done it too, but I gotta call you for it". Also, only once ever got a 10, a 3, and a potential suspension. Bell goes after I blow a 5-3 lead in the third period to lose 6-5 in a must-win game to reach the championship. Turned and fired my stick at the boards (nobody else was remotely in the area) in the left corner and it made a huge bang. Ended up leading my team in PIMs for the season from that play alone.

 

[Sparty]

Movement decreased dramatically after the first season. We had 4 trades all year, 2 of them were mine, and one of them is because Sparty was a bro and took pity on me for messing up my keeper selection of Blackwood. So 3 real trades.

Year 1 had 26 recorded trades.

Hey I made another big trade! I dumped Tavares and Seth Jones, got Provorov and JGP back in return.

Didn't realize there was hot and heavy debate going on the last few days or I would have tuned in, my bad.

I think along the lines of what Jaster had said mostly but I understand where Bench is coming from too. I think we stay the course and see how it works out with us contracting these four teams. The teams at the bottom are going to get the first shots at guys like Vasilevsky, Zibanejab, Guentzel, Alec Martinez, Huberdeau, Panarin, Stamkos, Quinn Hughes, Boeser, Giroux, Gaudreau, Kuznetsov, Kopitar, Necas, etc.

I think we're mostly running off the teams that are not competitive. I think the only team that should have a real gripe here is our one remaining expansion team, and they seem fine with keeping things how they are. They're going to have the first pick in the draft coming up to help them along too.

The goalie cap thing I don't know how we manage, because if we do cap the number of goalies how do you account for prospect goalies, which I'm worried about now because I have two guys I'd really like to keep (Swayman and Gustavsson).

 

[jaster]

The goalie cap thing I don't know how we manage, because if we do cap the number of goalies how do you account for prospect goalies, which I'm worried about now because I have two guys I'd really like to keep (Swayman and Gustavsson).

I think excluding prospect goalies from a potential rule would be fine? Or put a separate cap on them?

- Teams may keep up to 2 non-prospect goalies
- Teams may keep up to 2 prospect goalies

Something like that maybe?

Then again, it may just not be necessary. Who would keep so many goalies anyway? Other than you lol?

 

[Sparty]

I had so many goalie injuries this year it was wild. Ullmark missed most of the season, Rask missed a ton, while I had Blackwood he was hurt a bunch, Talbot missed like twenty games...I must have used twenty different goalies this year. In doing so I got attached to those two kids, lol.

We have been having this conversation since the league started though. I'm not sure it really matters in a fourteen team league, it might make a bigger difference now but I just think people should be able to build teams how they want.

 

[turkleton85]

maybe we should expand to people outside of this board. Ask friends or family who are hockey fans if they want to join in. This might be the only way the league continues for a few years

 

[turkleton85]

They can read or join here to get information about whats going on. This way we wouldn't have a league with zombie teams

 

[Hammettf2b]

any updates? is the league even still going to continue?

 

[turkleton85]

any updates? is the league even still going to continue?

i'm ready, as usual

 

[Wyzer Plan]

I have never played in a fantasy hockey league let alone a keeper league. I'd be willing to do some research and give er the ol' college effort. That is if there is still an opening.

 

[Sards]

I’ve got to back out for this season. I wasn’t able to keep up last season and probably won’t have the time this year either. Not sure how the commish want to handle.