Hanging on a pipe dream: Is another NHL team coming to Toronto?

[Bookie21]

650 million is an over inflated price tag for a new arena in the Hamilton area it is more like to be closer to be tops half that price to be around 350 million for a new arena in the Hamilton area or just completely renovate the FOC. & get another 35+ years out of the arena for about 200-250 million to get it up to NHL. standards .

I would choose to renovate the building just because it is already in the perfect location in downtown Hamilton already with being attached to a mall (Jackson Square) that has a hotel, bars , resturaunts , shops & parking but a new arena might be cheaper in the long run but if Hamilton gets the 2030 commonwealth games who cares because it will 100% Government funded .

$350 million CDN isn't going to get you a suitable NHL arena......it would be bare bones, with no bells and whistles

 

[JMROWE]

It depends on land value construction cost in which every city is different some higher & some lower for example Tim Horton's field at 25.000 seats for instances is not bare bones stadium yet it only cost 147 million in Hamilton while in any other city like a Toronto (GTA.) or Vancouver for example a new stadium that size would be double the cost in those cities so it really depends on the city .

In my opinion I think the city should just renovate or gut the arena because when it was first built it was built with future renovations & upgrades in mind if do it now it would cost about 250 million because when you think about it the FOC. is most likely in the best location right now with the arena pretty much attached to a mall with a hotel ,shops , bars , restaurants & parking can't get much better than that & so this what I think they should do move the Bulldogs to a temporary location for couple of years while the arena undergoes renovations & hopefully within the next 10 years Hamilton (southern Ontario regional) will get that NHL. team back they lost 95 years ago.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

It depends on land value construction cost in which every city is different some higher & some lower for example Tim Horton's field at 25.000 seats for instances is not bare bones stadium yet it only cost 147 million in Hamilton while in any other city like a Toronto (GTA.) or Vancouver for example a new stadium that size would be double the cost in those cities so it really depends on the city .

In my opinion I think the city should just renovate or gut the arena because when it was first built it was built with future renovations & upgrades in mind if do it now it would cost about 250 million because when you think about it the FOC. is most likely in the best location right now with the arena pretty much attached to a mall with a hotel ,shops , bars , restaurants & parking can't get much better than that & so this what I think they should do move the Bulldogs to a temporary location for couple of years while the arena undergoes renovations & hopefully within the next 10 years Hamilton (southern Ontario regional) will get that NHL. team back they lost 95 years ago.

If land value of Hamilton is that low, that just seems like a damning indictment on the city itself. Attractive cities with bustling economies tend to have higher land values.

 

[GuelphStormer]

If land value of Hamilton is that low, that just seems like a damning indictment on the city itself. Attractive cities with bustling economies tend to have higher land values.

it's not that low. his post is ridiculous.

 

[57special]

Hamilton deserves a franchise. It is a place that has always had its own identity, has doubled in population since its last kick at the franchise can, and can draw on a very large population of medium sized cities within a one hour drive. BUF would be the one to complain, just like last time, as they would worry that CAN ticket holders would switch allegiance to the new team.

It's a no brainer. The rivalry with the Leafs would be intense, and automatic. .

 

[Voight]

Hamilton deserves a franchise

The problem is the cost just to get started.

Expansion fee would be 750 million+, they'd also have to cut the Leafs a massive cheque for encroaching on their territory. Possible the Sabres as well.

So right away they would in the hole for $1 billion.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Hamilton deserves a franchise. It is a place that has always had its own identity, has doubled in population since its last kick at the franchise can, and can draw on a very large population of medium sized cities within a one hour drive. BUF would be the one to complain, just like last time, as they would worry that CAN ticket holders would switch allegiance to the new team.

It's a no brainer. The rivalry with the Leafs would be intense, and automatic. .

There's been half a dozen markets over the last 20 years that have deserved a NHL franchise. Hamilton is nothing special. Deserving has absolutely nothing to do with receiving.

 

[57special]

Hamilton is a place where they live and breathe hockey. They don't have to be coerced into going, like they do in ARI, and FLA. It took them 48 hours to sell 10,000 seasons tickets in the 80's. Ottawa and FLA(TBL?) took months, and even then the league lowered the bar to 5,000 for them.

The hate for TOR in Hamilton, Brantford, Guelph, Kitchener Waterloo, London,,St. Kits, Niagara Falls, etc.. Would be glorious to behold on the ice.

 

[GuelphStormer]

There's been half a dozen markets over the last 20 years that have deserved a NHL franchise. Hamilton is nothing special. Deserving has absolutely nothing to do with receiving.

I think one of the things that most irks folks from Hamilton is that during the '90 expansion process, Hamilton was seen as the front-runner, with a new arena and a deep-pocket owner in Ron Joyce. Joyce expressed reservation about the league's insistence on paying the full $50M fee prior to the team arriving and moreover, the league insisted that Joyce accept the deal without any indemnification amount (to leafs) specified. He walked away because of those demands and uncertainty - in hindsight, a big mistake.

Both winning bids in Tampa Bay and Ottawa turns out, lied to the BoG about their financing (and arenas), and failed to satisfy the same payment requirements that Joyce expressed concern about. In other words, Tampa Bay and Ottawa both cheated the process but were still given franchises.

Doesn't mean anyone "deserves" anything, but Hamilton got royally burned back then.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I think one of the things that most irks folks from Hamilton is that during the '90 expansion process, Hamilton was seen as the front-runner, with a new arena and a deep-pocket owner in Ron Joyce. Joyce expressed reservation about the league's insistence on paying the full $50M fee prior to the team arriving and moreover, the league insisted that Joyce accept the deal without any indemnification amount (to leafs) specified. He walked away because of those demands and uncertainty - in hindsight, a big mistake.

Both winning bids in Tampa Bay and Ottawa turns out, lied to the BoG about their financing (and arenas), and failed to satisfy the same payment requirements that Joyce expressed concern about. In other words, Tampa Bay and Ottawa both cheated the process but were still given franchises.

Doesn't mean anyone "deserves" anything, but Hamilton got royally burned back then.

Hamilton doesn't stand out in that regard either. Plenty of places have been burned as well.

Hartford gave Karmanos the season ticket count and arena he wanted in order to stay. He left a few weeks after.

Milwaukee was a few signatures away from buying a NHL expansion franchise, and was even ready to pay off the territory fee to the Blackhawks. But the owners backed off when they found out how much expansion draft rules at the time favored existing teams. They would have been an excellent NHL market.

Québec City had their bid deferred, and then outright ignored when the expansion process shut down. They had the door slammed in their faces worse than anybody.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

it's not that low. his post is ridiculous.

That’s what I thought.

 

[robertocarlos]

Thomson backed the Jets with Toronto in mind as a future home for the Jets.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Thomson backed the Jets with Toronto in mind as a future home for the Jets.

The ultimate conspiracy theory.

 

[saffronleaf]

I understand that Bettman, Jacobs and co. will never allow this to happen but it would be awesome if it did. There are so many possibilities and I have zero doubt that it would make endless money. It will also keep hockey more relevant. As much as hockey is big in the region the lack of affordability to attend games means that many kids and newcomers have never seen a Leafs game and are more likely to see Raptors games.

I would like it if the SBA was reserved for the Raptors and concerts. Have a hockey specific arena (with good ice!!) for the Leafs and Toronto 2 (I think Toronto Trillium would be a nice name), as well as their AHL affiliates. The Clippers and Lakers share an arena.

Toronto 2 should be in the central division. Most Leafs fans would cheer it on as their second team. And Toronto has even more Leafs haters than Leafs fans, so for them it could become their first team.

Of course we know none of this will happen. More likely that Bettman puts a team in Guadalajara Mexico than one in Canada or Toronto. They already dislike the Leafs (look at the major snubbing the Leafs got for their 100th anniversary, mocking Leafs fans re playoffs format, picking a game that humiliates the Leafs for the game of the decade, etc.) If anything, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Leafs moved to somewhere where hockey has tremendous growth potential, like Qatar or Congo.

It's times like these that I wish Canada had its own national hockey league. It might be possible after 2050. Canada should have about 50 million people by then. Maybe that'll be enough people and businesses to make a Canadian league workable. Probably not and either way that's off topic.

 

[saffronleaf]

Hamilton deserves a franchise. It is a place that has always had its own identity, has doubled in population since its last kick at the franchise can, and can draw on a very large population of medium sized cities within a one hour drive. BUF would be the one to complain, just like last time, as they would worry that CAN ticket holders would switch allegiance to the new team.

It's a no brainer. The rivalry with the Leafs would be intense, and automatic. .

Would love to see both a Hamilton team and a second Toronto team in downtown. One where normal people (including especially low income people, middle income people, newcomers, kids, young families, etc) can actually attend and watch hockey in what is supposed to be the mecca of hockey. Put it in the Western Conference.

 

[saffronleaf]

Hamilton is a place where they live and breathe hockey. They don't have to be coerced into going, like they do in ARI, and FLA. It took them 48 hours to sell 10,000 seasons tickets in the 80's. Ottawa and FLA(TBL?) took months, and even then the league lowered the bar to 5,000 for them.

The hate for TOR in Hamilton, Brantford, Guelph, Kitchener Waterloo, London,,St. Kits, Niagara Falls, etc.. Would be glorious to behold on the ice.

That is the biggest problem that Hamilton has -- Hamilton has many hockey fans. Bettman is looking for tremendous growth opportunities so ideally there should be zero hockey fans. Hockey should be entirely alien to the market and the butt end of jokes. Then when half a dozen paying customers show up Bettman can boast about 600% growth etc

 

[saffronleaf]

So to summarize...is there a reasonable chance Toronto gets a second team?

It will never happen. Far more likely that the Leafs are relocated to Hawaii or Mali. Tremendous growth potential. NHL hates serving existing hockey fans, especially in Canada.

The only reason Bettman and Jacobs still allow the Leafs in the league is so that they can get funding for their monstrous tropical experiments

 

[sabremike]

Hamilton deserves a franchise. It is a place that has always had its own identity, has doubled in population since its last kick at the franchise can, and can draw on a very large population of medium sized cities within a one hour drive. BUF would be the one to complain, just like last time, as they would worry that CAN ticket holders would switch allegiance to the new team.

It's a no brainer. The rivalry with the Leafs would be intense, and automatic. .

I'm so sick of people who constantly push the narrative that Hamilton would have a team if not for those evil Americans across the Peace Bridge because it's complete nonsense. For starters the estimated number of Sabres STH's from Canada is roughly 10-13%. The team had a huge waiting list for years until the idiocy of the Pegula Error (and technically still does, just that people have the option of passing and waiting until the seats they want open up. Really people are passing because the team is an embarrassment to the sport at this point) so there is far more than enough demand regardless of a Hamilton team. Also the places in Canada with Sabres fans are in the 10 or so miles from the border and despite being in another country are really part of the Buffalo sports market (for example Rick Jeanneret is from St Catherine's). The Leafs and MLSE are the reason Hamilton will never get a team. Same reason that if someone tried to move an NFL team to the area by Citi Field or even Nassau Coliseum the Giants and Jets would have it shot down instantly.

 

[93LEAFS]

Hamilton deserves a franchise. It is a place that has always had its own identity, has doubled in population since its last kick at the franchise can, and can draw on a very large population of medium sized cities within a one hour drive. BUF would be the one to complain, just like last time, as they would worry that CAN ticket holders would switch allegiance to the new team.

It's a no brainer. The rivalry with the Leafs would be intense, and automatic. .

Hamilton is a place where they live and breathe hockey. They don't have to be coerced into going, like they do in ARI, and FLA. It took them 48 hours to sell 10,000 seasons tickets in the 80's. Ottawa and FLA(TBL?) took months, and even then the league lowered the bar to 5,000 for them.

The hate for TOR in Hamilton, Brantford, Guelph, Kitchener Waterloo, London,,St. Kits, Niagara Falls, etc.. Would be glorious to behold on the ice.

The Leafs aren't letting anyone move in on the wealthy western suburbs of Toronto. Also, most hockey fans in Guelph, Kitchener, and Waterloo are Leafs fans. London is split between Leafs/Detroit, and Niagara Falls is closer to Buffalo than Hamilton. The medium sized cities they will try pulling people from are Burlington, Oakville, and Sauga. Vaughan is only 45 minutes away due to the 407.

Hate for Toronto is primarily a rural, Quebec or Western-Canada thing.

Secondly, the issue no one seems to be touching. Look at how the Leafs treated the Senators when they moved in in-regards to a TV deal (Unlike Alberta, each Ontario team has a clear defined local region that heavily favors the Leafs). On top of that, the two companies that Hamilton needs on its side for a good TV deal are Bell or Rogers, who own the Leafs and have almost no incentive to let the territorial rights they control be carved up or shared. Any team coming into Southern Ontario needs the mutual support of Bell and Rogers, and for both of them to be open to somehow allowing a second team and potentially a second stadium open. The odds of those two things happening, combined with the odds of someone paying the required amount to get a team to Hamilton are minuscule. It is simply not a big enough market to get Bell/Rogers to both play ball.

 

[93LEAFS]

I'm so sick of people who constantly push the narrative that Hamilton would have a team if not for those evil Americans across the Peace Bridge because it's complete nonsense. For starters the estimated number of Sabres STH's from Canada is roughly 10-13%. The team had a huge waiting list for years until the idiocy of the Pegula Error (and technically still does, just that people have the option of passing and waiting until the seats they want open up. Really people are passing because the team is an embarrassment to the sport at this point) so there is far more than enough demand regardless of a Hamilton team. Also the places in Canada with Sabres fans are in the 10 or so miles from the border and despite being in another country are really part of the Buffalo sports market (for example Rick Jeanneret is from St Catherine's). The Leafs and MLSE are the reason Hamilton will never get a team. Same reason that if someone tried to move an NFL team to the area by Citi Field or even Nassau Coliseum the Giants and Jets would have it shot down instantly.

I doubt the Sabres want anyone putting up any issues with their claim to a TV deal in the Niagara region or devaluing it. Simply put, while it may not do significant damage to the Sabres, it provides a limited upside to them at best.

 

[57special]

Sorry, but I lived in Hamilton, and my folks are from rural Ontario(think Letterkenny). The hate, or resentment, for TO is real. As are line ups at the border. The bottom line is that there are PLENTY of hockey fans to go around in southern Ontario.

I take your point that the Leafs might not want to share, though it was Buffalo that was the main objector to Hamilton getting a franchise the last time around. Pure greed, IMO. How big and long of a season's ticket waiting list do the TML's need ? Is it a 60 year wait now, or even longer?

 

[saffronleaf]

Sorry, but I lived in Hamilton, and my folks are from rural Ontario(think Letterkenny). The hate, or resentment, for TO is real. As are line ups at the border. The bottom line is that there are PLENTY of hockey fans to go around in southern Ontario.

I take your point that the Leafs might not want to share, though it was Buffalo that was the main objector to Hamilton getting a franchise the last time around. Pure greed, IMO. How big and long of a season's ticket waiting list do the TML's need ? Is it a 60 year wait now, or even longer?

It will never happen. The NHL is only concerned about growth. They'd rather have 5 people in Mexico City paid to show up to a game there than put a team in a rabid Canadian hockey market.

 

[93LEAFS]

Sorry, but I lived in Hamilton, and my folks are from rural Ontario(think Letterkenny). The hate, or resentment, for TO is real. As are line ups at the border. The bottom line is that there are PLENTY of hockey fans to go around in southern Ontario.

I take your point that the Leafs might not want to share, though it was Buffalo that was the main objector to Hamilton getting a franchise the last time around. Pure greed, IMO. How big and long of a season's ticket waiting list do the TML's need ? Is it a 60 year wait now, or even longer?

It is not about the tickets. It is completely about complete control of the GTA's local television rights. Which is the entire reason Bell/Rogers bought the Leafs so they didn't go completely nuts bidding for local rights.

How long ago did you live in Hamilton? The make-up of those areas is dramatically shifting with the rapid growth of the GTA. The GTA has basically grown into Hamilton. An NHL team in Hamilton is going to significantly infringe on the Leafs territorial television rights. And, yes, its greed, the NHL is a business, and MLSE is 70% owner by publicly traded companies. They are obviously going to work in their own interests. Why the hell would Rogers/Bell let there local TV market be shared?

 

[JMROWE]

Let me tell you something this is fact the CFL's Hamilton Tiger Cats & Toronto Argonauts have been living side by side for over 150 years what has happened nothing & there the oldest rivalry in pro sports & you add NHL. hockey to the mix it has a chance to be just as blood thirsty as the Ticats & Argos .

In My opinion the Leafs (MLSE.) are not the problem Buffalo & Jacobs are because the leafs market is so huge a NHL. team in Hamilton (Southern Ontario regional team) is far enough away that it dose not concern them as for Buffalo there great protector in Bruins owner Jeremey Jacobs is out of the pitcher it might be easier to get over that Buffalo hurdle now .

 

[sabremike]

Let me tell you something this is fact the CFL's Hamilton Tiger Cats & Toronto Argonauts have been living side by side for over 150 years what has happened nothing & there the oldest rivalry in pro sports & you add NHL. hockey to the mix it has a chance to be just as blood thirsty as the Ticats & Argos .

In My opinion the Leafs (MLSE.) are not the problem Buffalo & Jacobs are because the leafs market is so huge a NHL. team in Hamilton (Southern Ontario regional team) is far enough away that it dose not concern them as for Buffalo there great protector in Bruins owner Jeremey Jacobs is out of the pitcher it might be easier to get over that Buffalo hurdle now .

This sums up the state of the Argos: I am a Cats STH who travels up from NYC for games. My bus goes to Toronto, and as I walked around the city before getting the Go Bus down to the Hammer wearing my jersey I think every 3rd person I encountered shouted "Oskie Wee Wee!" at me. The Argos are basically on life support at this point, and even though they are our hated rival it is really sad to see.