HFCanucks All-time Goalie Rankings- #1

[John Belushi]

Off the top of my head, my own list would be...

1. Luongo
2. McLean
3. Brodeur
4. Smith
5. Markstrom
6. Schneider
7. Miller
8. Cloutier
9. Lack
10. Auld

I'd take Garth Snow over Alex Auld. Snow put up better numbers behind a far worse team.. Auld wasn't any better than an injured Cloutier and his numbers tanked after leaving Vancouver

 

[MS]

Clouts had three great years in a row for us. 30 plus wins in each, and was really good. He’s for certain top five, and I have him better than Schneider - as a Canuck.

Cloutier was terrible all 3 of those years, save for a blip in the first half of the 2002-03, and a total liability to the team. The fact that an elite team can drag a backup-level goalie to 30 wins if you give him 60 starts doesn’t mean he’s good. Louis Domingue could probably win 30 games behind the 2018-20 Lightning if you gave him 60 starts, too.

And that’s before going into his playoff performances, which are the single worst of any goalie with 20+ playoff starts in the modern era.

 

[MS]

Off the top of my head, my own list would be...

1. Luongo
2. McLean
3. Brodeur
4. Smith
5. Markstrom
6. Schneider
7. Miller
8. Cloutier
9. Lack
10. Auld

I’ll argue for Markstrom over Brodeur when we get to that point, but what exactly is your argument for Smith over Markstrom at this point?

 

[Fatass]

Cloutier was terrible all 3 of those years, save for a blip in the first half of the 2002-03, and a total liability to the team. The fact that an elite team can drag a backup-level goalie to 30 wins if you give him 60 starts doesn’t mean he’s good. Louis Domingue could probably win 30 games behind the 2018-20 Lightning if you gave him 60 starts, too.

And that’s before going into his playoff performances, which are the single worst of any goalie with 20+ playoff starts in the modern era.

Clouts proved he was better than Schneider during their time as Canucks. Schneider wasn’t even a starter! He shouldn’t be an option.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

The all-time Canucks poll thread gave me the idea to do a Canucks prospect-esque rankings of every position.

Rankings should be on who was the best during their time with the Canucks. How long they were with the Canucks doesn't matter unless it is a tie-breaker between goalies.

I will do the top 5. If you were expecting to choose who was better between Jason Labarbera and Richard Bachman; prepare to be disappointed.

Poll will be up for two days before I do #2

So it's just a measurement of how good the goalie was at his prime with the Canucks? In other words, their resume and sample size don't matter at all? Just their peak season as a Canuck is what matters?

 

[MS]

Clouts proved he was better than Schneider during their time as Canucks. Schneider wasn’t even a starter! He shouldn’t be an option.

Cloutier was a bottom-5 starter in the league for 2 of his 3 full seasons here and maybe around an 18-22 starter in the league in 02-03. And the worst playoff goalie in post-1967 NHL history.

Schneider didn’t play a lot of games but the quality of those games was absolutely elite.

 

[xtra]

Are we basing it of their entire career or just their time as a canuck?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

honestly i wouldn’t say cloutier was any worse than the other backup-level guys handed the starting job between mclean and luongo, namely snow and weekes.

but i also wouldn’t say he was any better than his backups, like ancient bob essensa, hedberg, or auld.

 

[Vector]

Even at the time I would rather have had Hedberg or Auld as the starter over Cloutier.

I joke about Irbe but it drove me crazy as a kid that we let Irbe go when he was the only solid goalie we had and were a revolving door of bad ideas. He went on to have a career year with Carolina the next season, was a solid workhorse for the next two seasons, and was a big reason that team somehow made the finals in 2002.

 

[MS]

So it's just a measurement of how good the goalie was at his prime with the Canucks? In other words, their resume and sample size don't matter at all? Just their peak season as a Canuck is what matters?

Are we basing it of their entire career or just their time as a canuck?

I would assume time as a Canuck. Like, nobody would call Mark Messier and Cam Neely 2 of the best 3 forwards in Canuck history. Or Wayne Gretzky the greatest St. Louis Blue.

If anyone understands baseball stats, I will be voting for the guy I feel had the highest total WAR as a Canuck.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

I’ll argue for Markstrom over Brodeur when we get to that point, but what exactly is your argument for Smith over Markstrom at this point?

Markstrom, to me, is in a state of flux - he’s definitely climbing the list. I’d say the only edge Smith has at this point is he lead the Canucks to the playoffs. When Markstrom does that (and I think it’s a when that will happen soon), IMO, he will supplant Smith. And I can see him passing Brodeur quite easily, too.

All IMO, of course.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Even at the time I would rather have had Hedberg or Auld as the starter over Cloutier.

I joke about Irbe but it drove me crazy as a kid that we let Irbe go when he was the only solid goalie we had and were a revolving door of bad ideas. He went on to have a career year with Carolina the next season, was a solid workhorse for the next two seasons, and was a big reason that team somehow made the finals in 2002.

Letting Irbe walk was an insane decision at the time - as was moving on from Sean Burke after only a handful of games. Put either of those guys in net during the WCE years, and history would be quite different.

Bob Essensa played some really good hockey for us during his season here. He also looked easily better than Cloutier during his starts in that sweep against Colorado. Fondly remember the “Bob-E, Bob-E” chants.

 

[Vector]

Letting Irbe walk was an insane decision at the time - as was moving on from Sean Burke after only a handful of games. Put either of those guys in net during the WCE years, and history would be quite different.

Bob Essensa played some really good hockey for us during his season here. He also looked easily better than Cloutier during his starts in that sweep against Colorado. Fondly remember the “Bob-E, Bob-E” chants.

Started 1997 with McLeand Irbe. Then Bruke. Then Snow. 1998 was Snow, Hirsch, and Weekes. 1999 was Snow and Weekes then, for whatever reason, acquired Potvin. Gave up on Potvin after 35 games into the next year and Bob Essensa was the starter with Cloutier as the future. I really liked Essensa but knew that there's almost no chance it was sustainable. His numbers weren't even very good, he was just way more dependable than everyone who came before him that wasn't Irbe.

If they just stuck with Irbe they could have saved a bunch of assets. Instead created the stupid goalie graveyard bull that idiots keep using as some sort of excuse. I had just started watching hockey in 1997 and I figured this out right away!

 

[ChilliBilly]

Off the top of my head, my own list would be...

1. Luongo
2. McLean
3. Brodeur
4. Smith
5. Markstrom
6. Schneider
7. Miller
8. Cloutier
9. Lack
10. Auld

Like this list. HM to Irbe.

 

[MS]

Markstrom, to me, is in a state of flux - he’s definitely climbing the list. I’d say the only edge Smith has at this point is he lead the Canucks to the playoffs. When Markstrom does that (and I think it’s a when that will happen soon), IMO, he will supplant Smith. And I can see him passing Brodeur quite easily, too.

All IMO, of course.

I mean, this season ended prematurely with the Canucks sitting in a playoff position that Markstrom pretty much single-handedly carried them to, so I think for the purposes of this discussion you can say that's happened.

Both Smith and Markstrom have 3 seasons as a Canuck starting goalie.

Markstrom was unequivocally a top-5 goalie in the NHL this season, and that basically cancels out Smith's 74-75 season.

Markstrom's 2018-19 season is probably comparable to Smith's 73-74 season - both good performances for bad teams.

And Markstrom's 17-18 season is unquestionably better than Smith's awful 75-76 season, when Smith was 18th of 20 goalies with 40+ appearances in save %, and was badly outplayed by Spider Lockett and Curt Ridley.

Plus Markstrom has two extra seasons as an above-average backup.

The only thing that could tip the balance in favour of Smith is playoff performances - and Smith won 1 playoff game as a Canuck.

 

[LuckyDay]

Gary Smith
Glen "The Franchise" Hanlon
Troy Gamble
Gary Bromley

All should be in this poll

Don't forget that John Garret was not only an All Star, he was third man in in a fight with Mario Lemieux.

I still say that Steve Weeks was better than Kirk MacLean - at least at stopping the puck (when it wasn't clutch).

 

[MS]

Even at the time I would rather have had Hedberg or Auld as the starter over Cloutier.

I joke about Irbe but it drove me crazy as a kid that we let Irbe go when he was the only solid goalie we had and were a revolving door of bad ideas. He went on to have a career year with Carolina the next season, was a solid workhorse for the next two seasons, and was a big reason that team somehow made the finals in 2002.

Letting Irbe walk was an insane decision at the time - as was moving on from Sean Burke after only a handful of games. Put either of those guys in net during the WCE years, and history would be quite different.

Bob Essensa played some really good hockey for us during his season here. He also looked easily better than Cloutier during his starts in that sweep against Colorado. Fondly remember the “Bob-E, Bob-E” chants.

Started 1997 with McLeand Irbe. Then Bruke. Then Snow. 1998 was Snow, Hirsch, and Weekes. 1999 was Snow and Weekes then, for whatever reason, acquired Potvin. Gave up on Potvin after 35 games into the next year and Bob Essensa was the starter with Cloutier as the future. I really liked Essensa but knew that there's almost no chance it was sustainable. His numbers weren't even very good, he was just way more dependable than everyone who came before him that wasn't Irbe.

If they just stuck with Irbe they could have saved a bunch of assets. Instead created the stupid goalie graveyard bull that idiots keep using as some sort of excuse. I had just started watching hockey in 1997 and I figured this out right away!

The numbers on Irbe for that season are absolutely incredible.

Irbe went 14-11-6 with a .907 save % and 2.73 GAA.
The rest of the team's goalies went 11-32-8 with a .881 save % and a 3.57 GAA.

And it wasn't like those numbers were the result of being injured and missing a stretch where the team played poorly - he was healthy all year and his games were evenly spaced. They just absolutely refused to see that he was the best option.

The reasons given for releasing him were even worse. The league made the crease very slightly smaller after the 1997-98 season in response to criticism of the toe-in-crease rule (which of course would be removed entirely after the 1999 Cup Final debacle) and the narrative spewed by Burke and Keenan was that they needed a big goalie to command that smaller crease. Just absolutely garbage logic.

As for this poll, I'll rate Irbe ahead of Cloutier for the same reasons I'd rate Anson Carter or Nick Bonino ahead of Markus Granlund or Jeff Brown ahead of Erik Gudbranson.

 

[Jyrki21]

Schneider didn’t play a lot of games but the quality of those games was absolutely elite.

The issue with Schneider – or really most of the Canucks' latter-day goalies – is that goaltending has evolved more in technique (and I assume equipment) than any other hockey position, so pretty much the later in history you go, the better they are. In absolute terms, there is no doubt Schneider was better than pretty much anyone who came before him except Luongo. Mid-tier AHL goalies today are probably better in absolute terms than the star goalies of most eras. So I assume we're only looking at how they performed relative to their peers.

If that is the case, I'd say Schneider still is up there, even with a smaller sample size. He absolutely killed it in his time as a Canuck.

I'd also say (with no real reference to their placement on the list, because the Canucks rarely had star goalies historically) that both McLean and Brodeur are remembered as being far more effective as Canuck starters than they were. I've shown the numbers here before, but both actually only had one or two notable seasons relative to the rest of the league, and one memorable playoff run each. In 1991-92 McLean was full value – the rest of the time in the regular season he was quite middling, and the last few seasons of his career were pretty brutal. And I'm saying this as someone who loved the guy.

I have no issue placing Cloutier in the top 10 more or less by default; he did have some decent regular seasons, even though he was obviously on some good teams. By the eye test he always scared the crap out of me, though.

 

[MS]

Gary Smith
Glen "The Franchise" Hanlon
Troy Gamble
Gary Bromley

All should be in this poll

Don't forget that John Garret was not only an All Star, he was third man in in a fight with Mario Lemieux.

I still say that Steve Weeks was better than Kirk MacLean - at least at stopping the puck (when it wasn't clutch).

Garrett was only an All-Star because Richard Brodeur had his ear nearly taken off by a slapshot and couldn't go at the last minute, so they sent the other Canuck goalie because Brodeur was the only Canuck selected and we needed to have representation, and that was the only way to do it. At the time, he had a ghastly .873 save % and had only played 2 games as a Canuck after being traded from Quebec.

Short of John Scott, it was one of the most unusual All-Star selections in NHL history.

Bromley definitely does not belong here - he had 1 season with over 20 games in a Canuck net, and was badly outplayed by Hanlon in that season. Neither does Troy Gamble - he had one full semi-OK season (17th of 21 goalies with over 40 GP in save % although he outplayed McLean, who had an absolute disaster year) and then had PCS issues and couldn't stop a beachball in 1991-92 and was quickly out of the league after that.

 

[MS]

The issue with Schneider – or really most of the Canucks' latter-day goalies – is that goaltending has evolved more in technique (and I assume equipment) than any other hockey position, so pretty much the later in history you go, the better they are. In absolute terms, there is no doubt Schneider was better than pretty much anyone who came before him except Luongo. Mid-tier AHL goalies today are probably better in absolute terms than the star goalies of most eras. So I assume we're only looking at how they performed relative to their peers.

If that is the case, I'd say Schneider still is up there, even with a smaller sample size. He absolutely killed it in his time as a Canuck.

I'd also say (with no real reference to their placement on the list, because the Canucks rarely had star goalies historically) that both McLean and Brodeur are remembered as being far more effective as Canuck starters than they were. I've shown the numbers here before, but both actually only had one or two notable seasons relative to the rest of the league, and one memorable playoff run each. In 1991-92 McLean was full value – the rest of the time in the regular season he was quite middling, and the last few seasons of his career were pretty brutal. And I'm saying this as someone who loved the guy.

I have no issue placing Cloutier in the top 10 more or less by default; he did have some decent regular seasons, even though he was obviously on some good teams. By the eye test he always scared the crap out of me, though.

Agreed on McLean and Brodeur.

The distinction, though, is that McLean peaked elite (2x Vezina finalist) and then surrounded it with a bunch of average-to-slightly-below-average seasons from 1988-95 (excluding 1990-91 which was terrible) before falling off. Brodeur peaked at slightly above average from 1980-82, and then spent 5 years living off that Cup run while he mostly absolutely stunk. Same sort of thing, but different overall levels of play.

Cloutier to me was an average backup who was stupidly given 3 years as a starter behind elite teams because of a) pedigree b) he beat up a guy in a fight and teams loved his competitive streak and c) Brian Burke is really, really bad at evaluating goalies. The guy should never, ever have been a starting NHL goalie on a good team and he actively hurt those teams by being placed in that role.

 

[Dissonance Jr]

On Cloutier, I do think it's telling that after he went down with an injury in the fall of 2005, we rolled with Alex Auld — who is nobody's idea of a stellar netminder — for an entire season and he gave us basically the same results. He might've been a bit worse,* but he still won 33 games and the gap wasn't nearly as large as you'd like to see if Cloutier were actually an elite goalie.

---

* The 2005-06 team was a little worse defensively than the 2003-04 team, true, and some of that might have been because of the downgrade from Cloutier to Auld, but there were a bunch of additional factors there, too: key injuries on the blue line, particularly Salo and Jovo; the loss of quality depth on the backend with Sopel/Malik gone; plus the fact that the Bertuzzi/Naslund line really lost a step that year and were pretty tragic defensively.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Luongo deserves the nomination based on stats and longevity (consistently solid numbers), but my gut tells me that it’s Markstrom...as of right hut now. Markstrom, this year and last year, was better than peak Roberto Luongo. Maybe Luongo of 2006-2007 is comparable (in terms of carrying the team).

 

[xtra]

Luongo deserves the nomination based on stats and longevity (consistently solid numbers), but my gut tells me that it’s Markstrom...as of right hut now. Markstrom, this year and last year, was better than peak Roberto Luongo. Maybe Luongo of 2006-2007 is comparable (in terms of carrying the team).

Lol that’s just wrong;


Markstroms best stats are 2.75 gaa and .918 sv% the last 2 years.
Every single one of Luis years here he had a better goals against and 4 seasons with a better save percentage
Like markstroms career year as a canuck is like lui goa 4th/5th best year as a canuck

you clearly don’t remeber how good luongo was or are blinded by Markstroms play being more recent.


Editors to note that markstroms numbers were based on the last 2 years as per the original post

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Lol that’s just wrong;


Markstroms best stats are 2.75 gaa and .918 sv%
Every single one of Luis years here he had a better goals against and 4 seasons with a better save percentage
Like markstroms career year as a canuck is like lui goa 4th/5th best year as a canuck

you clearly don’t remeber how good luongo was or are blinded by Markstroms play being more recent.

Agreed, Luongo put up three seasons where he was neck-and-neck with winning the Vezina (2003-2004, 2006-2007, and 2010-2011 winning the Jennings). He should have won the Vezina in 2006-2007, but that's been discussed to death on here.

Markstrom has not put up a Vezina-nominee season yet. He's getting close, though. If he can improve a bit more, he will likely get some nods - but he only has a few years left for his prime.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Started 1997 with McLeand Irbe. Then Bruke. Then Snow. 1998 was Snow, Hirsch, and Weekes. 1999 was Snow and Weekes then, for whatever reason, acquired Potvin. Gave up on Potvin after 35 games into the next year and Bob Essensa was the starter with Cloutier as the future. I really liked Essensa but knew that there's almost no chance it was sustainable. His numbers weren't even very good, he was just way more dependable than everyone who came before him that wasn't Irbe.

If they just stuck with Irbe they could have saved a bunch of assets. Instead created the stupid goalie graveyard bull that idiots keep using as some sort of excuse. I had just started watching hockey in 1997 and I figured this out right away!

it real was odd that our two best goalies between mclean and luongo were these two old small guys, irbe and essensa. but they kept handing the job to these big stiffs: pre-allaire sean burke, snow, weekes, potvin when he sucked, then riding and dying with cloutier.

another small guy who briefly was in the system was manny legace, who when he got a shot, in detroit of all places, ended up being a productive contributor for the next decade.