Help Me Settle This Argument! Havlat Vs. Gaborik - Who turned into the better player?

[Jag68Sid87]

It's extremely close, but I would take Gaborik by a hair.

By the way, someone mentioned Ruutu earlier and I think he fits this grouping as well. Although I think I'd take Ruutu over either Gaborik or Havlat. I think he's grittier and more well-rounded than either Gaby or Marty.

Good discussion.

 

[Vincent_TheGreat]

Gaborik is the better player!

 

[Lessy]

Gaborik by quite a bit.

 

[HF-Addict]

Havlat for me...but I'm East biased.

 

[oil slick]

Gaborik by a lot.

 

[Sting]

I would take Havlat, simply because Gaborik is the lone star on a team that hands him the puck all the time. He gets the ice time. Havlat was the 3rd right winger who's linemates were arguably worse at times than Gaborik.

So with that said, when Havlat is on a line with Spezza and Heatley, there's no question I think Havlat is going to not only produce more, but turn into the better player.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I would take Havlat, simply because Gaborik is the lone star on a team that hands him the puck all the time. He gets the ice time. Havlat was the 3rd right winger who's linemates were arguably worse at times than Gaborik.

I don't think you can make that argument but if you want to go there. Havlat was hidden behind Hossa and Alfredsson. The NHL checking pressure has never been on him, he's never been the main guy, probably doesn't face the same quality of players than Gaborik either. When Gaborik is on the ice, the other team put their best line or best checking line. When you face Ottawa, you do that to Alfredsson's and Hossa's lines. Havlat gets the easier assignment. I'm sure Havlat picks up quite a few points on the PP with Hossa, Alfredsson, Spezza and co.

By the way, they both got about the same ice time in 02-03. About 1 min and a half more for Gaborik in 03-04. Havlat actually got a tiny bit more ice time on the PP than Gaborik last season and more than half a minute more in 02-03. It's hard to say that Gaborik gets all the chances and Havlat is being screwed in Ottawa in light of this information.

So with that said, when Havlat is on a line with Spezza and Heatley, there's no question I think Havlat is going to not only produce more, but turn into the better player.

I think there's definately a debate. Anyway, are you sure they're going to play together ? Those players are all atrocious defensively.

I really like Havlat, really good player. But Gaborik is the better sniper, has better hockey sense, is better defensively, one of the fastest player in the league and a proven playoffs performer and leader. Gaborik's just insane. It's crazy how he's been able to produce at such a young age, getting so much attention, playing with so many crappy players under a strict defensive system and coach.

I still remember his playoffs performance with the wild 2 seasons ago. He was just dominant. Was a threat every time he was on the ice with Walz. On the other hand, Havlat's put quite the wizard act in the playoffs, and his only trick seemed to be disappearing. It's crazy to think that Gaborik has 2 more goals and only 4 less points in 23 less games than Havlat in the playoffs.

Simply put, I don't see how someone can pick Havlat. Gaborik's a much better goalscorer, better defensively, better playoffs performer, younger and has proven he can produce with crappy linemates or not facing the best the other team has to offer. Gaborik, by a fair margin.

But that's no slight on Havlat who's a very good player himself. Gaborik's just special though.

 

[Liquidrage*]

Gaborik's a guy that's always going under the radar here.

Gaborik's the young player I'd want the most on my team over basically any other young player in the NHL. Because he can produce while playing winning hockey. People look too much at raw totals. You win games by scoring more then the other team. A 2-1 win is better then a 5-4 loss. Gaborik is the type of player to me that actually helps his team win games, as opposed to a lot of young players that get hyped here that to me put up great numbers while not helping or even hurting their teams chances of winning.

 

[hossua34]

Gaborik is the type of player to me that actually helps his team win games, as opposed to a lot of young players that get hyped here that to me put up great numbers while not helping or even hurting their teams chances of winning.

How can you not help your team's chance of winning by putting up numbers???? Are you saying that Gaborik is more clutch?

 

[incawg]

Gaborik

 

[trentmccleary]

when Havlat is on a line with Spezza and Heatley

Murray has mentioned a Spezza-Heatley pairing and Havlat-Smoke-Alfie line-up to start.

Both Havlat and Gaborik held out in 03-04, upon returning Havlat gained strength as the season went on and caught fire after New Years. Gaborik sucked.
Discuss...

(I don't have a real stake in this argument. But it seemed to be getting a little stale and I hadn't seen this posted yet.)

 

[Cole Caulifield]

How can you not help your team's chance of winning by putting up numbers???? Are you saying that Gaborik is more clutch?

By being poor defensively, by taking unnecessary risks to get points when there are more chances to get burned than to score.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Murray has mentioned a Spezza-Heatley pairing and Havlat-Smoke-Alfie line-up to start.

Both Havlat and Gaborik held out in 03-04, upon returning Havlat gained strength as the season went on and caught fire after New Years. Gaborik sucked.
Discuss...

(I don't have a real stake in this argument. But it seemed to be getting a little stale and I hadn't seen this posted yet.)

Yes that's an interesting point and I've been wondering why Havlat is one of the only player in the past few years to have a good season despite the fact he's missed camp and a part of the season. Almost all players go through an awful year when they hold out and come back once the season has started. Havlat is really the exception to the rule.

But it means little in the grand scheme of things because it's not like they're going to hold out all their career and miss the beginning of the season. Last season was abnormal for Gaborik.

 

[Liquidrage*]

How can you not help your team's chance of winning by putting up numbers???? Are you saying that Gaborik is more clutch?

Because it's possible, I know this seems weird but I assure you this is true, that while you're on the ice the other team can score as well.

4 ?'s for an obvious answer? Come on.

There are players who put up good numbers while being terrible defensively. There are players who seem to do their best work when it doesn't matter. There are players who in order to score their points can't follow the teams system well.

Kovalchuk is an obvious example to use. You can see his transition in Atlanta as the coaches are trying to turn him from a pure numbers guy into a guy that does more to help his team win games by playing within the team, not himself, 4 other guys in the same color jersey. Yeah, it's great that he can score a crap load of goals. It will be even nicer when doing that doesn't often put his teamates in bad positions, doesn't lead to turnovers and counterattacks, etc. He's moving in that direction so it isn't a knock on him, he'll probably get there.

Like I said, winning 2-1 is better then losing 5-4. Scoring a big goal to tie the game or take a lead is better then scoring a late one in pond hockey where the game was already over. Being a type of players that your teams looks to and trusts and that can inspire your teamates is better then one who doesn't. Hockey's about scoring more points then the other team, not just seeing which team has the highest GFA at the end of the year.

Some players, and I think Gaborik is one of them, can score their points without costing their team anything in terms of winning. Gaborik seems to do that naturally, many of the hyped young players still need to learn to do that. A classic example is Elias. I consider him one of the top players in the game. He scores his points without hurting his team, in fact helping his team. He doesn't cheat here or there, or play selfishly, or put up a ton of meaningless points. He leads his team, he scores big goals, he plays within the team, not outside of the team.

 

[ftyutin51]

Don't want to get into the whole debate, but just take a small part of what everybody else said and I agree that MariAn Gaborik is the better player.

 

[Guy Caballero]

Gaborik by a lot.

 

[Chris2004]

I think Gaborik is the better player. He plays in such a defensive system that he just isn't able to shine as much as he is capable of.

Just my opinion.

I would agree with that. Gabby has ridiculous natural skill, plus a developing two way game.

 

[Sting]

I don't know..we'll see I guess. Whether Havlat plays with Alfy/Smoke or Spezza/Heatley it doesn't matter really...as long as he's not with Chris Neil or some other 3rd/4th line player.

When I saw the two compete in 03/04, Gaborik just looked lost at some points of the season, and Havlat really took off. Near the end of the season I really thought he was the best player on Ottawa. But like I said, we'll see. I've always thought this comparison was based highly on their situations.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I'm gonna be one of the few people who'll say Havlat.

First off, I hate when people use the argument that Ottawa is a better team with better players against Havlat. Yes he played on the same team as Hossa and Alfredsson, but he never played with those players other than on the PP. He was playing with guys like Smolinski, Van Allen and Schaefer. Not exactly offensive dynamos.
Also, while Gaborik had to play in a defensive system, so did Havlat. Not to the degree of Minnesota, but Jacques Martin didn't exactly let his players roam freely. Havlat had to backcheck and play defense, otherwise he'd be benched.

If you look at their numbers, Havlat has produced more points in less games. But that isn't the most telling stat. Since 01/02, Havlat's offensive numbers increased each year to the point where he was a PPG player last season. Since 01/02, Marian Gaborik's stats have decreased each season to the point where he only notched just 40 points in 65 games last season.

So right now, I'd take Havlat. In the future? Who knows.

 

[Bruins4Ever]

Gaborik by far. Havlat is good, but if he played in the defensive system Minnesota has set up, he'd be lucky to get 0.5 ppg rather than the 1 ppg he got in Ottawa. Let Gaborik loose in offensive system, he'd be a 90+ point player.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

I'm gonna be one of the few people who'll say Havlat.

First off, I hate when people use the argument that Ottawa is a better team with better players against Havlat. Yes he played on the same team as Hossa and Alfredsson, but he never played with those players other than on the PP. He was playing with guys like Smolinski, Van Allen and Schaefer. Not exactly offensive dynamos.
Also, while Gaborik had to play in a defensive system, so did Havlat. Not to the degree of Minnesota, but Jacques Martin didn't exactly let his players roam freely. Havlat had to backcheck and play defense, otherwise he'd be benched.

If you look at their numbers, Havlat has produced more points in less games. But that isn't the most telling stat. Since 01/02, Havlat's offensive numbers increased each year to the point where he was a PPG player last season. Since 01/02, Marian Gaborik's stats have decreased each season to the point where he only notched just 40 points in 65 games last season.

So right now, I'd take Havlat. In the future? Who knows.

Well it's true who do you expect to set-up Gaborik in Minnesota, Wes Walz?

While you guys got Alfredsson, Spezza, Heatley, Redden, Chara and other dangerous players to set him up.

I would like to see how good Havlat would be if he was in Minnesota he'd obviously produce a lot less now if Gaborik played for Ottawa then his numbers would sky-rocket.

 

[habs_24x]

today, Gaborik
near future, Havlat

 

[Leaf the Lucky]

Garborik is a better player for sure. Most of you mentioned that both Ottawa and Minnesota play a defense-oriented system but MInnesota concentrates far more in their own zone due to their lack of firepower. In addition, Gaborik is going against the top pairing of teams he plays against. The same can't be said for Havlat. That's one point that has not been brought up yet.

 

[bert]

Gaborik by a lot.

While I agree with Gaborik being better (barely) I dont think there is any reasonable argument in the world to justify an answere like this.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Well it's true who do you expect to set-up Gaborik in Minnesota, Wes Walz?

While you guys got Alfredsson, Spezza, Heatley, Redden, Chara and other dangerous players to set him up.

I would like to see how good Havlat would be if he was in Minnesota he'd obviously produce a lot less now if Gaborik played for Ottawa then his numbers would sky-rocket.

Did you not read my post? Havlat doesn't play with Alfredsson, Spezza, and Hossa. And he hasn't even played a game with Heatley. In the past, Havlat has played with guys like Bryan Smolinski and Shaun Van Allen. Are they any better than Walz? Or Brunette?

And I'm not denying that if Gaborik played in a more offensive system his numbers would be better. However, you can't blame the defensive system for his numbers declining every season, while Havlat's have been increasing.