Help Me Settle This Argument! Havlat Vs. Gaborik - Who turned into the better player?

[Liquidrage*]

Did you not read my post? Havlat doesn't play with Alfredsson, Spezza, and Hossa. And he hasn't even played a game with Heatley. In the past, Havlat has played with guys like Bryan Smolinski and Shaun Van Allen. Are they any better than Walz? Or Brunette?

And I'm not denying that if Gaborik played in a more offensive system his numbers would be better. However, you can't blame the defensive system for his numbers declining every season, while Havlat's have been increasing.

Havlat picks up a lot of his points on the PP, much more so then Gaborik for example. And he's not playing with crap on the PP.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Havlat picks up a lot of his points on the PP, much more so then Gaborik for example. And he's not playing with crap on the PP.

Do you think that accounts for a 28 points differece?

 

[Mizral]

Never been much of a Havlat fan.

Gaborik on the other hand is a Peter Bondra for a new generation.

Gaborik in a walk.

 

[oil slick]

Do you think that accounts for a 28 points differece?

That - and the fact that any wild game I've seen has the opponents best defensmem playing against Gaborik, and their best defensive forward joined at the hip to him.

 

[Liquidrage*]

Do you think that accounts for a 28 points differece?

It's a part of it sure. What do you think it accounted for Gaborik scoring more points in the two yeas before that? Clearly he has to play against the other teams best more often, and he doesn't get to play on a PP unit like what Ottawa can put out on the ice.

Last year Gaborik started the year late with the contract holdout and it took him a while to catch back up. That, more then anything, is my guess why Havlat scored 28 more points last year.
But his "bad" year wasn't so bad as to scare me into thinking thats all he can do. And more importantly, he finished the year strong at a PPG over his last 25 games of the season.

 

[trentmccleary]

Last year Gaborik started the year late with the contract holdout and it took him a while to catch back up. That, more then anything, is my guess why Havlat scored 28 more points last year.

Why would that matter? Havlat also held out. He played 3 more games than Gaborik.

 

[Liquidrage*]

Why would that matter? Havlat also held out. He played 3 more games than Gaborik.

I would say it effected Gaborik more. He really seemed to start off slowly moreso then Havlat.

Based on that great sample of "one", if I were to believe both players were going to hold out at the start of every year, I'd probably lean towards Havlat a little more.

 

[trentmccleary]

How is a hold out really different from any amount of time off. Hell, Gaborik has had a whole year+ off of NHL hockey now. His game must've completely gone to crap by now.
Can we even be sure that he'll remember how to play if we give him summers off?

Perhaps Minnesota could sew reminders into the cuff of his jersey:

Step 1: Skate!
Step 2: Shoot!
Step 3: Rinse and Repeat

 

[Wally112pac]

How is a hold out really different from any amount of time off. Hell, Gaborik has had a whole year+ off of NHL hockey now. His game must've completely gone to crap by now.
Can we even be sure that he'll remember how to play if we give him summers off?

He was pretty good at the World Championships.

Anyone remember the nice backhand goal he scored on Brodeur?

I'm sure there's video of it somewhere.

 

[TaiMaiShu]

they are both great players but you have to see what teams they are on. Gaborick is playing for lemaire. another defensive team. gaborick i think is much better in terms of raw talent and ability. i watched him in the World Championships and he was amazing.

 

[Poochie_D]

extremely close... If i had to chose a player for MY team it would be Gaborik.

 

[Liquidrage*]

How is a hold out really different from any amount of time off. Hell, Gaborik has had a whole year+ off of NHL hockey now. His game must've completely gone to crap by now.
Can we even be sure that he'll remember how to play if we give him summers off?

Perhaps Minnesota could sew reminders into the cuff of his jersey:

Step 1: Skate!
Step 2: Shoot!
Step 3: Rinse and Repeat

I'm sorry. It must upset you that a vast majority of people are not chosing to worship Havlat in the special way that you do.

Get over it. Different things effect different people. Gaborik did not come back and play well at the start of the year. He got off to a slow start and I'd guess it was because of the time missed. Or, it could have just been a little slump, it happens. And, no it didn't seem to bother Havlat, that's great, I'm so happy for you.

If you had two players with a broken hand, one whose scoring dropped way down after breaking it, and another whose scoring stayed about the same, it doesn't mean the hand wasn't an issue with the 1st guy just because it didn't effect the second guy as much. Futhermore, in this case I don't know if Gaborik really was bothered that much by the holdout, I stated I was guessing based on how he came back looking a little rusty and by the end of the year was back to his old (young) self.

In the end, Havlat scored more then Gaborik last year by a decent margin. I still think Gaborik is a lot better player then Havlat.

 

[cc]

Gaborik easily. He came out big when it counted and that' s in the playoffs and it was his first year there.

 

[cc]

Did you not read my post? Havlat doesn't play with Alfredsson, Spezza, and Hossa. And he hasn't even played a game with Heatley. In the past, Havlat has played with guys like Bryan Smolinski and Shaun Van Allen. Are they any better than Walz? Or Brunette?

And I'm not denying that if Gaborik played in a more offensive system his numbers would be better. However, you can't blame the defensive system for his numbers declining every season, while Havlat's have been increasing.

you should also consider dmen as well. guys that can move the puck and set up plays just as well as linemates can.

 

[JayRice66]

I think it also needs to be mentioned that Minnesota plays more of a defensive game that ottawa. Gaborik is in the same spot as Legwand. I know Legwand isn't as good. But they both play on teams that don't allow them to show how good they really are.

 

[Clancy]

Gaborik is better offensively
Gaborik is better with his all around game. i'll take Gabby, but Havlat isn't too far behind

 

[trentmccleary]

I'm sorry. It must upset you that a vast majority of people are not chosing to worship Havlat in the special way that you do.

Get over it. Different things effect different people. Gaborik did not come back and play well at the start of the year. He got off to a slow start and I'd guess it was because of the time missed. Or, it could have just been a little slump, it happens. And, no it didn't seem to bother Havlat, that's great, I'm so happy for you.

If you had two players with a broken hand, one whose scoring dropped way down after breaking it, and another whose scoring stayed about the same, it doesn't mean the hand wasn't an issue with the 1st guy just because it didn't effect the second guy as much. Futhermore, in this case I don't know if Gaborik really was bothered that much by the holdout, I stated I was guessing based on how he came back looking a little rusty and by the end of the year was back to his old (young) self.

In the end, Havlat scored more then Gaborik last year by a decent margin. I still think Gaborik is a lot better player then Havlat.

I haven't made an argument for Havlat being better at all. Right now, I'd rate both about the same.
All you're proving is that Gaborik can't seem to handle certain forms of adversity. I still don't know why you even mentioned the hold outs as any sort of argument.

Threads like these have usually been about perception and I've jumped in a few long enough to try show that perception may not be truth.
It starts with:
- Canadians... they're always grittier and have more heart.
- the "C" ... it's like putting Superman's "S" on a player.
- being by far the best player on a team. It may be impressive, it may not be. Terry Yake was once the best offensive player on a team by far.
- defense hurts offense... not necessarily. Look at veterans who moved in and out of NJ for the past decade. Quite a few had their highest point total (within a 3-5 year span) while in NJ (Mogilny comes to mind).

We aren't talking about Mario Lemieux vs. Mike Eastwood in this thread. We're talking about two players with a couple years each in the league. The answer to this thread will be determined by them, not us.

 

[trentmccleary]

Gaborik is better offensively
Gaborik is better with his all around game. i'll take Gabby, but Havlat isn't too far behind

Havlat just put up a PPG season. Gaborik hasn't really come close to that yet.

 

[ceber]

In addition, Gaborik is going against the top pairing of teams he plays against. The same can't be said for Havlat. That's one point that has not been brought up yet.

IMO it's the most important factor by a mile when comparing the two teams. Style of play and linemates pale in comparison to whether or not the player is facing the opposition's top shutdown players or not.

 

[Randall Graves*]

Havlat has proven more, but Gaborik has more potential.

 

[Porn*]

gaborik>havlat

BUT... comparisons of this nature are impossible imho.

you've got to take into account teams, linemates, team styles, time on ice... etc...

all of which are in havlats favor.

 

[15theheatison*]

gaborik>havlat

BUT... comparisons of this nature are impossible imho.

you've got to take into account teams, linemates, team styles, time on ice... etc...

all of which are in havlats favor.

I might be wrong, but doesn't Gaborik get more ice-time? I agree with the rest of your post though.

 

[Porn*]

I might be wrong, but doesn't Gaborik get more ice-time? I agree with the rest of your post though.

probably... I just grouped it up.

 

[MePutPuckInNet]

There are players who put up good numbers while being terrible defensively. There are players who seem to do their best work when it doesn't matter. There are players who in order to score their points can't follow the teams system well.

Kovalchuk is an obvious example to use. You can see his transition in Atlanta as the coaches are trying to turn him from a pure numbers guy into a guy that does more to help his team win games by playing within the team, not himself, 4 other guys in the same color jersey. Yeah, it's great that he can score a crap load of goals. It will be even nicer when doing that doesn't often put his teamates in bad positions, doesn't lead to turnovers and counterattacks, etc. He's moving in that direction so it isn't a knock on him, he'll probably get there.

Like I said, winning 2-1 is better then losing 5-4. Scoring a big goal to tie the game or take a lead is better then scoring a late one in pond hockey where the game was already over. Being a type of players that your teams looks to and trusts and that can inspire your teamates is better then one who doesn't. Hockey's about scoring more points then the other team, not just seeing which team has the highest GFA at the end of the year.

Some players, and I think Gaborik is one of them, can score their points without costing their team anything in terms of winning. Gaborik seems to do that naturally, many of the hyped young players still need to learn to do that. A classic example is Elias. I consider him one of the top players in the game. He scores his points without hurting his team, in fact helping his team. He doesn't cheat here or there, or play selfishly, or put up a ton of meaningless points. He leads his team, he scores big goals, he plays within the team, not outside of the team.

Dude, I think you make some excellent observations with this post. It's not always about how many points....but, more often it's when they make them that is the key factor. Also, I very much agree about Elias - hopefully his health doesn't prevent him from continuing to be one of the most enjoyable players to watch in the NHL.

 

[Sens4Cup]

I'd have to pick Havlat over Gaborik for one major reason:
Consistency.

Both are very talented offensive players, both show their offensive brilliance often. Both have scored 30 goals in a season etc. etc.

But Havlat has been the player who tends to score with relative consistency. He'll also have the nights where he'll get a hat trick, but unlike Gaborik he'll produce points throughout the season, and tends not to have scoring slumps.

Gaborik on the other hand tends to produce hugely at times and then none at all at other times. In the Vancouver-Minnesota series he absolutely dominated, but disappeared for the Ducks series. In 2002-03 he was one of the top goal scorers for most of the season, before he disappeared for the last 25 games or so.

Havlat is a guy who shows up every night, and has produced better stats each season he's played. I expect this season that he'll get to 75-85 points with 35-40 goals in his increased role. Gaborik could either be a 100 point player this year or 50, he's just more of a crapshoot.