GDT: Hawks vs Flyers: 1PM CT on NBCSCH, NHLN, SN360 - Saader-man: Far From Home edition

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BK

"Goalie Apologist"
Feb 8, 2011
33,636
16,483
Minneapolis, MN
i'm not debating anything. i said it was your terminology because you used the phrase, not because i think you just made it up. i know people use it. i'm skeptical of its value as a term, and i personally don't use it for the reasons i previously expressed.

You seem to question it because you can't quantify due to the NHL not have a consistent way of tracking it. Is this accurate?

When I say a goal is "savable" I analyze the shot/goal through a number of question with the eye test and if it is HDSA. Context and situation are important as well. I did the same thing on every goal agains when I played.

The shots are savable because if Crawford had a proper angle (both goals), was not down early (2nd goal), and was not stabbing at they puck (both goals) it is an easy glove save on both.

it would be fair if it was a dig. teaching's the plan, but still working on the degree.

I don't take digs at people college degree choices and job choice. Do what you love if you can make a living doing it.
 

Kevin Musto

Hard for Bedard
Feb 16, 2018
20,746
26,934
I think Kane and Cat need to always be together. I was listening to the Hawks Talk Podcast and they pulled up some stats that show they're an even more efficient tandem than Kane and Panarin. If that's the case, it'd be ridiculous to keep them apart. I think the problem becomes, who centers that line? It has to be someone with a strong defensive presence to balance things out. Strome isn't that guy. So should Strome and Cat be broken up for the sake of having Cat and Kane together? It might be a sacrifice worth making.

DeBrincat-Toews-Kane
Saad-Strome-Kubalik
Nylander-Dach-Shaw
Caggiula-Kampf-Carpenter
Smith

As much as I don't want to separate Cat and Strome, this might be optimal.
Cat and Kane are the best duo on the team, and Toews can balance them out defensively and do some dirty work around the net.
Saad and Strome in my opinion HAVE to play together. I think they compliment each other like yin and yang. Strome, being an exceptional playmaker, needs a triggerman so Kubalik can be that guy.
Dach and Nylander might be a bit inexperienced, but there's some potential for magic. Shaw adds veteran presence and grit, plus he'll stick up for those guys if they're in trouble.
4th line is what it is.
 
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featherhawk

Registered User
Dec 13, 2006
14,227
4,960
I think Kane and Cat need to always be together. I was listening to the Hawks Talk Podcast and they pulled up some stats that show they're an even more efficient tandem than Kane and Panarin. If that's the case, it'd be ridiculous to keep them apart. I think the problem becomes, who centers that line? It has to be someone with a strong defensive presence to balance things out. Strome isn't that guy. So should Strome and Cat be broken up for the sake of having Cat and Kane together? It might be a sacrifice worth making.

DeBrincat-Toews-Kane
Saad-Strome-Kubalik
Nylander-Dach-Shaw
Caggiula-Kampf-Carpenter
Smith

As much as I don't want to separate Cat and Strome, this might be optimal.
Cat and Kane are the best duo on the team, and Toews can balance them out defensively and do some dirty work around the net.
Saad and Strome in my opinion HAVE to play together. I think they compliment each other like yin and yang. Strome, being an exceptional playmaker, needs a triggerman so Kubalik can be that guy.
Dach and Nylander might be a bit inexperienced, but there's some potential for magic. Shaw adds veteran presence and grit, plus he'll stick up for those guys if they're in trouble.
4th line is what it is.

Strome has not showed us that he can contribute offensively 5 on 5 with anyone but CAT and that is worrisome that all of our eggs are in one basket with Cat-Toews-Kane.

I am not opposed to Cat and Kane together but if your saying it should not be Strome then I would say that it should not be Toews either cause all opponents will have to do is shut down that line and they win

try this if you want cat and Kane together

Nylander-Toews-Saad/Shaw
cat-Dach-Kane
Kubalik-Strome-Saad/Shaw
Cagguila-Kampf- Perlini/Smith/Carpenter
 

Kevin Musto

Hard for Bedard
Feb 16, 2018
20,746
26,934
Strome has not showed us that he can contribute offensively 5 on 5 with anyone but CAT and that is worrisome that all of our eggs are in one basket with Cat-Toews-Kane.

I am not opposed to Cat and Kane together but if your saying it should not be Strome then I would say that it should not be Toews either cause all opponents will have to do is shut down that line and they win

try this if you want cat and Kane together

Nylander-Toews-Saad/Shaw
cat-Dach-Kane
Kubalik-Strome-Saad/Shaw
Cagguila-Kampf- Perlini/Smith/Carpenter
That's a possibility, I just think that could be too big of a role for Dach to handle right off the bat. He's a 2 way player, but he's still a rookie that will be prone to mistakes. I'm not sure he can carry the defense there.
 

featherhawk

Registered User
Dec 13, 2006
14,227
4,960
That's a possibility, I just think that could be too big of a role for Dach to handle right off the bat. He's a 2 way player, but he's still a rookie that will be prone to mistakes. I'm not sure he can carry the defense there.

I think he would be just fine, Kaner gets a bad rap IMO, he has improved a great deal with his two way play, Cat is also not terrible, keep in mind that trio will get loads and loads of offensive zone starts to boot.

I still like this best

Nylander-Toews-Saad
Kubalik-Dach-Kane
Cat-Strome-Shaw
 

Docker

Registered User
Jun 22, 2019
25
11
@Hawsse you made some good points earlier in the thread but don’t get your insistence on or the relevance of the idea that every shot is theoretically saveable. They actually aren’t. Like, a human being cannot run a 5.0 second 100M. A goalie only has two legs, two hands, etc.
 

Docker

Registered User
Jun 22, 2019
25
11
The Leafs play their fifth game the same day we play our second. What the hell is that nonsense?

Yeah this is a bummer. It’s not that hard to make a reasonable schedule. NBA engages a Big 4 firm for data / analytics to do their scheduling. Not sure if the NHL does something like that or not, but it seems like the last few years at least I am scratching my head at some point on the schedule the NHL puts together.
 

Hawsse

grittier than quaker oats
Aug 9, 2014
176
114
rent free in your head
You seem to question it because you can't quantify due to the NHL not have a consistent way of tracking it. Is this accurate?
not at all. i question it on semantic grounds, all shots being savable by definition as i said earlier. it's not really an important point, it was never central to any of my arguments, i just don't personally like that way of describing it (especially when it's being used to distract from a point that is quite irrelevant to whether or not crawford should have made the save or not).

as far as i am concerned, quantification and qualification are both important parts of analysis. when done well, quality analysis can tell you infinitely more about the actual mechanics of what is going on at the micro-level. little movements and decisions here and there that give you a clue as to why something happened the way it did. that said, i have three problems with this kind of analysis as it is done in hockey forums like this:

a) typically "eye test" arguments are more convincing when someone provides actual visual evidence (a highlight, a picture, anything) to back up what they are saying. this is almost never done, and in fact most "eye test" arguments take the form of psychoanalysis and vaguery that can't even be backed up by visual evidence, which i find absolutely trite and unacceptable.
b) the person making the "eye test" claim almost never stops to consider whether or not what they saw, being entirely subjective, disagrees with their interlocutor's "eye test", and what implication that has for their argument. this is one of the primary reasons why quantitative evidence is so important; it provides one with the capacity to back up one's claim in a way that unambiguously favors one subjective assessment over the other.
c) people that always talk about "watching the games" and decry "stat watching" fail to understand that quantitative statistical analysis is just an outgrowth of the very qualitative data they hold steadfast to. every statistical category is a qualitative category (for instance, a "shot" or a "save" is a quality of an action in the game which adheres to a certain definition and is tracked by the scorekeeper). this is where you get the common line "the statistics lie" or "they don't tell the whole story". what the statistic tells you is precisely what it is defined to tell you. if someone gets the puck in the net twice in a game, that means he has two goals. once again, note how there is both a qualitative aspect and a quantitative aspect to the statistic. i think this is seldom appreciated by people on either side of the quality vs quantity debate.

apologies for my rambling about how i see this issue. feel free to ignore all of that, i just spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff.

@Hawsse you made some good points earlier in the thread but don’t get your insistence on or the relevance of the idea that every shot is theoretically saveable. They actually aren’t. Like, a human being cannot run a 5.0 second 100M. A goalie only has two legs, two hands, etc.
it's a purely analytic point, and as i said it wasn't central to any substantive argument i was making. i insist on it because i think it is trivially true by the very nature of what a save is. to me, an unsavable implies the complete negation of any possibility of its being saved. so ignoring a situation in which the goaltender is pulled, i think it is one hundred percent true that any shot on net is eligible for a save, and is therefore "savable".
 
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Docker

Registered User
Jun 22, 2019
25
11
But there are shots that, at the moment the puck is struck, are simply not saveable. Or are you allowing for the possibility that a goalie might theoretically move his hand 3x faster than any human being has ever done before? Or are you saying if the goalie had positioned himself better prior to the shot?

I hear you though and understand the point you are making. Just arguing haha.
 

Hawsse

grittier than quaker oats
Aug 9, 2014
176
114
rent free in your head
Or are you saying if the goalie had positioned himself better prior to the shot?
this is pretty close to what i mean. like i get that a goalie that's at the boards trying to play a puck that gets stolen isn't going to be able to make the save, but you could just as well say that about a perfectly pedestrian dump in that squeaks through the goalie's pads. why did it go in? it's because he was unable to save it. what is a shot that is unable to be saved? an unsavable shot. so really, you get to a point where either every shot is savable, or every shot that goes in is unsavable. i chose to dispense with the term altogether and say that the goalie should have played the puck better, or he let in a soft goal. like i said, it's entirely semantical. the only reason i brought it up was because i thought it was irrelevant to the point i was making to begin with, so really this is all ancillary nonsense that shouldn't have taken up so much of my time, but such is life.
 

LordKOTL

Abuse of Officials
Aug 15, 2014
3,525
768
Pacific NW
Crawford was mediocre at best. The guy I was most disappointed in was Keith though. He really looked off for most of the game and when your #1 D is that poor I really think it sets a bad example from #2 on down.

I think CDH and Murphy returning will greatly improve the overall performance though. I don’t think this team has a true top pairing. They need to spread the minutes out and keep guys fresh. They don’t have a workhorse anymore.

Exactly. Crawford wasn't that good at all, but let's not pretend Keith was anything but his 2018 self where he was such a liability that Matthew Keith would have been an upgrade on the backend.

But, it's one game. Even though we have to stew on this for awhile, how the team recovers over the next couple of games will be telling. The pants-downer the 'hawks gave their fans in Prague could be a one-off. We don't know.

I just really hope the 'hawks were forced to fly sardine-can coach next to the restrooms with crying babies surrounded them on the flight home to contemplate their sins.
 

ChiHawks10

Registered User
Jul 7, 2009
27,921
21,144
Chicago 'Burbs
The Leafs play their fifth game the same day we play our second. What the hell is that nonsense?

Yeah this is a bummer. It’s not that hard to make a reasonable schedule. NBA engages a Big 4 firm for data / analytics to do their scheduling. Not sure if the NHL does something like that or not, but it seems like the last few years at least I am scratching my head at some point on the schedule the NHL puts together.

They were in Europe and had to come back home. Hence they had more time off between games 1 and 2. If they had been in the US, they likely would have played a few games already. There were probably promotional things they were obligated to do in Europe before and after the game, and those dictated their schedule. The NHL is trying to promote the league over there, so why would they fly there, play a game, and immediate fly back a day later? I'm sure they did all kinds of signings/appearances, etc. that kept them over there for an extra couple days.

If they flew home right after the game, then disregard, but I'm not sure if they did or not.
 

Panzerspitze

Registered User
Mar 4, 2010
4,955
994
Exactly. Crawford wasn't that good at all, but let's not pretend Keith was anything but his 2018 self where he was such a liability that Matthew Keith would have been an upgrade on the backend.

But, it's one game. Even though we have to stew on this for awhile, how the team recovers over the next couple of games will be telling. The pants-downer the 'hawks gave their fans in Prague could be a one-off. We don't know.

I just really hope the 'hawks were forced to fly sardine-can coach next to the restrooms with crying babies surrounded them on the flight home to contemplate their sins.

And the crying babies would have stopped crying and started booing, after that putrid performance in Prague.
 
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LordKOTL

Abuse of Officials
Aug 15, 2014
3,525
768
Pacific NW
And the crying babies would have stopped crying and started booing, after that putrid performance in Prague.
I just think it would be appropriate for the bulk of the team to endure 10 hours of chemical toilet aroma + eau du Klobasa bowl movements so they would get a good, strong whiff of what they gave the fans for the home opener.

One game I know...but I'm only talking about 10 hours (I believe that's the usual flight time from Prague to Chicago--it's been awhile since I flew that route) of the stench treatment to de-head the rectum of the team.
 

x Tame Impala

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Aug 24, 2011
27,435
11,781
One of the worst things about the loss is this huge time in between games. We're all anxiously waiting to see a new and improved Hawks team so for them to lay a stinker and then have all 6 f***in days off blows.

Maybe it'll help the players and coaches though? Extra time to fix some problems
 
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Kevin Musto

Hard for Bedard
Feb 16, 2018
20,746
26,934
One of the worst things about the loss is this huge time in between games. We're all anxiously waiting to see a new and improved Hawks team so for them to lay a stinker and then have all 6 ****in days off blows.

Maybe it'll help the players and coaches though? Extra time to fix some problems
It's a good thing because it gives them time to dissect their problems and correct them.

Their pre season practice time got cut short with all the travel.
 
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