Hanging on a pipe dream: Is another NHL team coming to Toronto?

[JMROWE]

Hamilton stands a good chance at getting the 2030 Commonwealth games since it will be 100 years since first games & those games where held in Hamilton also part of the 2030 bid is either a new NHL. sized arena or a renovated FOC. either way it is on the government dime so we should know sometime in the new year if Hamilton gets the games .

Do you think any Toronto2 group will pass on a chance of a free arena in Hamilton UH NO but if they do it would be the stupidest thing ever done since the Jets moved to Arizona .

 

[gordie]

Hamilton stands a good chance at getting the 2030 Commonwealth games since it will be 100 years since first games & those games where held in Hamilton also part of the 2030 bid is either a new NHL. sized arena or a renovated FOC. either way it is on the government dime so we should know sometime in the new year if Hamilton gets the games .

Do you think any Toronto2 group will pass on a chance of a free arena in Hamilton UH NO but if they do it would be the stupidest thing ever done since the Jets moved to Arizona .

NHL is the group any Toronto/Hamilton Investors has to convince to get a team. I don't believe the NHL will listen to any proposal for a team near Toronto & Buffalo. They (NHL) blocked it since 1985 and there is no reason to believe they won't block it for another 35 years.

 

[GuelphStormer]

Rogers would already own a team and Bell BCE can't own another team until they give up their %age in the Habs. Partnered with Rogers is not Bell corporate, it is the Bell pension plan, a company that that is and has to be at arm's distance from Bell.

Quebec City has an already built acceptable arena and they didn't get a team.

Kinda. Bell itself (BCE) does actually own most of its share of MLSE but yes, some of it was assigned to their pension fund to meet league rules. I think the magic # is 28%. Someone can own a share in more than one franchise as long as each does not exceed 28%. Folks can correct me if Im wrong here please. The sale of (80% of) MLSE by OTPP to Rogers and Bell was quite complicated, especially as it affected the part that then minority owner Larry Tanenbaum was essentially just given. Bell and Rogers bought 80%, each kept 37.5% and Larry got 5%. He also gained greater say in operations and became chair. Bell then split its own 37.5% share into ~28% BCE, and ~9% Bell pension. For some reason, Ive always been under the impression that Bell's agreement (with the NHL via the purchase) to give Larry some of what it would otherwise have bought from Teachers was predicated on it's right to later skirt the league's multiple franchise ownership rules and keep them (and Rogers) in play for a second GTHA franchise - thus leading to the various rumours over the years about a rogers-bell divorce resulting in one leaving to own that new franchise. Recall that Bell had just sold the Canadiens to Molson too. Lots of moving pieces.

 

[sawchuk1971]

already someone has put off the flame over this toronto expansion talk..

Contrary to reports, Toronto isn't anywhere close to getting a second NHL team | Offside

 

[JMROWE]

The talk start up all over again if Hamilton is awarded the 2030 commonwealth games which will include a new free NHL sized arena in Hamilton .

 

[gordie]

The talk start up all over again if Hamilton is awarded the 2030 commonwealth games which will include a new free NHL sized arena in Hamilton .

Quebec City is offering the NHL a free $370 Million Dollar Arena and so far the NHL has balked.

 

[Rebels57]

So they don't have a baseball, football, soccer and a basketball team?

You can't actually be this dense..

 

[LPHabsFan]

Quebec City is offering the NHL a free $370 Million Dollar Arena and so far the NHL has balked.

The NHL isn't coming to Quebec any time soon and it has nothing to do with economics nor has it ever had much to do with economics either.

 

[Cacciaguida]

A Hamilton team/arena would mostly hurt Buffalo.

Hell I am east of Toronto but I am still more likely to drive to Buffalo for cheap tickets than I am likely to pay out the ass for Leafs tickets.

Doubt it would affect the Sabres.

 

[gordie]

Doubt it would affect the Sabres.

Buffalo averaging 16,227 88.4 capacity and it has already been understood that Buffalo gets 10% to 25% of their season ticket base from Southern Ontario, which is why they play the Canadian Anthem before every game along with the American one. They will always team with the Maple Leafs to block a team moving into the Southern Ontario territory unless its the Sabres themselves at some point in the future.

 

[RonTextall]

A few years ago someone on HNIC predicted that Markham would get the next NHL franchise. The city is big enough to support 2 teams. A new team would draw people from the northern GTA as well as east of the city. I'm a Leafs fan but I've been to more games in Buffalo than Toronto since moving out of the GTA because I refuse to pay $200+ to see a hockey game. I'd see a game in Markham if the price was reasonable.

 

[Cacciaguida]

Buffalo averaging 16,227 88.4 capacity and it has already been understood that Buffalo gets 10% to 25% of their season ticket base from Southern Ontario, which is why they play the Canadian Anthem before every game along with the American one. They will always team with the Maple Leafs to block a team moving into the Southern Ontario territory unless its the Sabres themselves at some point in the future.

And all the ticket sales they get are from the St. Catharines, and the Niagra region, not Hamilton. You know, the places actually close to Buffalo. There's no way people from these regions are going to drive through Toronto to pay for more expensive tickets on a farther away team.

I didn't know Ottawa had a substantial American ticket bases because they play the American anthem before games. Buffalos attendance drop has to do with recent ineptitude.

 

[Cacciaguida]

I'd see a game in Markham if the price was reasonable.

it won't be, you can count on that. gotta get a return on investment.

 

[Bjorn Le]

"You're making a ton of assumptions about what investors and the NHL are looking for ..." then I guess so was The Economist business sports writers. Then again, maybe it's your assumption that it is wrong.

Some random article from the Economist is neither relevant nor authoritative here.

A few years ago someone on HNIC predicted that Markham would get the next NHL franchise. The city is big enough to support 2 teams. A new team would draw people from the northern GTA as well as east of the city. I'm a Leafs fan but I've been to more games in Buffalo than Toronto since moving out of the GTA because I refuse to pay $200+ to see a hockey game. I'd see a game in Markham if the price was reasonable.

Markham is probably one of the better spots outside the city of Toronto, but it's still not ideal given how difficult it is to get to Markham using public transit. Vaughn Metropolitan Centre (if there was space) would be better. Vaughan Mills probably would be better as well.​

 

[JMROWE]

Buffalo averaging 16,227 88.4 capacity and it has already been understood that Buffalo gets 10% to 25% of their season ticket base from Southern Ontario, which is why they play the Canadian Anthem before every game along with the American one. They will always team with the Maple Leafs to block a team moving into the Southern Ontario territory unless its the Sabres themselves at some point in the future.

25% that is that theory has been debunked the sabers southern Ontario season ticket base has been under 10% maybe lower since we needed passports to cross the border now it is just casual fans crossing the border for sabers games & most of them come Niagara area not Hamilton .

 

[JMROWE]

Quebec City is offering the NHL a free $370 Million Dollar Arena and so far the NHL has balked.

Quebec City is a small market that is why the NHL. might not go back as for Hamilton if a new arena is built or reno FOC. for the 2030 commonwealth games the NHL. will not balked at Hamilton this time around to the fact that Hamilton lot of things going for it right now a finished red hill expressway , LRT. & other projects going on also Hamilton would considered a large hockey market since Hamilton alone will be over a million people by 2030 .

 

[HugoSimon]

what project? the markham arena?

my point is simple. MLSE will go to great lengths to oppose construction of a second arena within the GTA.



Huh? I made no reference to the other owners nor what they would gain from expansion fees. I just said that MLSE does not want another arena in the GTA.

What exactly are these great lengths? You're acting as if real estate developers have any interest in turning down investment money.

 

[HugoSimon]

While I think the idea of a second team in Toronto could theoretically be charming, it’s conceptually a mess because who would want to foot the bill to pay 2020 expansion fees to play second fiddle budget option to the Maple Leafs? I could understand the existence of such scrappy second option as some WHA merger but not as a brand new franchise paying expansion fees worthy of having sole control of a major metropolitan market.

Because that second fiddle at $120 a seat is still a bargin for anyone wanting to see NHL hockey.

This "Leaf's Country" nonsense is really getting insufferable.

You don't own Canada, there are 10 million people living in the area, the leafs doesn't own these people and I'm sure many thousands of people would regularly pay money to see a game that is mildly cheaper than the leafs.

 

[HugoSimon]

NHL is the group any Toronto/Hamilton Investors has to convince to get a team. I don't believe the NHL will listen to any proposal for a team near Toronto & Buffalo. They (NHL) blocked it since 1985 and there is no reason to believe they won't block it for another 35 years.

You are 100 percent right until about ten seconds after the vegas expansion fee was announced.

Expansion fees approaching a billion dollars pretty much nullifies that entire argument beyond belief.

Ignoring the bit that it'll likely be the leafs alone fighting that expansion, the other issue is that the League is in real danger of loosing southern ontario to other sports. The Raptors just took a massive chunk out of the GTA by winning a championship. Toronto FC are growing at an alarming rate. The treat of an NFL expansion is more than an enough cause to quickly reconsider expansion.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

You are 100 percent right until about ten seconds after the vegas expansion fee was announced.

Expansion fees approaching a billion dollars pretty much nullifies that entire argument beyond belief.

Ignoring the bit that it'll likely be the leafs alone fighting that expansion, the other issue is that the League is in real danger of loosing southern ontario to other sports. The Raptors just took a massive chunk out of the GTA by winning a championship. Toronto FC are growing at an alarming rate. The treat of an NFL expansion is more than an enough cause to quickly reconsider expansion.

Exactly how is giving another team going to stop the growth of interest in other sport?

 

[gordie]

$500 million was the expansion fee for Las Vegas. That won't interest Toronto or Buffalo to give up their territorial rights for a another team based in Southern Ontario. Fact is the only thing that will interest both teams are payments of a new teams revenue into perpetuity, which was the fear of Ron Joyce who feared the Leafs would demand up to 30 million (cdn) back in 1991 Expansion.

 

[gordie]

$500 million was the expansion fee for Las Vegas. That won't interest Toronto or Buffalo to give up their territorial rights for a another team based in Southern Ontario. Fact is the only thing that will interest both teams are payments of a new teams revenue into perpetuity, which was the fear of Ron Joyce who feared the Leafs would demand up to 30 million (cdn) back in 1991 Expansion.

 

[HugoSimon]

$500 million was the expansion fee for Las Vegas. That won't interest Toronto or Buffalo to give up their territorial rights for a another team based in Southern Ontario. Fact is the only thing that will interest both teams are payments of a new teams revenue into perpetuity, which was the fear of Ron Joyce who feared the Leafs would demand up to 30 million (cdn) back in 1991 Expansion.

Something like a $900,000,000 expansion fee would directly give the leafs 30 mill. And it also generate income for softer franchises that would ultimately look for the leafs for money.

 

[GuelphStormer]

What exactly are these great lengths? You're acting as if real estate developers have any interest in turning down investment money.

i don't think you understand how arena deals come together.

 

[Voight]

Some random article from the Economist is neither relevant nor authoritative here.

Markham is probably one of the better spots outside the city of Toronto, but it's still not ideal given how difficult it is to get to Markham using public transit. Vaughn Metropolitan Centre (if there was space) would be better. Vaughan Mills probably would be better as well.​

Well now they are extending the Yonge line up to at least Hwy 7 so that helps Markham.

I know the Bratty family met with Bettman a few years back to discuss a team, they have their huge Downtown Markham development where they can build an arena.

Quebec City is a small market that is why the NHL. might not go back as for Hamilton if a new arena is built or reno FOC. for the 2030 commonwealth games the NHL. will not balked at Hamilton this time around to the fact that Hamilton lot of things going for it right now a finished red hill expressway , LRT. & other projects going on also Hamilton would considered a large hockey market since Hamilton alone will be over a million people by 2030 .

Quebec City is on par with or beats Vegas, Raleigh, Minneapolis-St Paul & Pittsburgh when it comes to population.