Proposal: Hayes to the Flames

[Solace2420]

What is the status of Frolik? Could he be going back to NY as a Cap Dump? NYR took Beleksy in a cap dump from Boston in the Nash trade.

Frolik is playing well for the flames and plays a few different roles. No point in trading him.

 

[treple13]

Frolik is playing well for the flames and plays a few different roles. No point in trading him.

Exactly. Frolik has a ton of value to the Flames at the moment. In the summer maybe we have to trade him to cut costs, but not many rentals out there better for us than Frolik.

 

[Lunatik]

Frolik is playing well for the flames and plays a few different roles. No point in trading him.

Exactly. Frolik has a ton of value to the Flames at the moment. In the summer maybe we have to trade him to cut costs, but not many rentals out there better for us than Frolik.

While you guys aren't wrong, there is also the shenanigans of Walsh, we don't know what's going on. For the time being all is good because Frolik is playing well, but what happens if his play wanes again and he's demoted to the 4th line or scratched again? It has potential to be a distraction.

That said, I have 100% faith that the management team has their finger son the pulse of the situation and will make the right decision regarding him.

 

[The Gnome]

I like a lot of Rangers players, but if we can't fit them in long term and send Frolik back with a conditional 1st, I think we should hang tight. I have a feeling this team is just going to get better, even if we do bow out early this year. Condition being WCF.

 

[Kupo]

I like a lot of Rangers players, but if we can't fit them in long term and send Frolik back with a conditional 1st, I think we should hang tight. I have a feeling this team is just going to get better, even if we do bow out early this year. Condition being WCF.

I think a lot of ppl would agree with you here.

If the tables were turned, I’d rather just reload for next years run as a Flames fan than burn through quality futures for an outside shot this year.

Problem is there’s enormous and sometimes unrealistic expectations and pressure on these GM’s to produce now. It complicates things.

I think Riddell and Treliving are a great fit, so I don’t see the Flames ****ing up this potential Wet Dream.

 

[bernmeister]

Chris Kreider will return more than Hayes though - so many teams need such a player. Best in gym and quick skating abilities and 4 assist in his last 5 games.

Ori, everyone understands there is a decent chance Hayes, who likes it here, will return to NY. Kreider, setting aside it is the extra year, I think he thinks about it, and being highly intelligent, understands we are doing this to get out from under all the foolishness of listening to the win now crowd too much previously. But while Kreider gives us solid courtesy, where are we next year? I am optimistic as to Fs and Gs, Ds a work in process. That said, if we shipped CK to EDM or Avs, and he is playing with likes of McD/MacK respectively, I think we give him extra pause about where he goes next contract.

I am the biggest CK booster, that is established, and that said, everybody is available at the right price. But CK we have to be more careful than with Hayes or Zuc.

The Flames would be reluctant to give it up because it would mean not picking in the first two rounds two years in a row. We don't have a 2019 2nd. On the other hand I'm not enamored at all with the 20-50 type talent in the draft this year so maybe they feel the same way.

heard you.
What about
Hayes retained 50% and DeAngelo
for
Rasmus Andersson, Dube + like 2022 1st. [top pick but pushed way back]
Hayes is 5+ half is 2 something +, ballpark cap is 3, DeA ending elc you control via pending rfa at commensurate salary, terms.
NY can take back expiring cap dump if nec
something around this?

 

[Lunatik]

What about
Hayes retained 50% and DeAngelo
for
Rasmus Andersson, Dube + like 2022 1st. [top pick but pushed way back]
Hayes is 5+ half is 2 something +, ballpark cap is 3, DeA ending elc you control via pending rfa at commensurate salary, terms.
NY can take back expiring cap dump if nec
something around this?

We value both Dube and Andersson more than our first... so you essentially want 3 first round picks for a UFA.... not a f***ing chance. I wouldn't give that up for Mark Stone, nevermind Hayes.

 

[bernmeister]

We value both Dube and Andersson more than our first... so you essentially want 32 first round picks for a UFA.... not a ****ing chance. I wouldn't give that up for Mark Stone, nevermind Hayes.

exaggerate much?

immediately useful improving DeA, 3rd pair min now, better 2nd pair potential vs. Andersson, Hayes NOW > Dube NOW and the 1st is huge late.
Delay in when prospects emerge and when we get that 1st, and something from it, offsets other considerations.

 

[Off Sides]

I'm definitely leaning towards Hayes to Calgary.

I'm not going to try too hard to get the return correct as it could be a bigger deal than just Hayes moving, could be an extension already lined up, could be the Rangers swapping one of their picks for a slightly better one, etc.

Yet I would be disappointed should the deal not include at least a guaranteed 1st or near equivalent prospect.

 

[Lunatik]

exaggerate much?

immediately useful improving DeA, 3rd pair min now, better 2nd pair potential vs. Andersson, Hayes NOW > Dube NOW and the 1st is huge late.
Delay in when prospects emerge and when we get that 1st, and something from it, offsets other considerations.

it was clearly a typo, a blind monkey could have seen I meant it to be a 3

You'd be lucky to get one of those assets, nevermind all 3.

You really need to get in touch with reality man, every time you post, it is so outlandish that there is a better chance Justin Beiber will be the next President of the United States than there is of you being even close to right.

 

[Shootertooter]

Ori, everyone understands there is a decent chance Hayes, who likes it here, will return to NY. Kreider, setting aside it is the extra year, I think he thinks about it, and being highly intelligent, understands we are doing this to get out from under all the foolishness of listening to the win now crowd too much previously. But while Kreider gives us solid courtesy, where are we next year? I am optimistic as to Fs and Gs, Ds a work in process. That said, if we shipped CK to EDM or Avs, and he is playing with likes of McD/MacK respectively, I think we give him extra pause about where he goes next contract.

I am the biggest CK booster, that is established, and that said, everybody is available at the right price. But CK we have to be more careful than with Hayes or Zuc.




heard you.
What about
Hayes retained 50% and DeAngelo
for
Rasmus Andersson, Dube + like 2022 1st. [top pick but pushed way back]
Hayes is 5+ half is 2 something +, ballpark cap is 3, DeA ending elc you control via pending rfa at commensurate salary, terms.
NY can take back expiring cap dump if nec
something around this?

That would be a return for Kreider not Hayes.

 

[Lunatik]

That would be a return for Kreider not Hayes.

Even Kreider wouldn't get that, that's better than Karlsson returned and defensemen have more trade value than wingers.

 

[Shootertooter]

Even Kreider wouldn't get that, that's better than Karlsson returned and defensemen have more trade value than wingers.

Wasn't Karlsson a rental?
I'm not too concerned about the 2022 1st and ADA.
For Kreider I'd want Ras and Dube. You may not want to make that trade but the value is about right.

 

[blankall]

Wasn't Karlsson a rental?
I'm not too concerned about the 2022 1st and ADA.
For Kreider I'd want Ras and Dube. You may not want to make that trade but the value is about right.

Ras is beginning to look like a legit top 4 dman. Zero chance he gets traded for Kreider. Kreider is almost 28, and that's the age that forwards typically begin to digress. It would be horrible asset management. Brodie would be a better target. A 1st plus Dube might happen. Rasmus Andersson, however, is off the table unless a player in their early 20s who looks like a clear top line talent is coming back.

You're valuation is just way off.

 

[Lunatik]

Wasn't Karlsson a rental?
I'm not too concerned about the 2022 1st and ADA.
For Kreider I'd want Ras and Dube. You may not want to make that trade but the value is about right.

Karlsson was traded in the summer, they got 2 months less service than whomever trades for Kreider.

And no, Kreider would not get both Andersson and Dube. Andersson is on the verge of becoming a top 4 defenseman will still be 22 when next season starts. Frankly I wouldn't move him alone for 1 year of Kreider. I'd consider Kylington or Dube and 2nd. But Andersson is an absolute non-starter.

 

[Solace2420]

We value both Dube and Andersson more than our first... so you essentially want 3 first round picks for a UFA.... not a ****ing chance. I wouldn't give that up for Mark Stone, nevermind Hayes.

Perfect response to this mess.

 

[Shootertooter]

Karlsson was traded in the summer, they got 2 months less service than whomever trades for Kreider.

And no, Kreider would not get both Andersson and Dube. Andersson is on the verge of becoming a top 4 defenseman will still be 22 when next season starts. Frankly I wouldn't move him alone for 1 year of Kreider. I'd consider Kylington or Dube and 2nd. But Andersson is an absolute non-starter.

That is fair and I respect your opinion but you are not getting a player like Kreider without a serious return coming to NY.
I like Dube, the first is ok but not an essential sticking point. No deal to be made here.

 

[Shootertooter]

Duchene has been traded. Hayes is the next best C. The price will creep upward.
What is the Flames offer?

 

[Shootertooter]

Ras is beginning to look like a legit top 4 dman. Zero chance he gets traded for Kreider. Kreider is almost 28, and that's the age that forwards typically begin to digress. It would be horrible asset management. Brodie would be a better target. A 1st plus Dube might happen. Rasmus Andersson, however, is off the table unless a player in their early 20s who looks like a clear top line talent is coming back.

You're valuation is just way off.

My valuation is off and you are trying to interest me in a 28yr D for my rebuilding team? Yeah.....NO!
28 is when forwards regress? If the guy was 31 or 32 I might agree but 28? No.

 

[crackdown44]

Duchene has been traded. Hayes is the next best C. The price will creep upward.
What is the Flames offer?

It would probably be a bit less than Duchene. So like a 1st + B prospect instead of 1st + 2Bs

Now I’m in the camp that doesn’t want Calgary to pay that for a rental. I’d be more interested in Zucc for a 2nd + B which is apparently the ask. We’ll see. Treliving is apparently doing his due diligence on everyone available

 

[Shootertooter]

It would probably be a bit less than Duchene. So like a 1st + B prospect instead of 1st + 2Bs

Now I’m in the camp that doesn’t want Calgary to pay that for a rental. I’d be more interested in Zucc for a 2nd + B which is apparently the ask. We’ll see. Treliving is apparently doing his due diligence on everyone available

I don't believe a team does itself much justice publicizing its "asking price". I think a possibility exists that Zucc can return a late first but I think a 2nd and a really good prospect is more realistic.

 

[crackdown44]

I don't believe a team does itself much justice publicizing its "asking price". I think a possibility exists that Zucc can return a late first but I think a 2nd and a really good prospect is more realistic.

It was Friedman that said the ask for Zucc was 2nd + prospect. I think just a late 1st could be an alternative depending on what level of prospect they are looking for

 

[Bounces R Way]

It would probably be quite a lot less than Duchene. Duchene has seven 50pt seasons. Hayes has 0.

 

[blankall]

My valuation is off and you are trying to interest me in a 28yr D for my rebuilding team? Yeah.....NO!
28 is when forwards regress? If the guy was 31 or 32 I might agree but 28? No.

So you admit that players are likely to hold less value in their late 20s than early 30s?

Forwards actually begin to regress at the age of 25, and then the pace picks up substantially at the age of 28:

A New Look at Aging Curves for NHL Skaters (part 1)

You can argue that Kreider, who is a power forward, will hang on slightly longer. That doesn't change the fact that players like Andersoon simply do not get traded for players in their late 20s who are soon to be UFAs. It's not happening. Andersson is playing top 4 minutes, and does not look out of place. He's the least likely of Calgary's big 3 defensive prospects to get traded.

 

[Shootertooter]

So you admit that players are likely to hold less value in their late 20s than early 30s?

Forwards actually begin to regress at the age of 25, and then the pace picks up substantially at the age of 28:

A New Look at Aging Curves for NHL Skaters (part 1)

You can argue that Kreider, who is a power forward, will hang on slightly longer. That doesn't change the fact that players like Andersoon simply do not get traded for players in their late 20s who are soon to be UFAs. It's not happening. Andersson is playing top 4 minutes, and does not look out of place. He's the least likely of Calgary's big 3 defensive prospects to get traded.

I think you are presenting an argument for a completely different point. If this was the draft, I'd agree with you 100% but this situation is teams preparing for playoff runs. Sometimes GM's make deals for vet's with experience by sacrificing youth and promise.
I think players.....forwards, reach and perform in their prime from 24 thru 28. Each player is different but Kreider is an amazing physical specimen.

I'm not sure the Rangers will move him but I am confident if they do, it will be for a tremendous package. They are rebuilding so youth and young core players are the key. The Rangers would be selling on Kreider because he is 28 and by the time they will compete he will be closer to 31/32.......I say 3 years of rebuilding. They would not trade Kreider to get another player the same age as Kreider...as you offered........it absolutely makes no sense to do that.......might as well keep him then.
So this is what I am admitting.........there is a difference between rebuilding a team and gearing up for the playoffs as it applies for trading vets for youth and picks.