TV: (HBO) Westworld Season 2

[TB12]

I would be really surprised if it were Maeve. Dolores and Maeve aren't allies, and Maeve was seen intact on the beach having recently been found near the end when Halores was leaving. Assuming her control unit wasn't destroyed in the blast, my guess would be Angela. Angela was Dolores' right hand all season and is also familiar with the real world.

I agree with this that I don't think Maeve was one of the control units Halores took. When they were on the beach and the woman said to see which units could be salvaged, those two tech guys shared a really long look and then looked at Maeve. I think she will be the link for the show to still be in the park in season 3.

Also, from a few articles I read with the show's producers they confirmed that the post-credit scene takes place way into the future. Which is why the Forge is so old and wrecked. To me, this means that William and Emily were both humans this entire season. Which means William killed his human daughter.

Much like how Delos kept going back to that scene by the pool with Logan, host/hybrid William keeps ending up here in the Forge with host Emily to verify fidelity. And which is why host Emily says "and here we are again"...and again.
Seems like no matter what choices they make they always loop back to the worst/most important moment in their life which for Delos is when he abandoned his son, who later overdosed and for William it was when he killed his daughter.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Not sure how anyone can be so in love with mediocrity and so unaware of the very valid criticisms lobbed at this season.

Only episodes 4 and 8 really tapped the potential of what this show can be.

The rest were schlock where they indulged in some of the worst habits HBO shows tend to have. The finale was not satisfying. The fort assault was a ****ing joke. Dolores isn't likable in the slightest and neither is Hale (because Tessa Thompson is a one note actor). Ford was turned into a cartoon villain. The writers have no clear plan, they literally admitted to writing the Stubbs host reveal the night before shooting. Outside of a couple brilliant episodes, the money spent on this show is being wasted on little return.

The best episode of the season was a bottle episode (Kiksuya) where they were forced to tell a compelling, mostly single-threaded story.

You amazingly answered his blanket claim with one of your own, invalidating both posts.

 

[XX]

You amazingly answered his blanket claim with one of your own, invalidating both posts.

The point was to show there's a diverse range of opinions out there about the show. Not all of it is sunshine and rainbows. Plenty of critics have taken the time to dissect what is wrong with this season if someone is interested in exploring why the show is not reaching the level it should be at.

 

[Emperoreddy]

On the character side of things, this season needed some more payoffs.

Dolores especially got no real payoff. I suspect it is being saved for future seasons, but it leaves her whole arc this season feeling unfinished.

Teddy killing himself was the only real consequence of her actions.

I am going to admit I have never liked Maeve that much in either season. Her story always felt pretty tacked on to me. More a side story or “gaiden” then something important to the main arcs.

Bernard and William had the most satisfying arcs of the season, and I am the most curious about where they go from here.

 

[Emperoreddy]

The point was to show there's a diverse range of opinions out there about the show. Not all of it is sunshine and rainbows. Plenty of critics have taken the time to dissect what is wrong with this season if someone is interested in exploring why the show is not reaching the level it should be at.

In your opinion. Plenty of people feel the show continues to reach its heights.

 

[XX]

In your opinion. Plenty of people feel the show continues to reach its heights.

By the numbers, fewer and fewer people feel that way.

Thankfully HBO cares about quality so I'm sure there will be a nice adjustment in S3.

 

[Emperoreddy]

By the numbers, fewer and fewer people feel that way.

Thankfully HBO cares about quality so I'm sure there will be a nice adjustment in S3.

Source for said blanket statement?

 

[XX]

Source for said blanket statement?

Have you... not been paying attention to the noticeable ratings dip this season?

 

[Emperoreddy]

Have you... not been paying attention to the noticeable ratings dip this season?

Source?

 

[XX]

Source?

S1 averaged 13.2m viewers. HBO expects S2 to average 10 million. The finale was down 30% from S1. Overall, viewership is decidedly down.

http://www.vulture.com/2018/06/westworld-season-2-hbo-ratings.html
'Westworld' Season 2 Finale Ratings Were Down 30% Compared to Season 1
Sunday cable ratings: ‘Westworld’ finale steady, Season 2 down vs. Season 1
'Westworld's' ratings fell during its messy season 2, and it shows viewers are frustrated

etc.. etc...

 

[Emperoreddy]

http://www.vulture.com/2018/06/westworld-season-2-hbo-ratings.html

Apparently it isn’t really a big deal since the numbers are still huge. Especially for a premium cable show.

Much ado

 

[Blender]

http://www.vulture.com/2018/06/westworld-season-2-hbo-ratings.html

Apparently it isn’t really a big deal since the numbers are still huge. Especially for a premium cable show.

Much ado

You know people are out of touch with how most people consume television shows these days when there is hand wringing over Nielsen ratings. It's 2018, not 1988.

 

[HoseEmDown]

I like this show because I'm an idiot and I don't get things so I watch to be entertained not to find clues. I read this thread and see words like deus ex machina, macguffin or red herrings and I have no clue what those are and how to spot them. I come in here to try to see if what I thought was going on was correct and I'm mostly wrong. I don't think I could watch a show or movie if I was trying to figure it out the whole time instead of just enjoying it. It's why I can't watch medical shows since I work in that field I pick them apart instead of trying to enjoy them.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I like this show because I'm an idiot and I don't get things so I watch to be entertained not to find clues. I read this thread and see words like deus ex machina, macguffin or red herrings and I have no clue what those are and how to spot them. I come in here to try to see if what I thought was going on was correct and I'm mostly wrong. I don't think I could watch a show or movie if I was trying to figure it out the whole time instead of just enjoying it. It's why I can't watch medical shows since I work in that field I pick them apart instead of trying to enjoy them.

Don't worry, you aren't the only one in this thread who doesn't know what deus ex machina or macguffin are

 

[Osprey]

Neither of you may care, but...

A deus ex machina is when the heroes are gotten out of a jam at the last minute in a way that seems unlikely. That tends to happen when a writer has written himself into a corner and needs to invent an "act of God" ("deus" means "god") to get himself out of it. The Great Eagles appearing out of nowhere a couple times to rescue Frodo and company from certain doom is commonly cited as one. A few people have argued that Emily stumbling upon William just when he needed her felt like a deus ex machina.

A MacGuffin is an object, person or place that a story centers around, but which could be substituted for something else without it affecting the story much. It exists in the story solely to give the parties something to pursue or fight over. The holy grail and the maltese falcon are two examples. A few people have argued that Abernathy felt like a MacGuffin at times this season, since multiple parties were fighting over him for reasons that weren't entirely clear to the viewer.

Generally speaking, they're considered undesirable in writing because they don't require much creativity or planning, whereas it does take creativity and planning to write a story that doesn't need to resort to them. They're like tropes in that it's not necessarily a bad thing to employ them, but it's generally considered better writing to avoid them.

 

[Bubba Thudd]

^^ Thanks for that

 

[Blender]

Not that either of you care, but...

A deus ex machina is when the heroes are gotten out of a jam at the last minute in a way that seems unlikely. That tends to happen when a writer has written himself into a corner and needs to invent an "act of God" ("deus" means "god") to get himself out of it. The Great Eagles appearing out of nowhere a couple times to rescue Frodo and company from certain doom is commonly cited as one. A few people have argued that Emily stumbling upon William just when he needed her felt like deus ex machina.

A MacGuffin is an object, person or place that a story centers around, but which could be substituted for something else without it affecting the story much. It exists in the story solely to give the parties something to pursue or fight over. The holy grail and the maltese falcon are two examples. A few people have argued that Abernathy felt like a MacGuffin at times this season, since multiple parties were fighting over him for unknown reasons.

Generally speaking, they're considered undesirable in writing because they don't require much creativity or planning, whereas it does take creativity and planning to write a story that doesn't need to resort to them. They're like tropes in that it's not necessarily a bad thing to employ them, but it's generally considered better writing to avoid them.

The only thing I disagree with is that a MacGuffin isn't always a bad thing. You can still write a great story around a MacGuffin (The Maltese Falcon, Pulp Fiction, Citizen Kane, North By Northwest, etc.) while I struggle to think of a great usage of Deus Ex Machina to end a story.

 

[Hivemind]

Dodgeball

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Not that either of you care, but...

A deus ex machina is when the heroes are gotten out of a jam at the last minute in a way that seems unlikely. That tends to happen when a writer has written himself into a corner and needs to invent an "act of God" ("deus" means "god") to get himself out of it. The Great Eagles appearing out of nowhere a couple times to rescue Frodo and company from certain doom is commonly cited as one. A few people have argued that Emily stumbling upon William just when he needed her felt like deus ex machina.

A MacGuffin is an object, person or place that a story centers around, but which could be substituted for something else without it affecting the story much. It exists in the story solely to give the parties something to pursue or fight over. The holy grail and the maltese falcon are two examples. A few people have argued that Abernathy felt like a MacGuffin at times this season, since multiple parties were fighting over him for unknown reasons.

Generally speaking, they're considered undesirable in writing because they don't require much creativity or planning, whereas it does take creativity and planning to write a story that doesn't need to resort to them. They're like tropes in that it's not necessarily a bad thing to employ them, but it's generally considered better writing to avoid them.

I wasnt referring to myself

 

[Osprey]

The only thing I disagree with is that a MacGuffin isn't always a bad thing. You can still write a great story around a MacGuffin (The Maltese Falcon, Pulp Fiction, Citizen Kane, North By Northwest, etc.) while I struggle to think of a great usage of Deus Ex Machina to end a story.

Yeah, I agree that MacGuffins are more acceptable than deus ex machinas, but that didn't really come across because I was trying to summarize their similarities more than their differences. That said, while you can still write a great story around a MacGuffin, I think that, ideally, it's better when the object/person/place in question has a stronger correlation to the plot so that you can't just substitute them for anything else and have the plot make as much sense.

I wasnt referring to myself

Ah, OK.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Neither of you may care, but...

A deus ex machina is when the heroes are gotten out of a jam at the last minute in a way that seems unlikely. That tends to happen when a writer has written himself into a corner and needs to invent an "act of God" ("deus" means "god") to get himself out of it. The Great Eagles appearing out of nowhere a couple times to rescue Frodo and company from certain doom is commonly cited as one. A few people have argued that Emily stumbling upon William just when he needed her felt like a deus ex machina.

A MacGuffin is an object, person or place that a story centers around, but which could be substituted for something else without it affecting the story much. It exists in the story solely to give the parties something to pursue or fight over. The holy grail and the maltese falcon are two examples. A few people have argued that Abernathy felt like a MacGuffin at times this season, since multiple parties were fighting over him for reasons that weren't entirely clear to the viewer.

Generally speaking, they're considered undesirable in writing because they don't require much creativity or planning, whereas it does take creativity and planning to write a story that doesn't need to resort to them. They're like tropes in that it's not necessarily a bad thing to employ them, but it's generally considered better writing to avoid them.

Thanks I guess, still super confused but get it a bit better. I think the Dues ex machina part isn't as bad to me, you kinda always want to get that happy ending and see the good guys win so you accept it. I know there's been times where you hate the main character and don't want them to win and when they do your pissed or if the way they win is so far fetched it runs it but for the most part you can live with it. In this show I can live with it because I like most of the characters, except for Mauve at the end they went too far with her abilities.

A macguffin I still am a little confused on. I never see the Maltese Falcon so maybe that's why I don't get it? The Holy grail I've seen, assuming you mean the Indiana Jones one? At first he was finding his dad then it became a search for the grail, that the macguffin switch?

I guess I'm the easy mark for the entertainment business. Just give me a decent story, good laughs, believable action, a little T & A never hurts and end it somewhat believable and I'll keep coming back.

 

[Asheville]

How's this show going? Still pretentious as ever?

 

[Osprey]

Thanks I guess, still super confused but get it a bit better. I think the Dues ex machina part isn't as bad to me, you kinda always want to get that happy ending and see the good guys win so you accept it. I know there's been times where you hate the main character and don't want them to win and when they do your pissed or if the way they win is so far fetched it runs it but for the most part you can live with it. In this show I can live with it because I like most of the characters, except for Mauve at the end they went too far with her abilities.

A deus ex machina isn't as general as you're thinking--it's not simply pulling a satisfying victory from the jaws of defeat--or else nearly every action and adventure movie would have one. It's a lot more rare than that and usually breaks suspension of disbelief, causing the viewer to be unsatisfied with it. Since it's usually associated with an unsatisfying conclusion, it's generally considered an unsatisfactory writing device to use.

A macguffin I still am a little confused on. I never see the Maltese Falcon so maybe that's why I don't get it? The Holy grail I've seen, assuming you mean the Indiana Jones one? At first he was finding his dad then it became a search for the grail, that the macguffin switch?

I wasn't really referring to a specific movie or story about the holy grail, just how the holy grail is often more of an idea than a tangible thing. In many grail stories, the characters pursue the grail and never find it, so it never actually exists in the story, except as an idea. In different stories, instead of pursuing an object like the grail, the characters might be on a quest to get to a specific location, like a paradise, but never actually reach it. In either type, the real story is what happens to the characters on the way (i.e. "it's the journey, not the destination") and the MacGuffin is the excuse to put them on the journey in the first place.

 

[HoseEmDown]

A deus ex machina isn't as general as you're thinking that it is--that it's simply pulling a satisfying victory from the jaws of defeat--or else nearly every action and adventure movie would have one. It's a lot more rare than that and usually breaks the suspension of disbelief, causing the viewer to be unsatisfied with it. Since it's usually associated with an unsatisfying conclusion, it's generally considered an unsatisfactory writing device to use.



I wasn't really referring to a specific movie or story about the holy grail, just how the holy grail is often more of an idea than a tangible object. In many grail stories, the characters pursue the grail and never find it. In unrelated stories, the characters might be on a quest to get to a location, like paradise, and never actually reach it. In such cases, the real story is what happens to the characters on the way and the MacGuffin is the excuse to put them on the journey in the first place.

Ah, that makes much more sense now. Hopefully it doesn't mess with my enjoyment factor when watching TV or movies going forward.

 

[Osprey]

Ah, that makes much more sense now. Hopefully it doesn't mess with my enjoyment factor when watching TV or movies going forward.

Don't worry. They're not usually things that anyone thinks about until after they're done watching and are trying to put into words why certain things didn't sit right.

If you want a better chance of messing with how you enjoy TV or movies, spend a lot of time reading the entries at tvtropes.com. That site has thousands of entries on tropes that are easier to recognize.