Hextall's Moves

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BrindamoursNose

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This illustrates perfectly my problem with Hextall as a GM.

Isn't that ideally how it should go, though?

A coach being able to decide who actually plays for the team seems ideal to me. Now, you can argue he's wrong of course, but GMs going with coaches' decisions to play people is a pretty normal thing.
 

BrindamoursNose

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Thats not at all what Im saying and Im not your bud.

Then respond to something I actually posed to you rather than tell me how you're disappointed in my mentality.

I posed a question: What did it really change? Would we have done much better?

I heard crickets in response. All I heard was you being overdramatic by suggesting we re-sign Lehtera to a deal (which I clearly said I didn't want -- said we're just going to wait him out until he's gone).

Make some legitimate points and we can have a real discussion.
 

Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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Again, there wasn't a rat's hair of difference between Lehtera, Leier, Weise and Read.
And the PK in the playoffs with Lehtera was one of the best units (SSS but hey, they did stop the best PP in the league).
So obsessing over his 10 minutes of TOI is simply a proxy for dislike of Hakstol, and not an educated critique.

The only reason you defend Lehtera is as a proxy for the coach you're in love with. He was useless at ES, on the PP and PK and no other coach in the league would have used him the way Simple Hak did.
 

BrindamoursNose

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The problem with Lehtera isn't the effect he had last year. The real problem is what his usage means going forward.

If Hakstol can't see that he had better options available, then his player evaluation in the future will continue being a problem, even if Lehtera isn't the one he's overusing. Lehtera is a temporary problem, Hakstol's lack of common sense is a continual problem.

Luckily Hakstols toys are slowly being taken away, so even if Lehtera is here next year, he'll be gone the next, and replaced by a superior player. Vandevelde is gone, Manning is gone, Filppula appears to be gone, Lehtera will soon be gone, and we have plenty of people to fill those holes already.

According to what I can find in hard numbers (since looking back on the season tends to distort my views), it doesn't appear as though Lehtera was used very much based on TOI.

I agree Hakstol sucks, but I don't think this thing in particular is dooming the Flyers to the point where pitchforks need to come out. If there are better options (which I'd probably say there were) to replace him, I think the improvement wouldn't been minuscule for this team.

But yes, as you said: Lehtera will be gone soon. He could be gone very very soon, but we'll have to wait and see.
 

Curufinwe

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Then respond to something I actually posed to you rather than tell me how you're disappointed in my mentality.

I posed a question: What did it really change? Would we have done much better?

Hak's inexplicable over usage of Lehtera cost the team points in the standings and re-tarded the growth of genuine prospects like Laughton and Sanheim. Your argument seems to be that it's OK for the Flyers to voluntarily shoot themselves in the foot if they only lose a pinky toe.
 

BrindamoursNose

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Hak's inexplicable over usage of Lehtera cost the team points in the standings and re-tarded the growth of genuine prospects like Laughton and Sanheim. Your argument seems to be that it's OK for the Flyers to voluntarily shoot themselves in the foot if they only lose a pinky toe.

I'm genuinely serious when I ask this: what do you mean by overusage?

From what I can see, his TOI was exceptionally low relative to the rest of the roster; he's got the 17th worst TOI/GP in the NHL for players who played over 50 games last year (I chose 50 since there's a billion people with less that were part-timers, I'm sure). Out of 535 skaters that fit this criteria, he's the 17th. That's not exactly overusage. I mean if Lehtera is going to be in the game day lineup, he's got to get some minutes. Now I don't necessarily agree with him being in the lineup over anyone else (but it's debatable at-best), but if he's in the lineup he's got to do something.

I hate writing these posts because it makes it look like I'm a fan of Lehtera or something -- I dislike the dude. I don't want him on this team.

But the reason why I post is because I think this community is going HAM on this dude/his usage when it really isn't that bad relative to the rest of the team or the NHL. Hasn't hurt us significantly and he'll be gone soon. This is the kind of roster issue where I see him in the roster, shake my head, and move on with my life. So-so teams (like the Flyers last year) have a so-so roster typically that includes bad players like Lehtera in it. That's the nature of sports rosters even if I don't like it.
 

BrindamoursNose

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Hak's inexplicable over usage of Lehtera cost the team points in the standings and re-tarded the growth of genuine prospects like Laughton and Sanheim. Your argument seems to be that it's OK for the Flyers to voluntarily shoot themselves in the foot if they only lose a pinky toe.

No way is that my argument.

Pinky toes are mega important! They go wee-wee-wee all the way home.
 

deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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The only reason you defend Lehtera is as a proxy for the coach you're in love with. He was useless at ES, on the PP and PK and no other coach in the league would have used him the way Simple Hak did.

Don't be silly, look at the other trash around the league that played more minutes than Lehtera.
The bottom of the roster for most teams is filled with players like Lehtera, Leier, Weise and Read - marginal scrubs.
When you're choosing between scrubs, the decision is often made with regard to team balance, a soft team like the Flyers needed Lehtera's "heaviness" more than Leier's ineffectual skating (the worst PK player on the team, useless in the D-zone and along the boards).

The real problem is putting a coach in such an untenable position where all he has are bad choices.
And that's the GM's fault.
 
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Curufinwe

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Who's complaining about Lehtera playing over Leier on the PK? We're talking about Laughton. Hell, I bet Scotty could have come up with a point or two in 35 minutes of PP time if Hak wasn't force feeding it to a veteran slug.

I'm genuinely serious when I ask this: what do you mean by overusage?

He played 62 games when there was no reason for him to play more than 20-25 when multiple injuries struck.

He was used regularly on PP2 despite being so useless that he didn't score a single point.

He was one of the regular penalty killers in the second half of the season despite being ranked the 2nd worst by GA/60.

And there were always better options available: notably Sanheim on PP2; Laughton and Read on the PK.
 
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NYCFlyer

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Who's complaining about Lehtera playing over Leier on the PK? We're talking about Laughton. Hell, I bet Scotty could have come up with a point or two in 35 minutes of PP time if Hak wasn't force feeding it to a veteran slug.



He played 62 games when there was no reason for him to play more than 20-25 when multiple injuries struck.

He was used regularly on PP2 despite being so useless that he didn't score a single point.

He was one of the regular penalty killers in the second half of the season despite being ranked the 2nd worst by GA/60.

And there were always better options available: notably Sanheim on PP2; Laughton and Read on the PK.

You guys are still arguing over popping zits when you have gangrene. We have a bottom five goaltending situation, very weak bottom four D, very weak bottom 6 and still came in third in a division where the first two teams were the last two cup champs. No way Hak gets fired or should he despite some questionable decisions. As many said early last year, Hak is here for the length of his contract until we don't make the playoffs or our young players regress. Lappy on the other hand needs to be reassigned.

Hextall needs to get a better goalie, imo by far the most important offseason move to improve the team. Getting a rhd to play with Provorov would be my 2nd priority (not so easy) so Ghost can play with Myers and Sanhiem can grow on 3rd pair with with Amac/Gudas. Forwards are the least of our problems and easiest to solve.
 

captainpaxil

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Dec 2, 2008
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Again, there wasn't a rat's hair of difference between Lehtera, Leier, Weise and Read.
And the PK in the playoffs with Lehtera was one of the best units (SSS but hey, they did stop the best PP in the league).
So obsessing over his 10 minutes of TOI is simply a proxy for dislike of Hakstol, and not an educated critique.

The real problem was having these four as your "depth," not which two of these four was actually dressed for games.

And if you watched some of the AHL playoffs, it's obvious that guys like NAK and Vorobyev and MV weren't ready for prime time and wouldn't have been upgrades last season.

This is nobody's fault (well, Hextall dealing with Holmgren's mess) - depth players tend to be later round picks and they take 5-7 years to make the NHL for the most part (the few that do), and Hextall didn't inherit much, Laughton, Leier, Cousins, VdV, McGinn, Rinaldo. He's drafted a bunch of guys who'll provide this kind of depth in a couple years, just look at the Lehigh roster this year and next year.

And yes, Rinaldo and a dozen other forwards were worse than Lehtera last year.

This is one reason to be wary of trading prospects until the Lehigh lineup is packed with NHL capable players - injuries happen, and you want depth in your organization so you don't have to play scrubs.

The larger point being we need to focus on the bottom 6. When looking at the bottom of the roster marginal improvements can lead to big gains. Things like fit matter more. These players are also expected to contribute on special teams. I think reads ability to contribute when recalled put him clearly as the tallest dwarf in the circus and of the four you mentioned is the only one Not returning. However his spending most of the year in the ahl gives me faith that regardless of contract no spot is guaranteed.

I see the bottom 6 like this
Laughton x Simmonds
Raffl x x

With x being open for competition. Without adding any free agents that means leir weiss and lehtera will be in the thick of it with guys like vecchione nak and misha. Frankly if two of the latter three arent beating two of the previous i think thats a serious critique of hextalls talent evaluation at the pro level.
 
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Rebels57

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What's the deal with people being obsessed with Lehtera playing over guys like Leier, Golbourne, Vecchione?

Listen, I would rather see Leier and Vecchione play over him too, but who the hell cares in the end?

Seriously.

Does it change our team drastically either way? Will we all of a sudden have a good bottom 6 if one of them replaces Lehtera? Will we have made a deep playoff run? Would we be a top team?

If they're paying a guy a billion dollars to play and he's comparable to other players in the organization, I can understand wanting to play him instead of making kids play bottom minutes when they could get big minutes in the minors. Remember: you can almost never overcook a prospect, but you can undercook one.

It's just another one of those things that people who hate Hakstol (and to many degrees Hextall) cling onto. Now, I don't like Hak, but I can get over that with an improved roster this offseason. Using Lehtera's whopping 10:46 TOI/GP as a reason why Hextall is an idiot is just...really, really bad.

Summary: I don't like Lehtera there either, but he didn't prevent us or anyone else from doing something amazing this past season. We all know what it is: get through his contract (maybe even lucky enough to get a buyout this offseason) and we'll move on from him in exchange for a bonus 1st rounder this year. It's obscenely insignificant; then again, I'm very goal-oriented and I don't actively get weighed down by silly things like a 4th line player when we're not realistically competing for the Cup.

Or, and stay with me here, you give those minutes to a kid in the AHL that is not only a better hockey player which makes the team better, but has a chance to develop his game. At the same time, the organization gets to see what said player(s)have to give at the Pro Level?

Accepting the Flyers willingly using one of the worst forwards in the league when better options were available that also came with the other benefits I mentioned above, is some next level Apologizing.
 

Rebels57

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I’d wait and see what happens before bashing them about it then. Whether we like it or not, when a player is making more than 4.5 million a year, it’s hard to bury him for 2 full years. Now if you want to criticize taking him back in the Schenn trade, that’s a different argument, but it was necessary to get two first round picks.

If he’s playing this year as anything more than the 13th forward, then I’ll be on the same page.

I'll save a spot for you on Page # We're f***ed.
 

Rebels57

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Isn't that ideally how it should go, though?

A coach being able to decide who actually plays for the team seems ideal to me. Now, you can argue he's wrong of course, but GMs going with coaches' decisions to play people is a pretty normal thing.

The GM is responsible for the 23 man roster. The coach is then responsible for putting together the lineup based on those 23 men.
 

Rebels57

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It's like the offseason starts and people forget who our coach is.

For real.

This is the same coach that:

Ued Filppula as a 1C in back-to-back elimination games
Used both he and Lehtera on PK1 or PK2 for the majority of the season
Played Lehtera over Lindblom in the Playoffs

He is not going to suddenly "see the light."

f*** outta here. It's gonna more of the same nonsense next year.
 

JojoTheWhale

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May 22, 2008
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very weak bottom four D

They have 4 very good NHL Defensemen. If those 4 are deployed as such, some but certainly not all of this issue dissipates.

very weak bottom 6

Yes, but they compound the issue by continued overuse of certain players and interest in re-signing others.

and still came in third in a division where the first two teams were the last two cup champs. No way Hak gets fired or should he despite some questionable decisions. As many said early last year, Hak is here for the length of his contract until we don't make the playoffs or our young players regress.

To be clear, you're saying if the Flyers had gotten 3 less Points this year, the coach should be fired. Instead, he plays out his contract. No idea where to start with what's wrong with that whole thought process.

Forwards are the least of our problems and easiest to solve.

Yet they have a "very weak bottom 6" and are interested in keeping much of it.
 
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Curufinwe

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There's no excuse for a weak bottom 6 next season. The top 9 is already solid, and the 4th line hasn't had any additions from free agency or the AHL yet, and the Flyers have tons of cap space.

Giroux-Couturier-Konecny
Lindblom-Patrick-Voracek
Raffl-Laughton-Simmonds
Weal-Lehtera-Weise
 

JojoTheWhale

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There's no excuse for a weak bottom 6 next season. The top 9 is already solid, and the 4th line hasn't had any additions from free agency or the AHL yet, and the Flyers have tons of cap space

I still like the Neuvirth-Spezza idea you posted on the trade board if they're insistent upon having a vet C option. Dallas fans were all for it. His peak is long gone, but no term and a solid 30 pt C is a reasonable expectation. Definitely worried he'd get the Filppula treatment, though.
 
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