Have you guys seen what the Yanks payroll will be ( relates to NHL)

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by shayne, Jan 1, 2005.

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  1. shayne

    shayne Registered User

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    The Yanks under a luxury tax system have to pay $25 million penalty, do they care...NO. The are going to make the Randy Johnson trade that will see their payroll rise to $205 million.

    The Jays and 1/2 the league are under $60 million( i have not actually checked, but a decent guess i think)

    The NHLPA wants a luxury tax, NO KIDDING they want that, the tax does nothing.

    I do not want to see that much disparity amongs payrolls , it is not good for the NHL or any league.
    I could see a cap set high enough that the money making teams with currently high payrolls will continue to have a financial advantage over their competitors.

    A $42 million cap as an example, Nashville, Florida, Calgary etc cannot go up to those levels so the Flyers, Wings, Leafs etc still have a financial advantage.

    The difference here is that the disparity can't get stupid, teams can still have a $10 to $15 million dollar edge and that is not chump change but they can't have a $150 million dollar edge.

    I think the players should accept a cap for the health of the sport but owners should up the levels so the players still do very well and deservedly so.

    A deal is out there but it will have to include a cap, the PA should negotiate their best deal under those parameters.
    Cheers in '05
     
  2. Son of Steinbrenner

    Son of Steinbrenner Registered User

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    the bigger crime is the teams thats get the yankees luxary tax money and don't spend it to improve the team.
     
  3. Evman*

    Evman* Guest

    Actually, I'm pretty sure that's not even close to a bigger crime.
     
  4. coyoteshockeyfan

    coyoteshockeyfan Registered User

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    $25 million doesnt go very far spread out over all of the other teams. So Tampa Bay can upgrade their backup catcher because of the tax...yay...
     
  5. nyr7andcounting

    nyr7andcounting Registered User

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    Well the Yankees don't relate to any other team in sports, so I don't see the problem in MLB surfacing in the NHL if we had a luxury tax. If done rightly a tax could work. But your point is a good one, a cap in the low $40's would mean teams that make more, and deserve to spend more, could. It could certainly work.
     
  6. London Knights

    London Knights Registered User

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    No, the tax set too high, and at too low of an amount does nothing.

    Major League Baseball's luxury tax is set at either 120.5 million dollars. Their penalty because this was the second year in a row that they were over the payroll...a whopping 30% tax. Their tax doesn't even start until 4.5 times the payroll of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, the lowest payroll in baseball.

    And while the NHLPA's offer was far too weak, their proposal in comparison is fierce to Major League Baseball's.

    The tax starts at 45 million at 20%. That is a value double that of the lowest spending team (Nashville), and is nearly as harsh as the 1st time offender tax of 22.5% that MLB offers.
    It then jumps to 50% at 50 million. Already more significant than MLB's and at 2.3 times the lowest NHL salary.
    It then jumped to 60% at 60 million 2.7 times the lowest salary.

    To say look at baseball for why a luxury tax doesn't work is not a fair evalulation because Major League Baseball made a system that wouldn't harm the New York Yankees, and that is what it was designed for.

    The NHLPA's proposed numbers are not at level that the NHL would need to keep salaries down, but to just say, look at baseball for why the system wouldn't work is completely unrealistic.

    You also have to take into account that there is no NYY owner in the NHL. Even Illitch, with the highest payroll in the league, would have been cutting that down because they have a youth movement going on in Detroit.

    A luxury tax could work if it began at 35 million dollars, say at 40%, rose to 70% at 40 million, 85% at 45 million and over 100% at 50 million. Few teams would be willing to go much over the 50 million dollar level if they were going to be heavily taxed at that amount.

    The greatest cause of salary increase was the arbitration process in the NHL. Step one of fixing that problem was changing the qualifying offer system. Players above the league average were given between 100% or 85% on a sliding scale, I think, levels of qualification. Already the automatic 15% increase in player salaries is taken away which benefits all teams.

    Take Player A, from say Edmonton. After their first contract in the league they are making say 2.6 million with bonuses. Edmonton doesn't feel they deserve another long term deal at the money they want but don't want to lose them, so under the old system with the automatic 15% increases, becomes 3, then 3.4, then 3.95, etc...
    Under a new system they could keep the contract at that level instead of having it inflate year after year.

    The reverse arbitration system would also go a long way to limiting higher contracts as teams would have the ability to lower the contracts of overpaid players. Take the same Player A and say Edmonton gave him a 4 million dollar contract at age 26 but it is only a 1 year deal. Said player struggled and only manages 15 goals and 44 points. Edmonton doesn't feel that comparable players are making the same amount, so you take him to arbitration and maybe lower his salary back down to 3 million as that is what comparable players at a comparable age are making.

    The NHLPA's offer of 1 time arbitration isn't good enough, but if the system is changed to perhaps every other year then it becomes far more advantageous for the GM of a team.

    Also changes to the entry level contracts also benefits this going into the future. As contracts are limited in size at the outset, they are less likely to jump ahead the levels they are currently at in such a rapid period of time. With limited qualifying offers a player cannot just go from 2 million to 5 million automatically.

    There are obvious flaws in the NHLPA's offer, but none are so glaring that severe penalties couldn't greatly reduce the possibility for abuse of the system.
     
  7. thinkwild

    thinkwild Veni Vidi Toga

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    I agree the Yankess dont relate to any other team in sports, certainly there is no comparable in hockey. Moreover, baseball owners are all quite happy and profitable with their agreement. Sure they'd like a cap as it is easier, but they arent complaining with the system as far as their ability to make money. Hockey already has better competitive balance. And since no other baseball teams fans live in fear their team may be contracted as hockey fans do, they arent worried about it. Take out the Yankees, and maybe Red Sox, and the rest of the teams are quite capable of succeeding and profiting.

    If baseballs weak tax make them successful, the PAs proposed stronger tax should be able towork the same in hockey.

    One of the questions with a luxury tax is: how much money do you think it should raise? $200 mil to cover the levitt losses? IF you want it to raise $0 or very little money but simply use it as a blunt attempt to limit spending, besides not working, you are not asking for the tax, you are asking it to be a cap. No use pretending you are proposing a luxury tax because its purpose is to raise money from the rich to redistribute to the poor, not just to restrict the rich. Then its a cap. A strict tax means only the rich can spend it. Its not fairer.

    The greatest cause of salary increase was revenue increase. Arbitration is designed to increase salaries between rookie cap to free agent value. If the top RFA comparables are set, arbitration isnt inflationary, its stabilizing.

    As you say, with reverse arbitration, rookie caps and bonuses lowered, QO changes, if tweaked properly, there is no need to to have heavy restrictions on overall payroll as RFA salaries are under control, and these are the only ones that need controlling. With proper controls here, there is no more need for strict taxes.
     
  8. Son of Steinbrenner

    Son of Steinbrenner Registered User

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    oh really. so an owner that spends money to improve the team is bad for baseball but an owner who gets luxary tax money and pockets it is ok?

    huh?
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2005
  9. This is useless comparison.
    First of all, the MLB luxury tax is weak compared to most of the tax penalties people on this board - even pro-player posters - have suggested.
    Second of all, there is no franchise in hockey that can even come close to matching the Yankees revenue stream. Not even in relative terms.

    So this entire thread is a red herring.
     
  10. coyoteshockeyfan

    coyoteshockeyfan Registered User

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    There isnt much money for them to pocket. The MLB luxury tax is a joke.
     
  11. Son of Steinbrenner

    Son of Steinbrenner Registered User

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    hmm.

    the yankees will pay a total of 80 million dollars this year in revenue sharing and luxary tax money. it isn't a crime that owners pocket this money and don't put it back in the team?
     
  12. coyoteshockeyfan

    coyoteshockeyfan Registered User

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    Link? Ive never heard the figure being that high. Even if it is, thats less than 3 million a team, cant do much with that either.
     
  13. DownFromNJ

    DownFromNJ Registered User

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    The luxery tax is hurting the Yankees regardless. Beltran would be a Yankee by now if it wasn't in existance.
     
  14. coyoteshockeyfan

    coyoteshockeyfan Registered User

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    He'll still be a Yankee most likely.
     
  15. TonySCV

    TonySCV Golden

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    As bad as the NHL work staoppage is, it's going to pale in comparison to the one brewing when baseball's current CBA is set to expire.
     
  16. trentmccleary

    trentmccleary Registered User

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    Please Georgie... sign him!!!
    Stop doing such a [email protected]$$ job and finally kill off any hopes and dreams of fans in places like Pittsburgh and Tampa Bay.
    Anything less than 162-0 would be failure. Please, just end any last remaining idea that MLB is competitive or remotely entertaining.
     
  17. Son of Steinbrenner

    Son of Steinbrenner Registered User

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    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041228/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_luxury_tax

    The Yankees are paying more in luxury tax than the Tampa Bay Devil Rays (news) spent on their payroll. New York is required to pay $25,026,352, according to a Dec. 21 memorandum that was sent to all major league teams.

    New York also estimates it will give up about $60 million as part of baseball's revenue-sharing plan this season, meaning the Yankees will send the commissioner's office about $85 million of their estimated $315 million revenue in 2004. Boston's revenue-sharing payment is estimated at approximately $42 million on revenue of at least $220 million


    how do you figure teams would split 3 million? only ten teams collect the luxary tax money and the red sox and angels are also paying. i'll ask again what is the bigger crime the teams that pocket the money or the teams that spend the money?
     
  18. Son of Steinbrenner

    Son of Steinbrenner Registered User

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    oh really? baseball has never been more popular and healthy. baseball is so popular that that it doesn't even have an offseason. the nhl work stoppage is going on because the league isn't making money. baseball owners are making money and won't shut the game down.
     
  19. Cloned

    Cloned Amazing Alicia

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    In addition to that, I think Tino Martinez will eventually be a $3 million backup for Carlos Delgado.
     
  20. justicex

    justicex Registered User

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    So they make around 50 to 80 millions before the other expenditures. Thats very high, but not many teams in the 4 professional sports can bring up such net revenue. Maybe few teams in NFL and thats it.

    You cant even compare Rangers, Avs or Red Wings to Yankees because all these teams are pretty much losing money to bring powerful teams.

    But the biggest problem is that hockey TV revenues are awful. With Baseball, Basketball or Football TV revenues, the hockey would be in excellent shape.
     
  21. Trottier

    Trottier Very Random

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    Thank you for injecting those facts.

    If people want to hyperventilate about the salaries and inequalities of sports leagues, that is their right. And, there are some valid points to be made in that argument.

    However, the ABSOLUTE REFUSAL of some to acknowledge facts when making their case is insufferable. MLB, is, as you state, doing very well economically. There is a modest form of revenue sharing in place. And the median salary has decreased since the luxury tax was instituted. Why it pains some to accept these basic points is mind-boggling. Just look it up, they are avaialble for all to see. (Of course, that would detract from the demogauguing about how high payroll teams have ruined sports).

    And, of course, the $200M payroll and latest influux of bigname players for 2005 guarantees that the Yankees will dominate the baseball world...Just as it guaranteed championships for them in 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2005
  22. hockeytown9321

    hockeytown9321 Registered User

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    When was the last time the Yankees won? When was the last time a small market team won?
     
  23. DownFromNJ

    DownFromNJ Registered User

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    The 2005 Yankee team has the potential to be the best team in baseball history.

    Randy Johnson Mike Mussina Carl Pavano Jaret Wright Kevin Brown - if all of them are on their A games, that is the game's best rotation ever. Rivera/Gordon/Karsay/Quantrill/F-Rodrigez/Stanton/Koo/Sturtze is the best bullpen ever and the lineup (with or without Beltran) could be the best murders row ever.
     
  24. Devils Badvocate

    Devils Badvocate Don't be a Hayter

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    What? I don't see how you can say this when the NY Rangers are arguably an exact 'relative' comparison to the Yankees in Baseball. And to lesser degree, similar to the Red Sox & Angels, you have your Capitals, Maple Leafs, etc.
     
  25. trentmccleary

    trentmccleary Registered User

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    A loaded di doesn't always come up with the same number either.
    The Yankees might win 1 of every 3 World Series championships for the next 50 years, but that's more than enough reason to fix this mess.
    After all, I don't see the Harlem Globetrotters signing billion dollar TV deals. Who's going to watch a "sport" with a predetermined outcome?
     
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