Has Quebec City been priced out of the NHL?

[Fenway]

Quebec is really behind the eight ball. If they could get a team at the same terms Winnipeg did in 2011 they might be able to handle the debt as True North paid $170M USD in 2011 but now the NHL will be getting $650M (USD) for Seattle. That is 835 million loonies.

The person taking control of the Hurricanes has to agree to stay in Raleigh for at least 7 more seasons which I suspect is tied into the lease at PNC Arena.

If Arizona can't figure out a long term option we now have Houston lurking. So what options are left for Quebec City?

Ottawa depends entirely on the proposed downtown arena. Calgary will get a deal done, not at the terms the Flames wanted but that franchise won't move. South Florida is a market Bettman will fight for.

The Nordiques should have been able to get funding for a new arena in Quebec back in 1995 but the Canadiens moved heaven and earth to prevent that from happening. Keep in mind the Canadiens were in financial trouble then as the new Centre Molson was costing far more than expected. The baseball Expos would wind up dying in the crossfire.

@Frenchy - Nobody has to tell me how good a hockey market Quebec City was as I experienced it first hand. It is a tossup who was more inept - Marcel Aubut or Claude Brochu.

Badaboum weeps tonight

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[Bixby Snyder]

Yes, finally. Too bad it took this long but finally the NHL seems poised to head in the right direction of being a true major sports league.

 

[dechire]

Yes. They(Quebecor) were already priced out at 500m. But there's always a chance for a different owner or for Quebecor to find partners. And fortunes can turn at any time for existing teams. I don' think it' impossible for for QC to get a team but people really need to stop with the "But what about QC ?????" complaints every time the NHL rightfully considers better expansion options (ie ownership groups that can actually afford the team)

 

[madhi19]

Let see if Seattle bite at $650 million first. Unless that already lock and sealed I got a feeling Gary might have overpriced the NHL out of a bunch of markets at that price. Including Seattle.

 

[These Are The Days]

I don't believe QC has been priced out of the NHL as much as the NHL has just purposely not selected it as a serious option. Videotron Centre is consistently regarded as one of the best facilities in North America. Not that I've been there personally but I think it's prudent that we trust the people who are paid to evaluate such things. And without jumping to conclusions, it's safe to say that the QC market is foaming at the mouth for an NHL return and has been doing so since the day the Nords left town. And instead we see that the NHL is waving their hands saying "Go ahead" to Seattle after accepting a renovation?? I'm not one for conspiracy theories but there's clearly an agenda.

It's not bias, it's not discrimination and it's not even personal stance by the NHL ownership conglomerate. It's that the American northwest market is the last major region that's untapped and Seattle is BIG... BIG money waiting to happen. Seattle is still hurting bad from losing the Sonics. They want a 3rd team to cheer for and if the NHL gives it to them before the NBA then the immediate financial return (especially a TV deal) is going to be enormous. I don't know what a TV deal with Seattle is going to be worth but I have to imagine it is so lucrative that the NHL cannot ignore it. I don't have the figures in front of me but I think it's not insane to say that QC is equal to or greater the cash cow that Seattle is. But the fact remains that the state of Washington has 7 million people versus 8 million in Quebec -not all of which will support the Nordiques. But between the lack of balance of conferences, the untapped northwest market and perhaps just ownership not wanting a return to QC, the cards are in place.

I feel terrible for Bettman because people need to remember that he only does as he is told. The NHL conglomerate comes to him, tells him what to say and do and he is merely a liaison between them and the players and the fanbase. He gets a ton of heat but he has been a fantastic commissioner.

 

[TheLegend]

Let see if Seattle bite at $650 million first. Unless that already lock and sealed I got a feeling Gary might have overpriced the NHL out of a bunch of markets at that price. Including Seattle.

I would be shocked if the Seattle group didn't already know what the price was going to be weeks ago before the MOU with the city was signed..

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Let see if Seattle bite at $650 million first. Unless that already lock and sealed I got a feeling Gary might have overpriced the NHL out of a bunch of markets at that price. Including Seattle.

You...think OVG and NHL Seattle group proceeded to get the arena done...without knowing whether or not they could afford the expansion fee?

 

[SgtToody]

Seattle is BIG... BIG money waiting to happen. Seattle is still hurting bad from losing the Sonics. They want a 3rd team to cheer for and if the NHL gives it to them before the NBA then the immediate financial return (especially a TV deal) is going to be enormous.

I feel terrible for Bettman because people need to remember that he only does as he is told. The NHL conglomerate comes to him, tells him what to say and do and he is merely a liaison between them and the players and the fanbase. He gets a ton of heat but he has been a fantastic commissioner.

I'm pretty sure an NHL team is going to need some super-powered help in getting to be the 3rd favourite team in the Emerald City -- the Sounders regularly pull 40,000 plus for their games. It's getting in ahead of the NBA (like how important it was to get to Vegas before the NFL) to establish a toehold before the tsunami. I personally think Seattle will be a great franchise -- I'm in that city about 6-10 times a year for sporting events; it's not going to do the Seattle T-birds much good, although the different price point could help that franchise (but awfully shrewd of their past owners to sell this past summer). Personally, Quebec's best opportunity may be the Phoenix or Florida option, as Bettman will likely retire after the next work stoppage -- adding to his legacy.
Which brings me to the idea that a hockey fan could feel terrible for Bettman. That's sarcasm, right?

 

[These Are The Days]

I'm pretty sure an NHL team is going to need some super-powered help in getting to be the 3rd favourite team in the Emerald City -- the Sounders regularly pull 40,000 plus for their games. It's getting in ahead of the NBA (like how important it was to get to Vegas before the NFL) to establish a toehold before the tsunami. I personally think Seattle will be a great franchise -- I'm in that city about 6-10 times a year for sporting events; it's not going to do the Seattle T-birds much good, although the different price point could help that franchise (but awfully shrewd of their past owners to sell this past summer). Personally, Quebec's best opportunity may be the Phoenix or Florida option, as Bettman will likely retire after the next work stoppage -- adding to his legacy.
Which brings me to the idea that a hockey fan could feel terrible for Bettman. That's sarcasm, right?

How well supported the team will be will only be seen if a team actually hits the ice. But as for my statement about Bettman absolutely. Again, he does what he is told and the fans crucify him year after year. Fans act like Bettman comes along and says **using my best Vince McMahon voice** "YOU CALL A LOCKOUT DAMMIT!!! THE REVENUE SHARING IS DISPROPORTIONATE, THE SALARY CAP IS ESCALATING OUT OF CONTROL AND YOU TELL THAT SCUM DONALD FEHR THAT I'LL CANCEL THE SEASON!! I DID IT BEFORE AND I'LL DO IT AGAIN!!" or "WE'RE GOING TO SEATTLE AND THAT'S FINAL! QUEBEC HAD THEIR SHOT AND THOSE WORMS WILL NEVER GET A HOCKEY TEAM AGAIN FOR AS LONG AS I'M AROUND!"

That's not how it works. The owners, board of governors, et al get together and it's decided amongst themselves what teams are the next to be admitted, which ones are up to be moved, decisions regarding the playoff format and how each penny is scrupulously analyzed in how it is spent and pocketed. And at the end of the day it's Gary's job to buffer everything out. The man could climb a tree and threaten he won't come down and say "Aw crap don't tell me you're doing this again" all he wants in response to something like a lockout or unpopular expansion decision but at the end of the day he works for everyone else and not himself.

Then he comes out and states an unpopular decision and people want to grab all the lumber and nails on sale in their town and just pray Bettman comes so they can say "You wanna act like Jesus? We'll show you Jesus!" I find it to be a pitiable position despite the fact Bettman knows full and well what he's getting himself into.

 

[Fenway]

Let see if Seattle bite at $650 million first. Uanless that already lock and sealed I got a feeling Gary might have overpriced the NHL out of a bunch of markets at that price. Including Seattle.

I think it is a safe bet that the potential Seattle ownership was told what the entry fee would be and they are on board.

The way RSN's operate in the US the Pacific Northwest is rich territory and and you have 2 RSN's that can bid - ROOT Northwest and CSN Northwest. A TV contract will be lucrative as it will include Oregon as well.

Canadian cable outlets don't have the same options as they are heavily regulated on what they can charge by Canada's CRTC but in the US the FCC does not get involved.

But think about this - and yes these are Forbes numbers but.... An expansion team in Seattle would be in the Top 10 in value of all NHL teams

The Business Of Hockey

 

[willy702]

They aren't priced out, the league is just not interested in them for an expansion team.

 

[These Are The Days]

If there's an example of a poor commissioner it's Goodell of the NFL. The fact that he attempts to unilaterally instill inconsistent punishments across the league, has done little to help the anthem protest situation, has done little to stop the fire of the CTE crisis and just got himself a $200 million extension in response to all of these issues makes for a poor image at best. Granted, I don't think any commissioner before him has ever had to deal with so many issues at once but you have to find a way to make things better and the only thing I can say Goodell has done better is bring more money to the league -and to be honest anyone could've done that. All you had to do was tap the snowball at the top of the hill of money and it was gonna roll, roll, roll.

Bettman on the other hand has overseen expansion of hockey to the American South and West coast where franchises like Dallas, Nashville, Anaheim, San Jose and Tampa Bay have served as bastions of success and most of those teams have won championships. Although at the expense of an entire season he oversaw the implementation of a salary cap -which instantly brought parity to the league. Under his tenure the revenue has grown and grown despite the damage done by these lockouts and has conducted himself in the manner of a true gentleman and patron of the NHL. And most importantly the game has never been bigger. Not had he brought hockey to Tampa Bay, but because it's here we are better for it. God bless Jeff Vinik and Phil Esposito. That's all I'm gonna say. And if Stein/Zeigler didn't make it happen in 1992 then Bettman would have some years later.

Personally the only fault I can find with Bettman is that I think he comes across as a bit of a cold, calculating and smug asshole sometimes but he's not paid to be Polly Pleasant. Gary keeps it concise, professional and straight to the point of business as usual and as a consequence his image takes a hit the same way as a doctor whose job it is to tell you either you can either get this surgery now or you can wait 5 years and be forced to have it anyway and by that time it'll be with a gun to your head and everyone in the world is gonna be mad you didn't listen.

 

[viper0220]

Quebec is really behind the eight ball. If they could get a team at the same terms Winnipeg did in 2011 they might be able to handle the debt as True North paid $170M USD in 2011 but now the NHL will be getting $650M (USD) for Seattle. That is 835 million loonies.

The person taking control of the Hurricanes has to agree to stay in Raleigh for at least 7 more seasons which I suspect is tied into the lease at PNC Arena.

If Arizona can't figure out a long term option we now have Houston lurking. So what options are left for Quebec City?

Ottawa depends entirely on the proposed downtown arena. Calgary will get a deal done, not at the terms the Flames wanted but that franchise won't move. South Florida is a market Bettman will fight for.

The Nordiques should have been able to get funding for a new arena in Quebec back in 1995 but the Canadiens moved heaven and earth to prevent that from happening. Keep in mind the Canadiens were in financial trouble then as the new Centre Molson was costing far more than expected. The baseball Expos would wind up dying in the crossfire.

@Frenchy - Nobody has to tell me how good a hockey market Quebec City was as I experienced it first hand. It is a tossup who was more inept - Marcel Aubut or Claude Brochu.

Badaboum weeps tonight

View attachment 86985

I don't think that the Quebec City has been priced out, Quebec City is being saved as a soft landing, just like Winnipeg was because this is the NHL and they will f*** up some where.

Remember back to 2007, this is when the big US markets were doing good, that drove interest, the NHL could not get a big NHL tv deal, it was idiotic Rogers that pissed away 5.2 billion the NHL's way.

The Canadian dollar will go up [MOD]

Don't worry Quebec City, you will get a team, with new revenue, the cap will rise and that will hurt the money bleeding teams even more or the other thing Jeremy Jacobs and Bettman won't be around forever.

 

[Fenway]

They aren't priced out, the league is just not interested in them for an expansion team.

Jacobs has been very vocal on Quebec being too small of a market.

Bill Daly did dangle the relocation carrot to Canadian media today but realistically the only club in play is Arizona right now and Houston blows Quebec City out of the water in possible revenue streams.

I feel sadness over how this has played out. As a Bruins fan I enjoyed trips to Colisee and I worked Rendez-Vous 87 for ESPN - The pregame was a lifetime memory.

 

[Riptide]

So what options are left for Quebec City?

Likely very few. And if we're being honest, I would imagine that the city at the top of the NHL's wish list in the east would be Toronto 2/Hamilton/GTA2/etc. But with no arena, maybe Quebec City has a chance if something changes suddenly - but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Riptide]

Let see if Seattle bite at $650 million first. Unless that already lock and sealed I got a feeling Gary might have overpriced the NHL out of a bunch of markets at that price. Including Seattle.

I wonder how pissed they are that they're getting dinged an extra 30% over what LV paid. We all thought 500m was expensive and slightly absurd... 650m? Jesus. All for a span of what... 2-3 years? That said, I bet Winnipeg/TNSE is sitting back and laughing all the way to the bank. They got into the league for a cost of what... 170m?

 

[XX]

Quebec is being kept as a panic relocation option, just like Winnipeg was. QC is not a naturally desirable market to be in like Seattle or Houston.

 

[Riptide]

I don't believe QC has been priced out of the NHL as much as the NHL has just purposely not selected it as a serious option. Videotron Centre is consistently regarded as one of the best facilities in North America. Not that I've been there personally but I think it's prudent that we trust the people who are paid to evaluate such things. And without jumping to conclusions, it's safe to say that the QC market is foaming at the mouth for an NHL return and has been doing so since the day the Nords left town. And instead we see that the NHL is waving their hands saying "Go ahead" to Seattle after accepting a renovation?? I'm not one for conspiracy theories but there's clearly an agenda.

It's not bias, it's not discrimination and it's not even personal stance by the NHL ownership conglomerate. It's that the American northwest market is the last major region that's untapped and Seattle is BIG... BIG money waiting to happen. Seattle is still hurting bad from losing the Sonics. They want a 3rd team to cheer for and if the NHL gives it to them before the NBA then the immediate financial return (especially a TV deal) is going to be enormous. I don't know what a TV deal with Seattle is going to be worth but I have to imagine it is so lucrative that the NHL cannot ignore it. I don't have the figures in front of me but I think it's not insane to say that QC is equal to or greater the cash cow that Seattle is. But the fact remains that the state of Washington has 7 million people versus 8 million in Quebec -not all of which will support the Nordiques. But between the lack of balance of conferences, the untapped northwest market and perhaps just ownership not wanting a return to QC, the cards are in place.

I feel terrible for Bettman because people need to remember that he only does as he is told. The NHL conglomerate comes to him, tells him what to say and do and he is merely a liaison between them and the players and the fanbase. He gets a ton of heat but he has been a fantastic commissioner.

I'll start with this. Your last paragraph, while I think you'll catch shit for it from a bunch of angry posters, who point out the lockouts and whatnot... I think you're dead on. The game is a much much better product today then what we had 15 years ago - and that's due to Bettman and him securing a salary cap. He's not a saint and there's things he could do better (better revenue sharing for one), but a large part of why we have the league we have today is from him.

Now as to the rest of your post. Here's the question. How many of those 8m people in Quebec already watch hockey? How many already spend some sort of money on any sort of NHL merchandise (Canadians or some other team)? How many already subscribe to some sort of specialty channel to watch their team (if it's not MTL/OTT)? Basically, how many of them will be "new" fans who never spent a cent on the NHL?

The NHL is looking for the biggest revenue boost possible. And while I'm certain that there's already a bunch of people in Seattle/PNW who spend money on the NHL in some way, I'm also certain that it's significantly less then those in Quebec. You put a team in Quebec, and you'll absolutely get new money and new fans. But you'll also be taking money and fans away from Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto or whomever. And instead of QC fans watching whatever game they were going to watch, they'll instead watch the QC game. Great for the local team, but it comes at a cost. How much more is the Canadian TV deal going to pay if we get an eight team? How much more are QC advertisers going to pay that they're not already paying to Montreal? Now switch that to Seattle/PNW. Like in QC, there's already going to be fans there, so Vancouver or whomever these guys cheer for and watch (like in QC) will suffer a little. But I think it's a pretty safe bet that the vast majority are not fans, and are not already spending money. And then there's what getting a ton of new fans in this large under served area will do to the US TV deal (which is up in 20/21).

People ask why does this matter? The NHL doesn't get to keep the money - it all goes to the team (or in large part anyway). And in that regard they're correct. QC would be a successful team financially. Not Toronto or Vancouver/Edmonton level, but probably at least Winnipeg/Ottawa level. Seattle might not ever get there - and if they do it will take years. But the potential for money that will come to the NHL via central revenues will be significantly greater in Seattle then in QC. Yes most of this money will go to the individual team. But the NHL as a whole will still see a bump coming to central revenues - mainly through advertisers/sponsors and the new US TV deal - and this is money that they wouldn't get from QC. QC would see it (local sponsors, local broadcast deal, etc), but that only benefits them, it doesn't benefit the rest of the league, like a bump to central revenues would. And this is why the rest of the league salivates over getting into the PNW vs putting a second team into Quebec.

This might take a long time... but if the NHL can leverage Seattle into a better US TV deal - that's something that benefits the entire league. And while one can say the same about the Canadian TV deal, I'm just not sure how much richer it can get - at some point you're going to be tapped out.

 

[Fenway]

Quebec is being kept as a panic relocation option, just like Winnipeg was. QC is not a naturally desirable market to be in like Seattle or Houston.

The problem is Houston is now the market in waiting.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Yes, they have.

 

[Acesolid]

I don't think that the Quebec City has been priced out, Quebec City is being saved as a soft landing, just like Winnipeg was because this is the NHL and they will **** up some where.

Remember back to 2007, this is when the big US markets were doing good, that drove interest, the NHL could not get a big NHL tv deal, it was idiotic Rogers that pissed away 5.2 billion the NHL's way.

The Canadian dollar will go up [MOD]

Don't worry Quebec City, you will get a team, with new revenue, the cap will rise and that will hurt the money bleeding teams even more or the other thing Jeremy Jacobs and Bettman won't be around forever.

I disagree, [MOD] Look at the stock market. Things are really, really looking up economically for the US. As an impartial Québécois. I'd say with their brillant tax reform I predict significant growth and job creatiom in the short-medium term in the US.

As for not gettong a team, as I've often said, it's not my loss, it's the NHL's. My money is going to other activities other then going to NHL Hockey games, it's their loss.

We'll see. But especially with a booming economy in the next few years at least, I dont see chaos in the NHL's front window. However, some teams are endless money losers. And that's not a permanent state of affairs in my opinion. So we'll see if there's always a new sucker owner who'll "turn things around" for perpetually money losing teams.

 

[Nordskull]

I believe Carolina was Qc best chance to land something.

I dont see any team moving north in the next 10 years at least, if not more. Panthers will stay put, and the Islanders will never leave the state of NY.

At this moment, if I'd be at Qcor head staff, unless a garantee been given, I'd start looking at another product to put on the ice.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Now as to the rest of your post. Here's the question. How many of those 8m people in Quebec already watch hockey? How many already spend some sort of money on any sort of NHL merchandise (Canadians or some other team)? How many already subscribe to some sort of specialty channel to watch their team (if it's not MTL/OTT)? Basically, how many of them will be "new" fans who never spent a cent on the NHL?

The NHL is looking for the biggest revenue boost possible. And while I'm certain that there's already a bunch of people in Seattle/PNW who spend money on the NHL in some way, I'm also certain that it's significantly less then those in Quebec. You put a team in Quebec, and you'll absolutely get new money and new fans. But you'll also be taking money and fans away from Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto or whomever. And instead of QC fans watching whatever game they were going to watch, they'll instead watch the QC game. Great for the local team, but it comes at a cost. How much more is the Canadian TV deal going to pay if we get an eight team? How much more are QC advertisers going to pay that they're not already paying to Montreal? Now switch that to Seattle/PNW. Like in QC, there's already going to be fans there, so Vancouver or whomever these guys cheer for and watch (like in QC) will suffer a little. But I think it's a pretty safe bet that the vast majority are not fans, and are not already spending money. And then there's what getting a ton of new fans in this large under served area will do to the US TV deal (which is up in 20/21).

While I agree with the premise of Seattle being "virgin ground", but if there isn't any gold in the dirt, then it is worthless virgin ground. Not saying Seattle is worthless.

I am not all that familiar with either market. But, yes in Quebec City it is only logical to think they already have many people watching/spending on the NHL. The question is, how much?

1) How many old Nords fans became fans of the Canadiens or another team when the Nords left? How many of those fans would switch back to a new Quebec team the moment it is announced?

2) How many old Nords fans still watch the NHL, but do not have a favorite team and do not buy/wear any NHL merchandise?

3) How many stopped watching the NHL altogether, but would come back if Quebec got a team?

I am thinking the answer to those questions is higher than you think.

As far as Seattle, the city might WANT a 3rd team, but will that translate into the big revenues? Will the novelty wear off? Will enough people become big enough fans to make the franchise thrive or will they have the group of die-hards and then a bunch of people who just need something to fill the time between Seahawks and Mariners season? If the NBA comes back, will the old Sonics fans get nostalgia and begin to forget about the hockey team? Secondly, are these new fans going to spend money after the initial surge? I remember a few months ago someone posted an article showing Vegas was the leader in recent merchandise sales and that was somehow an indicator that the market will work. Well, not really. I already have plenty of Rangers stuff and I am not going out every year and re-stocking everything. I have a few t-shirts, 2 hoodies, a jacket, a few hats, 2 polos. Not as if I am buying that stuff every year. Now, I might buy 1 t-shirt in a year. So while a new team in Seattle will have people buying things left and right, it will be a short spike and then quickly normalize.

 

[ckg927]

[MOD]

Yes, QC's likely been priced out of the NHL....and it's likely being used as a soft landing for SOME team that's in dire straits. I still think it's Carolina, the new owner's words that the team will be staying in Raleigh notwithstanding.

 

[patnyrnyg]

I disagree, [MOD]. Look at the stock market. Things are really, really looking up economically for the US. As an impartial Québécois. I'd say with their brillant tax reform I predict significant growth and job creatiom in the short-medium term in the US.

I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.