He said, he said. So who is lying?

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by hockeymistress, Feb 22, 2005.

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  1. hockeymistress

    hockeymistress Registered User

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    Goodenow's response of Bettman's accusation that the Saturday debacle was all staged by the Union:

    "Regarding Gary's portrayal of the events of last week, I will make the following four points:

    "One - Gary claims he heard that we wanted to have a meeting and talk to them. That is totally false - the League cancelled the season Wednesday, and on Thursday night, Gary and Bill Daly separately called Trevor Linden after 11 p.m. EST and invited Trevor and the NHLPA to come to New York for a meeting.

    "Two - Friday morning, when arrangements for the League-requested meeting were being coordinated, Bill advised Trevor that Gary would not be attending on behalf of the League. As a result, I also did not attend.

    "Three - There was never a suggestion by the NHLPA that we were making an offer. Our presence in New York only occurred because of the League's request to meet.

    "Four - As for Gary's comments that we came to New York with the purpose of conducting a media campaign, that's just erroneous and the facts prove this to be the case. When Trevor, Vincent Damphousse and Ted Saskin met with the media at the St. Regis Hotel they actually met in a room that had been reserved and fully set up by the League for their own media conference. The room was left vacant when the League attendees slipped out of the hotel after they decided not to address the media after the conclusion of the meeting they called. The hotel then offered us the use of this room to accommodate the media stranded outside on the sidewalk.

    "It is unfortunate that Gary Bettman would publicly engage in this type of false characterization of events that he himself set in motion last Thursday."


    It seems like an interesting fact to confirm is WHO arranged for the room to be set up for the press conference? Who paid for that through the hotel -- The NHL or the NHLPA? Whoever did was the party that expected something to come out of it.

    Who do you believe?



    http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=115726&hubName=nhl

    H.
     
  2. Reilly311

    Reilly311 Guest

    who cares, all I know is there's no hockey.
     
  3. sakicisstupid

    sakicisstupid Registered User

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    I care. I want to know who got everyone's hopes up! Although I'm anti-owner to some extent, I'd have to concur with Bettman. The PA set everyone up to position the NHL in the uncompromising predicament of potentially killing our great hopes for a season twice in a week. The PA's antics disgust me. This league is a joke. There shouldn't be this much anomisity allowed between the owners and players. A pox on both their houses for hurting the fans and using the media as a tool to blame the other side for the NHL's problems. I hope for an even bigger plague for the owners who don't want significant revenue sharing and for those (Wirtz and Jacobs specifically) posing as the poor and being such hardliners when they clearly have the assets to survive under a 49 mill cap.
     
  4. sunb

    sunb Registered User

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    Maybe both are telling the truth?

    If Lemieux started, the NHLPA could be considering him an owner while the NHL would be considering him a player.
     
  5. skolgoar

    skolgoar Registered User

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    Neither person is lying. However, Goodenow conveniently omits the part where Linden, Doan, Gretzky and Lemieux talk in the day between the cancellation and the NHL requesting a meeting. The players talk Gretz and Mario into convincing the NHL that there is a deal to be made and get the NHL to call the meeting - after all, if the players are going behind Goodenow's back, they can't expect him to call the meeting.
     
  6. Jarqui

    Jarqui Registered User

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    I think the players had to have set this meeting up. Whether it was the PA negotiating body or a renegade group, I'm not sure.
     
  7. Riddarn

    Riddarn 1980-2011

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    I agree with this. Bettman never called in Gretzky and Lemieux before this, why were they present? Because they were the instrument with which the PA could convince the NHL that they were making a serious offer. After all, why should the owners hang out two of their own, and the two most known athletes of the sport to boot, for public ridicule when they just had cancelled the season?
     
  8. me2

    me2 Calling out the crap

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    We know the NHL coordinated the meeting, so of course they would have called Linden. So who called the NHL telling them the NHLPA wanted to deal? Players on their own? Players under orders? Players through owners? Santa?


    Not from the NHLPA. So who sent the rumour to the NHL? Players acting on their own? Players acting under orders? The media after a night on LSD?

    Its what they don't say that is just as important as what he do.

    (A)The NHL coordinated the meeting and booked the rooms therefore (B) it couldn't have been a PR stunt.

    A is not related to B. Nice sleight of hand though. Goodenow is gone by the time anyone works that out. Does that mean he's lying about the PR stunt? I have no idea, it might not have been a PR stunt, it might have been a PR stunt. Whatever, whoever booked the rooms is irrelevant.

    Based on what I can piece together the NHL believed it was to meet the NHLPA. The NHL arranged all of the details, hotel, coordinated the meeting. The NHLPA could have asked the NHL for a meeting, tell the NHL that they'll come to NY and then asked the NHL arrange of the meeting details, send them the details.

    The NHLPA could then say with a straight face "The NHL arranged the meeting, and sent us the details of where and when to meet."

    Bettman and Goodenow are smart lawyers. They can basically tell the exact opposite and both be technically correct.

    Nobody. I can't read the reptiles emotions.
     
  9. Isles72

    Isles72 Registered User

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    mike brophy , who broke the story friday night said he heard it from an impeccable source that a deal was done and it centered around a 45 mil cap .

    he didnt reveal his source , but he admitted it was a player
     
  10. PecaFan

    PecaFan Registered User

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    Nobody's lying. Goodenow isn't really saying anything different than Gary.

    Point one just confirms exactly what Gary said. The NHL heard that players wanted a meeting, so they called. Point two also confirms. Gary said that some expressed that the top guys shouldn't be there. So they let the PA know that Gary wouldn't be there.

    Point three just appears to be equivocation. Perhaps the NHLPA didn't officially express an offer would be made, but it was certainly being discussed as a possibility by players and others.

    Point four is irrelevant. So they used a room the NHL had set up. If that hadn't been available, they would have used a different room. Means nothing, proofs nothing.
     
  11. Weary

    Weary Registered User

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    In the interview Gary Bettman stated that the fact that the NHLPA had a room reserved for a press conference showed that he had been "set up." His charges carry a lot less weight if that room was reserved by the NHL. It was his only independently verifiable evidence.
     
  12. SENSible1*

    SENSible1* Guest

    Who had the most to gain by setting up this farce and then pulling out the rug?

    Answer that question and you'll know which side pulled a fast one.
     
  13. bcrt2000

    bcrt2000 Registered User

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    Its interesting that Eklund (yeah yeah I know) and Alan Hahn both stated what Gary Bettman said BEFORE he said it
     
  14. futurcorerock

    futurcorerock Registered User

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    I'll answer it:

    NHLPA's public image. Puts heat on the owners because the players showed compassion for wanting to save the season

    Too bad it's being debunked by THN, Wayne Gretzky, and Gary Bettman.

    So, Bob... are the media, a living legend, and the commish lying at the same time?
     
  15. JoeLH

    JoeLH Registered User

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    Once again, Goodenow seems to make a very poor job. What he said is not very convincing ...
     
  16. GKJ

    GKJ Global Moderator

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    As a pro-PA guy, I will admit, I beleive Bettman more than I beleive Goodenow in this. If Bettman wasn't such a idiot though, he would have seen this.


    But what happened to all the talk that Gretzky and Lemieux were the ones behind getting the meeting to happen. NO ONE is mentioning this and it was almost widely confirmed by everyone (including TSN) that they were the driving force behind having the meeting happened after they talked with each other on Wednesday night.
     
  17. futurcorerock

    futurcorerock Registered User

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    Gretzky said in that Larry Brooks article that he was contacted by the NHLPA to come in to the meeting.

    I guess you could infer from that scenario that Wayne didnt have his hand in this car crash. He was just there to witness the execution.
     
  18. ladybugblue

    ladybugblue Registered User

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    I think what happened was this...some players wanted to make another offer and were working behind the scenes with owners on what might work. I don't doubt this happened as they were so many different sources indicating this. How they got the meeting I don't know but it could easily been the NHL hearing these rumors and trying to find out what was going on. Regardless I think the confirmations that the media got on Friday were all from players and they wanted a deal and were overly optimistic. I don't think it was done on purpose as a set up like Bettman is suggesting...I just think the players that wanted a new deal didn't communicate it to the right people or the negotiating committee decided not to offer a new deal. However, I don't think the NHL didn't arrange the Press conference...they seen the rumors and reports and thought a deal was to be made...I don't think both sides were excited with the thought a deal could be done.

    This has been draining on both sides I just think too many people jumped the gun and didn't communicate properly...If the NHLPA did do this on purpose it didn't work and will ultimately backfire as the truth always comes out. I hope it was just a misunderstanding.
     
  19. GKJ

    GKJ Global Moderator

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    OK, well then I just missed that.
     
  20. dakota

    dakota Registered User

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    Goodenow is such a whiner... he should not have skipped his kindergarten class so he could have gotten all this out of his system back then... how unprofessional does this guy have to get before the hockey players see this??
     
  21. tantalum

    tantalum Registered User

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    My personal belief having read some and listened to various things is this:

    On Thursday Daly did indeed call Linden to keep lines of communication open. He may have been told through the grapevine that the union might be prepared to come down to a lower number and wanted to open up the communication lines again. They extended the olive branch for the players to join them at the table and essentially set the players up to be heroes, given some players were quite vocal in being given some sort of bone. There is no doubt the players requested Linden and Mario be there. It is very reasonable to expect the league would do this to promote trust between the two sides...after all why would Gretzky and Mario lie to those they are very close to. It may be that Gretzky and Mario let it known that they could work at a slightly elevated cap or that they were willing to discuss such things. There is no question in my mind the leak came from the players side...the hockey news apparently confirmed it with two independent player sources before releasing it. There is no question in my mind that Gretzky was expecting some sort of discussion about cap numbers/financials of the league based on his comments. IN PA stooge Brooks own column he actually uses some direct quotes and named sources. IN the article Gretzky is quoted as saying he took Linden and Damphouse aside and inquired as to how they could narrow the gap. There is no question that Gretzky and Lemieux were there for those cap discussions and to alleviate player concerns indealing with ownership (at the players request and league blessing). He was stonewalled immediately because the union wanted to talk about other things instead. From mearly all accounts the union controlled the meeting agenda...peculiar for a union that supposedly was simply invited to listen and receive a new proposal from the the league.

    Goodenow's first point: Daly invited the union. Certainly true and the NHL doesn't deny this. But why was it done? The leagues view makes more sense given the public dissension and dissatisfaction within the union when they finally accepted the cap and then couldn't close the deal. It makes quite a bit of sense the back channel communication was there for the league to reach out. It doesn't make a bunch of sense for the league to reach out for no reason or to embarrass the PA...they haven't done anything in the entire negotiation to embarass the PA. NOr would they risk the PR war they were winning.

    Goodenows second point: Bill advised Trevor that Gary wouldn't attend so I didn't thing. Who cares? It is irrelevant and if that is one of a few things in the nearly 30 minute interview that is a complete lie that in itelf is telling. Based on the players attitudes towards Bettman it doesn't matter if the PA requested he not be present or if he removed himself from the room.

    Goodenows third point: the league was to make an offer. That's what this whole thing is about. It makes little sense from the leagues point of view to do that at that time...after cancelling the season and apparently having the union in a bit of disarray. Based on Gretzky's and Mario's comments I really think they were expecting the PA to make an offer or discuss the cap. I find it impossible to believe the league would intentiaonally misinform two people who were in essence going to forming a part of their own negotiating committee that day. Bettman is a lot of things but completely incompetent is not one of them. Gretzky and LEmieux would have been fully briefed.

    Goodenows fourth point: they didn't do it to conduct a publicity campaign. Well they could have fooled me. It is not really relevant if the NHL rented the room...they may have but they also released it. It was offered to the PA...they didn't have to accept it. They took full advantage of the media when they didn't need to. They could slipped out quietly as well. Instead they took the opportunity to hammer the league instead of taking the high road.

    Was it a setup? Perhaps I wouldn't go that far but I don't think the PA went into this with any sort of resolution in mind despite controlling the agenda. They took advantage of the media but as further comments come out (including those frome there own media favourites) it certainly doesn't paint them in a good light at all. What they did perhaps do is use the media to portray the owners as bad guys to their own membership and re-form the ranks. Of course I think you'll find that any minor cracks in ownership that may have developed (there hasn't been much to suggest that though) were shored up as well and their resolve is just as strong.
     
  22. dakota

    dakota Registered User

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    interesting post and I agree... this was a setup...

    it helped to galvanize the pa back on side... and made a few pro-owner fans switch sides (thinking that 8 teams had sabotaged the rest of the teams)... it worked after seeing some of the fans here blaming Nashville and Florida....

    so the game goes on... Bettman takes the high road and just tells it like it is... he is very professional and does not stoop to these childish tactics by Goodenow and Saskin... the PA is definately mixed up they should come to their senses soon otherwise their deal will get worse and worse...
     
  23. tantalum

    tantalum Registered User

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    The whole 8 team thing is a bit confused by most. It only applies if Bettman does not recommend the deal. It basically just doesn't allow the owners to start negotiating their own CBA which basically happened last time around. It puts the control more in his hands and keeps the negotiating committe as the point men in this. However, he still has to take direction from the governors as a whole and I believe his job is protected by only a majority vote (i.e. if 20 teams really wanted the PA deal they could fire Bettman and approve the deal). The negotiating committee is one that the governors approve of and essentially appointed. If those 22 teams really thought the other 8 were killing them Hotchkiss would not be the chairman for goodness sakes. Ah well, it seems to be coming out now that the NHL fully expected the union to come with a deal, extended the olive branch of hosting the meeting and agreeing to the PA request to let Gretzky and Lemieux come into the negotiations, only to be blindsided by atleast a ceratin amount, the leak came from the players side and that the PA tried to make full use of the media as a PR stunt. Whether it had the whole thing planned from the beginning or whether they just didn't like the discussions as a whole and decided to try to capitalise with the media we may never know. BUt it certainly wasn't the high road to take IMO.
     
  24. pepty

    pepty Let's win it all

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    My first post - Hi all

    I have been somewhat pro PA in all this until now.The NHL response to the PA offers have too often been insulting(such as to the 24 %rollback)and even the last offer was presented in a surly take it or leave it way. It looked as though they were not really keen on making a negotiated settlement.

    In this case however it looks like both Tuesday night and Saturday,the League was signalling that they would consider an agreement at the 44-46 cap level and were stunned that the PA didn't make such an offer.

    At that time the players were in shock over the PA agreement to accept a salary cap at any level.It was becoming clearer to them that this agreement could have been reached a long time ago without them losing so much money with their no-cap posturing.Some of them were quoted questioning Goodenow's leadership and last minute deadline negotiationg tactics. It seemed clear that his game of poker had blown up in his face and cost the players dearly.

    So this last charade looks like a stunt to shore up Gododenow's postion in the PA and to demonstrate that they were never really that close and that the league didn't want to negotiate;therefore a deal could not have been reached months ago and all that money had not been lost for nothing.The tactic seems to have worked as all his little charges have fallen into line.
     
  25. misterjaggers

    misterjaggers Registered User

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    The most damning evidence that the NHLPA set up this fiasco was their invitation of Wayne and Mario. Then I read Goodenow's rebuttal,
    "...Two - Friday morning, when arrangements for the League-requested meeting were being coordinated, Bill advised Trevor that Gary would not be attending on behalf of the League. As a result, I also did not attend..." - Bob Goodenow

    After I read point four of Goodenow's rebuttal, I laughed and concluded that Goodenow was lying, but what difference does it make? There won't be any agreement until the union members feel some pain and then they'll get a worse deal than was offered a few days ago. That'll be another rib-tickler. :lol
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2005
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