Heinola vs Bjornfot

[BKarchitect]

Two extremely intelligent and precocious defenders - both still only 19 amazingly (at least for another month or two). Both got NHL games as 18 year-old last season.

Heinola excelled in Liiga during the "pre-season", has appeared in one game this year and is marinating in the AHL at the moment (where he just scored 2 goals including the OT winner in a recent game).

Bjornfot stayed in game shape in the SHL and has recently broken through into the Kings' defensive core to rave reviews.

Both have poise that belies there years - Heinola seems a more skilled as a playmaker in the offensive zone while Bjornfot has a thicker, more athletic build to handle the rough stuff. Both have the mental game and lateral mobility and edgework to excel over all 200' of ice even if neither is spectacularly flashy.

Who do you take moving forward, the Finn or the Swede?

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[Pavel Buchnevich]

Bjornfot, but I don’t see high upside for either.

 

[snowkiddin]

Bjornfot, but I don’t see high upside for either.

Interesting take. I don’t know much about Bjornfot, admittedly so, but all signs point to Ville being a solid top 4 puck-moving defender in the NHL with the chance to become a top 2. What don’t you see in him?

 

[Connor McConnor]

I like Bjornfot a lot but not more than Heinola.

 

[voxel]

Bjornfot, but I don’t see high upside for either.

This.

I vaguely remember Heinola in his stint on the Jets and watched Bjornfot on the Reign. Both need to take large developmental leaps to be anything more than middle-pair at best.

 

[Connor McConnor]

This.

I vaguely remember Heinola in his stint on the Jets and watched Bjornfot on the Reign. Both need to take large developmental leaps to be anything more than middle-pair at best.

So pretty much 95% of the defenseman in the NHL ever? They are 19 years old. Not really the point of this poll.

Everyone knows D-men take longer to development, you should be looking at skillset and projecting. We drafted Nurse in the top 10 and it took till his age 26 season to be considered "top pair".

 

[voxel]

So pretty much 95% of the defenseman in the NHL ever? Not really the point of this poll.

Everyone knows D-men take longer to development, you should be looking at skillset and projecting. We drafted Nurse in the top 10 and it took till his age 26 season to be considered "top pair".

Most D actually bust. I do see these two being bottom-pair tweener types.

I forgot to vote. Heniola.

 

[Connor McConnor]

Most D actually bust. I do see these two being bottom-pair tweener types.

I forgot to vote. Heniola.

To each is there own but I can tell you haven't watched much of either. You stated NHL starts for one and a bad AHL team for the other while the kid put up almost 0.5 PPG and was solid defensively in his first NA professional season. Instead of embarrassing yourself with horrible takes, don't get involved in players you don't know

 

[voxel]

To each is there own but I can tell you haven't watched much of either. You stated NHL starts for one and a bad AHL team for the other while the kid put up almost 0.5 PPG and was solid defensively in his first NA professional season. Instead of embarrassing yourself with horrible takes, don't get involved in players you don't know

They are... but in general I'm not a fan of prospects without some sort of elite ability and not exactly big nor fast either.

An 18 year like Drysdale will smoke both of them stats wise in the AHL.

A player like Nurse (who you mentioned before) with his mediocre offensive IQ (his goals this season have mostly been fluky too) excels because of his skating and size/nastiness.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Interesting take. I don’t know much about Bjornfot, admittedly so, but all signs point to Ville being a solid top 4 puck-moving defender in the NHL with the chance to become a top 2. What don’t you see in him?

I think second pairing is possible. I don’t think he’s a good skater, but I think his skating may be better than I initially thought. Obviously he lacks in size and I don’t think he’s dynamic. It’s hard to be top four lacking in size and skating and not being incredibly dynamic. But it’s been done before, and he may be a better skater than I initially thought.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Bjornfot is a good 2nd pairing defenseman right this moment.

It remains to be seen if he has the upside to stick as a complementary #2--I know the knock is he doesn't do any one thing "excellent" but i'd argue his brain is up there and the guy is an absolute shot blocking play killing savant. He's a Hjalmarsson knock off.

Before anyone says this is a hot streak this isn't a new development--Doughty and Kopitar were practically begging for him to stay up after last year's training camp and he just went down and dominated in the AHL instead. Now he's back and even better.

 

[Connor McConnor]

I think second pairing is possible. I don’t think he’s a good skater, but I think his skating may be better than I initially thought. Obviously he lacks in size and I don’t think he’s dynamic. It’s hard to be top four lacking in size and skating and not being incredibly dynamic. But it’s been done before, and he may be a better skater than I initially thought.

Yeah another terrible take but I’m not surprised based on your history. Kid is 19 playing very well in a middle pairing already. Do you know how rare that is? There have been plenty of top end dmen that lacked elite traits, this kid is good at everything but has an elite mind.

Ps the fact you said he’s not a good skater proves your lack of knowledge, not surprised

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Yeah another terrible take but I’m not surprised based on your history. Kid is 19 playing very well in a middle pairing already. Do you know how rare that is? There have been plenty of top end dmen that lacked elite traits, this kid is good at everything but has an elite mind.

Ps the fact you said he’s not a good skater proves your lack of knowledge, not surprised

I think you may be lost. He's played one game this season.

A thoroughly bizarre post on your part. And you were rude for no reason.

 

[voxel]

Bjornfot is a good 2nd pairing defenseman right this moment.

It remains to be seen if he has the upside to stick as a complementary #2--I know the knock is he doesn't do any one thing "excellent" but i'd argue his brain is up there and the guy is an absolute shot blocking play killing savant. He's a Hjalmarsson knock off.

Before anyone says this is a hot streak this isn't a new development--Doughty and Kopitar were practically begging for him to stay up after last year's training camp and he just went down and dominated in the AHL instead. Now he's back and even better.

It's not about an hot streak.. it's about forcing young players into a lineup. 18 year old Ramus Sandin looked fantastic for the Marlies (way better than the other hyped D man on his team lilj something) but the Leafs didn't rush him into the NHL. You'd want him to spend some time in the AHL to develop his offense rather than be a "Hjalmarsson knock off"

I don't recall Bjornfot dominating the AHL at all. The AHL D that stuck out last season when I watched the Pacific Division were Capobianco and vets like Djoos/Wideman/Brandon Davidson. Frk was a beast as a forward and so was Comtois/Dube/Czarnik/Phillips(lots of Heat forwards to be honest).

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

It's not about an hot streak.. it's about forcing young players into a lineup. 18 year old Ramus Sandin looked fantastic for the Marlies (way better than the other hyped D man on his team lilj something) but the Leafs didn't rush him into the NHL. You'd want him to spend some time in the AHL to develop his offense rather than be a "Hjalmarsson knock off"

I don't recall Bjornfot dominating the AHL at all. The AHL D that stuck out last season when I watched the Pacific Division were Capobianco and vets like Djoos/Wideman/Brandon Davidson. Frk was a beast as a forward and so was Comtois/Dube/Czarnik/Phillips(lots of Heat forwards to be honest).

He's not at all being 'forced' into the NHL, he's earned his spot. Are we talking about the same player here? Kings could easily have blocked him with Clague or Maatta or several other guys but instead made the decision to burn a year of his ELC.

Sometimes a guy is what he is and more offense isn't just going to materialize with more AHL time. The guy hasn't been a big scorer at any level, at best he's on PP2 in the NHL. He's a well rounded player but more AHL time wasn't going to do much more.

He had 19 points in 44 games playing the top pairing all situations role and ended a +13 leading the team on a bad-but-not-quite-last team that was -32. (to help contextualize that, current (injured) drew doughty partner mikey anderson was -10 and clague was -14 on the same team).

I'm not sure what your expectations are for this kid that he's not meeting. And he doesn't 'stick out' so that's kind of a shit metric for measuring his value frankly.

 

[snowkiddin]

I think second pairing is possible. I don’t think he’s a good skater, but I think his skating may be better than I initially thought. Obviously he lacks in size and I don’t think he’s dynamic. It’s hard to be top four lacking in size and skating and not being incredibly dynamic. But it’s been done before, and he may be a better skater than I initially thought.

Heinola is a terrific skater.

He lacks in size and physicality, and that’s one thing he’ll have to overcome to reach the next level but his hockey IQ is very high. He’s got good offensive instincts, can pass well and has an underrated shot. He’s also very, very solid defensively.

 

[voxel]

He's not at all being 'forced' into the NHL, he's earned his spot. Are we talking about the same player here? Kings could easily have blocked him with Clague or Maatta or several other guys but instead made the decision to burn a year of his ELC.

Sometimes a guy is what he is and more offense isn't just going to materialize with more AHL time. The guy hasn't been a big scorer at any level, at best he's on PP2 in the NHL. He's a well rounded player but more AHL time wasn't going to do much more.

He had 19 points in 44 games playing the top pairing all situations role and ended a +13 leading the team on a bad-but-not-quite-last team that was -32. (to help contextualize that, current (injured) drew doughty partner mikey anderson was -10 and clague was -14 on the same team).

I'm not sure what your expectations are for this kid that he's not meeting. And he doesn't 'stick out' so that's kind of a shit metric for measuring his value frankly.

I argue top-pair D should be two-way minute munchers and the best place to learn how to play on the PP or PK is in the AHL. Oilers somehow converted an undersized offensive D-man in Ethan Bear to play all minutes in the NHL and I don’t think that happens without significant AHL time.

I don’t recall what role Bjornfot played on the Reign last season but I doubt it was top pair because Clague and LaDue were names that stuck out to me. Plus minus is deceptive because second pair in the AHL can feast on weaker comps. If you ranked last season Condors D by their plus minus I’d laugh... that a shit metric.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I argue top-pair D should be two-way minute munchers and the best place to learn how to play on the PP or PK is in the AHL. Oilers somehow converted an undersized offensive D-man in Ethan Bear to play all minutes in the NHL and I don’t think that happens without significant AHL time.

I don’t recall what role Bjornfot played on the Reign last season but I doubt it was top pair because Clague and LaDue were names that stuck out to me. Plus minus is deceptive because second pair in the AHL can feast on weaker comps. If you ranked last season Condors D by their plus minus I’d laugh... that a shit metric.

So you don't recall him dominating, you don't recall what role he played, and other names stuck out to you more, but when I present other information and statistics you're trying to fight it...what's really your issue with TB? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to drive home on him. Edit: oh, I see. Looking above, you think he's bottom pairing at best. Yeah, unfortunately, you're already wrong, no wonder you're digging in so hard, you have no clue about this player.

"Special" Bjornfot continues to grow in rookie season, thriving on pair with LaDue - LA Kings Insider re: playing the tough minutes.

He does play all situation minutes. I'm just saying no amount of AHL time is going to turn someone into a PP1 QB if they're not that guy. Not being on PP1 doesn't mean you're not a fantastic player and/or a top-4 dman.

 

[voxel]

So you don't recall him dominating, you don't recall what role he played, and other names stuck out to you more, but when I present other information and statistics you're trying to fight it...what's really your issue with TB? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to drive home on him.

He does play all those minutes. I'm just saying no amount of AHL time is going to turn someone into a PP1 QB if they're not that guy.

The problem is AHL doesn’t track time on ice. And nobody keeps advanced stats for the league that I know of. I watch the Condors so I know who plays on the top pair. But against opponents and their lineups... it’s all by memory. Stockton and Tucson had the elite AHL teams. Condors were offensively inept but had good D and terrible goaltending. The Reign were terribad except for Cal Petersen and Martin Frk who could score at will but was slow as a slug. This year the Reign are vastly better and dominating but not winning games.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Heinola is a terrific skater.

He lacks in size and physicality, and that’s one thing he’ll have to overcome to reach the next level but his hockey IQ is very high. He’s got good offensive instincts, can pass well and has an underrated shot. He’s also very, very solid defensively.

I think you are overselling his skating. It’s deceptive, likely passable, but at his size, you’d like it to be better to be an impact player. He’s not going to be leading the rush or creating zone entries with his skating, in my opinion.

But I do like his hockey sense. I’m a little skeptical about the tools being top four, but his tools may play up to his overall hockey instincts. We’ll have to see. I’m skeptical, but could be wrong.

 

[snowkiddin]

I think you are overselling his skating. It’s deceptive, likely passable, but at his size, you’d like it to be better to be an impact player. He’s not going to be leading the rush or creating zone entries with his skating, in my opinion.

But I do like his hockey sense. I’m a little skeptical about the tools being top four, but his tools may play up to his overall hockey instincts. We’ll have to see. I’m skeptical, but could be wrong.

His first step and top-end speed, right now, are merely above-average and not high-end. This, of course, can change.

Right now, he’s got fantastic mobility. His agility and pivots are very, very good. He’s got great edge work and his high IQ puts him in a position, often enough, where he doesn’t have to rely on elite speed to win races to the puck or to skate out of the zone.

At worst, Heinola is an above-average skater with all around good mobility — his skating isn’t poor enough that it’s gonna hurt him in the NHL. The big thing he will have to focus on, however, is bulking up because I think he is still too small for full-time NHL duty.

 

[Ignite111]

Yeah another terrible take but I’m not surprised based on your history. Kid is 19 playing very well in a middle pairing already. Do you know how rare that is? There have been plenty of top end dmen that lacked elite traits, this kid is good at everything but has an elite mind.

Ps the fact you said he’s not a good skater proves your lack of knowledge, not surprised

This is a losing battle. Being part of the awful Trouba trade buch is certainly not going to give Heinola any credit on his ability / upside.

I haven’t watched him but from what I have read on here everyone has been saying he’s a good skater no?

 

[Frolov 6'3]

I dont know much about Heinola but he looks to be a better offensive player than Tobias.

Björnfot labeling as a possible bottom-pair tweener who needs to improve drastically to be anything more than a middle pair defenseman, is an interesting take to say at least...

Anything is still possible but with his skating, defense, hockey sense....I highly doubt that he has to improve a lot. Middle pair defenseman is excellent.

 

[surixon]

I think second pairing is possible. I don’t think he’s a good skater, but I think his skating may be better than I initially thought. Obviously he lacks in size and I don’t think he’s dynamic. It’s hard to be top four lacking in size and skating and not being incredibly dynamic. But it’s been done before, and he may be a better skater than I initially thought.

It seems everyone has this misconception on Ville's skating. He is a very good skater with real good agility. He doesn't have elite top speed which is where I think people get a bit too caught up on.

He is sound defensively and an extremely gifted passer.

He doesn't have a plus shot and I don't see him being super dynamic offensively but I think the probability is pretty good that he will be a solid two way second pairing puck moving dmen in the Spurgeon type of mold.