Hanging on a pipe dream: Is another NHL team coming to Toronto?

BKIslandersFan

F*** off
Sep 29, 2017
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5,058
Brooklyn
The success of TFC is the best indicator that the market is much stronger than most people anticipate. TFC is one of the strongest teams in the league directly because of its location.

I'd argue the Raptors might edge out the Leafs, which is exactly why the NHL should think twice of starving out the market.
You have yet to explain the correlation of other sports becoming popular in Toronto with justifying giving GTA another team.

A Leafs fan would have no problem also rooting for Raptors or TFC. They are not going to root for the new Toronto NHL team.
 

BKIslandersFan

F*** off
Sep 29, 2017
11,443
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Brooklyn
Today I learned all people in Toronto are Leafs fans. Good to know.
You are assuming people who are not Leafs fans even like hockey. Not everyone in Canada likes hockey.

And if they are not Leafs fans but they are hockey fans chances are they root for someone else. And will not pony up season ticket money. They will just go to games that their favorite team is in.

And you have yet to explain how rise of soccer and basketball in GTA means NHL should give the area another team.
 

Pyrophorus

Registered User
Jun 1, 2009
26,197
2,905
Eastern GTA
The only way TO2 happens is when the unholy alliance of Bell & Rogers cannot co-exist any longer. One will “sell” the other their shares in mlse in exchange for splitting the market. Only way it will work

Why would one leave, and then take a flier/risk, when they have security now.
 

rfournier103

Black & Gold ‘till I’m Dead & Cold.
Sponsor
Dec 17, 2011
8,276
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Massachusetts
How does Toronto get its second team? Expansion? Relocation?

The NHL already has 32 teams. Toronto Part Deux becomes number 33?

Too many teams already. I’d say that between the Leafs and the rest of the NHL, Ontario is pretty well saturated as it is. A second team would be a waste.
 

Whalers Fan

Go Habs!
Sep 24, 2012
3,916
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Plymouth, MI
It's also the cost of setting up a team that affects this. A lot of money needs to be invested which needs a decent return. The business case to set up a new team has to be profitable, not wait a decade for return on investment. It costs a lot more to set up a team now than in the past.

The LA Kings originally cost $2M to be set up as one of the original six added teams in 1967. The Anaheim Ducks were established in 1992 for next to nothing except for the $50M invasion fee they had to pay the Kings. The Ducks original roster salary total was only $7.9M. It was a lot less expensive with less money to add a team then than it is now.

Also keep in mind that the California/Oakland Seals was a second team added to California in Oakland (San Francisco) in 1967 but failed because they were unsuccessful at the gate. The Seals eventually became part of the Minnesota North Stars. In other words, the first attempt at two teams in California failed.

San Francisco and Los Angeles are two completely different markets. Success or failure in one has nothing to do with the other. Being in the same state is meaningless. It would be like saying that Buffalo and NYC are the same market because they are in the same state -- or Dallas and Houston, St. Louis and Kansas City, etc.
 

Cacciaguida

Registered User
Jan 11, 2010
1,620
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Ottawa
There was a poll on the Leafs board a few years back.
Only one said they would switch
That's the Leafs board. Why would people who are interested enough to go to dedicated boards be willing to switch?
Try that poll among the general population instead of a controlled environment.

The people who are annoyed/tired of the Leafs aren't going to Maple Leaf fourms. They're avoiding them.

If Toronto isn't willing to root for a second team. It just proves my point that Hamilton would be a better option, because people in Hamilton would be willing to root for a Hamilton-centric team.
 

BKIslandersFan

F*** off
Sep 29, 2017
11,443
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Brooklyn
If Toronto isn't willing to root for a second team. It just proves my point that Hamilton would be a better option, because people in Hamilton would be willing to root for a Hamilton-centric team.
Maybe.

But the entire project that this thread is about, revolves around building an arena in Toronto, not Hamilton. And its not just about getting an NHL tenant.
 

Pyrophorus

Registered User
Jun 1, 2009
26,197
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Eastern GTA
That's the Leafs board. Why would people who are interested enough to go to dedicated boards be willing to switch?
Try that poll among the general population instead of a controlled environment.

The people who are annoyed/tired of the Leafs aren't going to Maple Leaf fourms. They're avoiding them.

If Toronto isn't willing to root for a second team. It just proves my point that Hamilton would be a better option, because people in Hamilton would be willing to root for a Hamilton-centric team.

You better hope, that they lots of money for us and for the Sabres.
The payment maybe more than the worth of the franchise.

I'm sure the bolded happens elsewhere as well. Fans aren't that much different.
 

aqib

Registered User
Feb 13, 2012
5,135
1,148
You are assuming people who are not Leafs fans even like hockey. Not everyone in Canada likes hockey.

And if they are not Leafs fans but they are hockey fans chances are they root for someone else. And will not pony up season ticket money. They will just go to games that their favorite team is in.

And you have yet to explain how rise of soccer and basketball in GTA means NHL should give the area another team.

The GTA adds over 100K people per year. Not all of them come from places that have teams. Leafs tickets cost a fortune so if you're a family of 4 its a $600 night to go to a Leafs game. If Toronto2 costs $350 for a family of 4 I could see lots of people opting to take their kids to that game instead of a Leafs game. Also Toronto's growth is sprawling in all directions so another team would carve out its own area. Now yes a lot of us in Toronto are fans of other teams and would go to see our other team play, but thats pretty much the case for any new team.

The rise of the other sports shows that if you put a sports team in Toronto fans show up.
 

JianYang

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
17,752
16,116
Honestly the absurd expansion fees are the only reason I think this has a chance in hell of happening.

My understanding is that the leafs have no direct way of blocking the team.

And I can't think of another city where a billion dollar expansion fee might make sense.

I'm not sure how the league would turn down an option that generates them 30-40 million each.

So if hamilton wanted a team, does it stand true that the leafs cannot block that from happening? And if they can, why cant they do that to another toronto team?
 

JianYang

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
17,752
16,116
Yup the only way this happens is if Rogers and Bell break up.

Easy to imagine there being plenty of fans. Tickets would be pricey but still a great deal compared to the Leafs. And there are an awful lot of people in Toronto from other places that are not Leafs fans.

Would be smart to go with a trendy urban vibe for the new team. Leafs are the establishment. New team is where the cool kids go.

Could a 2nd toronto team actually affect buffalo more than anyone else? From what I gather, buffalo has a fanbase in southern Ontario, and they even play the canadian anthem down there every home game.

Could that fanbase be swayed?
 

JMROWE

Registered User
Apr 2, 2010
1,372
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Hamilton Ontario
There is no chance MLSE. (Leafs) will let another NHL. team take root so close to there front door not to mention the astronomic cost that it will take to make it happen well over a billion dollars .

Look if there is going to be a 2nd NHL. team in southern Ontario it is going to be in the Hamilton area because it will be more cost effective , Hamilton's population growth to over million by 2030 & Hamilton should be shoe in for the 2030 commonwealth games & as part of the bid would be a new NHL. ready arena on the government dime so think about it all the cost will be paying off buffalo & the team it self .

Oh by the way most of Hamilton's growth is people leaving Toronto for the Hamilton area do to cheap housing & lower taxes .
 

93LEAFS

Registered User
Nov 7, 2009
33,841
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Toronto
The GTA adds over 100K people per year. Not all of them come from places that have teams. Leafs tickets cost a fortune so if you're a family of 4 its a $600 night to go to a Leafs game. If Toronto2 costs $350 for a family of 4 I could see lots of people opting to take their kids to that game instead of a Leafs game. Also Toronto's growth is sprawling in all directions so another team would carve out its own area. Now yes a lot of us in Toronto are fans of other teams and would go to see our other team play, but thats pretty much the case for any new team.

The rise of the other sports shows that if you put a sports team in Toronto fans show up.
Teams live and die by season ticket base. They don't live off casual fans showing up once or twice a year. How many of these 100k new arrivals are going to be in an economic position to splitting a 1/2 season ticket bundle within 5 years? Even a 1/4 seasons.

Raptors and Leafs do insanely well because they are the event to go to and are located near a significant portion of the high-paying corporate jobs in this city. Jays have been at times, and while the oversized stadium makes it look more desolate than it actually is, their attendance isn't really much to brag about the past 2 seasons.

There is no chance MLSE. (Leafs) will let another NHL. team take root so close to there front door not to mention the astronomic cost that it will take to make it happen well over a billion dollars .

Look if there is going to be a 2nd NHL. team in southern Ontario it is going to be in the Hamilton area because it will be more cost effective , Hamilton's population growth to over million by 2030 & Hamilton should be shoe in for the 2030 commonwealth games & as part of the bid would be a new NHL. ready arena on the government dime so think about it all the cost will be paying off buffalo & the team it self .

Oh by the way most of Hamilton's growth is people leaving Toronto for the Hamilton area do to cheap housing & lower taxes .
MLSE also isn't going to let a team set-up shop near wealthy western suburbs or encourage the idea of a competing arena for concerts they do not own. The only way GTA2 happens is if Bell and Rogers decide to split up, add a 3rd tennent to the ACC (or Scotia Bank Arena now). But, that is highly unlikely to happen because they would one have to figure out how to split Raptors and TFC while disolving their partnership, and two they have limited need for a 3rd SBA anchor tennent because of the amount of concerts.
 

Pyrophorus

Registered User
Jun 1, 2009
26,197
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Eastern GTA
So if hamilton wanted a team, does it stand true that the leafs cannot block that from happening? And if they can, why cant they do that to another toronto team?

They can't block it, regulation wise
However; they can set the fees to infringing on their market-and those will be exorbitant.
The latter is more a problem, than the former.
Hamilton also infringes on Buffalo's area as well.
 

Pyrophorus

Registered User
Jun 1, 2009
26,197
2,905
Eastern GTA
Teams live and die by season ticket base. They don't live off casual fans showing up once or twice a year. How many of these 100k new arrivals are going to be in an economic position to splitting a 1/2 season ticket bundle within 5 years? Even a 1/4 seasons.

Raptors and Leafs do insanely well because they are the event to go to and are located near a significant portion of the high-paying corporate jobs in this city. Jays have been at times, and while the oversized stadium makes it look more desolate than it actually is, their attendance isn't really much to brag about the past 2 seasons.


MLSE also isn't going to let a team set-up shop near wealthy western suburbs or encourage the idea of a competing arena for concerts they do not own. The only way GTA2 happens is if Bell and Rogers decide to split up, add a 3rd tennent to the ACC (or Scotia Bank Arena now). But, that is highly unlikely to happen because they would one have to figure out how to split Raptors and TFC while disolving their partnership, and two they have limited need for a 3rd SBA anchor tennent because of the amount of concerts.

WHY WOULD EITHER LEAVE A CASH COW?
 

93LEAFS

Registered User
Nov 7, 2009
33,841
20,900
Toronto
WHY WOULD EITHER LEAVE A CASH COW?
Well, if one decided that they would make more money having 100% of a new NHL franchise, compared to 35% of the Leafs they currently own (and unless you can get Kilmer Sports out, they'll never have more than 70% ownership). But, Raptors, SBA, and TFC would have to be split into a new partnership. Neither is letting exclusive rights to Raptors games nationally go to either partner. It's unlikely, but those would be the reasons they would entertain it. But, we are talking about two massive corporate rivals who likely couldn't trust each other enough to pull it off. The main issue is the Leafs TV rights. I mean, you'll potentially come out ahead maintaing a split on Raptors and getting 100% of the Revenue of a team over the 35% you currently get. You don't run the risk of a new competiting arena killing concert revenue, you maintain Raptors and you get a team. The main issue is neither probably wants either having full possession of local Leafs TV rights. But, that's the only solution that makes sense. The last thing either Bell or Rogers wants is a competing team with a newer arena killing concert revenue.
 
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canuckster19

Former CDC Mod
Sep 23, 2008
3,471
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Gothenburg Sweden
Here’s a hypothetical, if the league for whatever reason decided in the future that only the west will play the west and east vs east in the regular season, could the Leafs be allowed to own two teams? Toronto Maple Leafs WC ? Of course there would have to be rules in place that they can’t trade with each other and likely special rules for their minor clubs. Imagine the possibilities, double header games in the ACC, Leafs vs Canadiens at 7:00, Leafs WC vs Canucks at 10:00.
 

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