Hanging on a pipe dream: Is another NHL team coming to Toronto?

JohnnyBerts

Registered User
Oct 30, 2012
485
176
Toronto, Ontario
MLSE would fight a second GTA arena more than it would fight a second NHL franchise.

They have, they continue to do so, and will never stop fighting. Eventually the numbers will dictate the league is losing revenue by not having a second team here and MLSE will be forced to bend. Could be 10 years though.
 

JMROWE

Registered User
Apr 2, 2010
1,372
52
Hamilton Ontario
Hamilton is bidding for the 2030 Commonwealth Games which includes either a brand new NHL. sized arena or a fully renovated FOC. in the bid all on the government dime pretty hard for any Toronto group to compete with that if the bid is successful that is
which most likely will be then any group of owners will flock to Hamilton & it's government funded arena .

Oh by the 300 million for new NHL. sized arena in the Hamilton area is a pretty good estimate my be little more but not by much.
 

JMROWE

Registered User
Apr 2, 2010
1,372
52
Hamilton Ontario
Hamilton or bust.
I absolutely agree 100% since the NHL. dose not want to upset the most profitable franchise in the league which dose not want a 2nd NHL. team in the city eating into there profits but will tolerate a regional team in the Hamilton area since it far enough way not be a threat .
 

BKIslandersFan

F*** off
Sep 29, 2017
11,447
5,062
Brooklyn
I absolutely agree 100% since the NHL. dose not want to upset the most profitable franchise in the league which dose not want a 2nd NHL. team in the city eating into there profits but will tolerate a regional team in the Hamilton area since it far enough way not be a threat .
Hamilton is only 60 miles or so away from Toronto...some people commute that distance everyday.
 
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Bjorn Le

Hobocop
May 17, 2010
19,592
609
Martinaise, Revachol
I guess you didn't read the comment that "the only suitable area for an area in the downtown area is owned by MLSE." They own a lot of land in the downtown area. As for southern Ontario vs going north, it would cost an additional $400M to half a billion dollars more because they would be invading both Toronto and Buffalo's territory. The business case is just not there, the money invested would be far more than a new franchise in a place like Seattle and the return on the investment needed would take a long time to recover. That lack of return stops small consortiums from investing and billionaires don't just throw a couple of billion away on a poor business proposition whim. Another team in Ontario, possible but doubtful. A new one in the Toronto GTA area, most likely not.

As well, the NHL is not looking to add a team in the area, they already have the fans of the market area. What the NHL wants is new places without a team to increase the total NHL viewer count. That was also mentioned as one of the reasons why Quebec City could not get a new franchise even though they have the new acceptable arena and a consortium to buy a franchise, all the NHL would be doing would be stealing fans from the Montreal Canadiens, not increasing the total viewer count. That's not what they want with expansions.

Willowdale/Yonge-Sheppard is a major transit hub, the second largest CBD in the city of Toronto and still quite close to the Financial District. I ignored the downtown part because it's irrelevant, there are suitable areas outside the Financial District without treating the location like it's Georgetown or Markham. The problem with Legacy's proposal is not the location; the location is great. The problem is they're full of shit.

Seattle already has a team so I'm not sure what the point is bringing them up. There are limited spaces left in North America that are viable spots for NHL teams, and on that small list, you have a Southern Ontario #2 location (alongside places like Houston). The ROI is going to be extremely lengthy wherever you place a team because of the expansion fee, and if you don't have a ready-to-use stadium that cost. That's true in Seattle or Toronto. You're making a ton of assumptions about what investors and the NHL are looking for and they're not grounded in any evidence. Yes the NHL wants to expand to new markets, but they also want viable teams and they are quickly running out of appropriate American locations. Eventually they will have desires to expand but no place currently unserved to do so.

Southern Ontario will be looked at again. Whether that's 10, 20, or 30 years, the market is too big and too wealthy to not be. Quebec City is not comparable because the city is an even smaller market than Winnipeg.
 
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JoelWarlord

Ex-Noob616
May 7, 2012
6,079
9,243
Halifax
A second team won't happen. It's actually been tried a couple of times and both failed early in the attempt. It ends up being a non feasible business decision.

Aside from the cost of a new franchise, the owner would also need a new arena acceptable by the NHL. One of the previous attempts was looking at the arena in Hamilton but it was rejected by the NHL. On top of that, a team in the southern part of Ontario has to pay fees to both Toronto and Buffalo for invading their territory and that would run close to $200M plus each.
For what it's worth I don't think these dollar figures would be enough to make an ownership group walk away, or the billion dollar figure if we're including a new arena. An ownership group was willing to pay 500M just for the right to put an NHL team in Las Vegas, and another group is paying 650M to put a team in Seattle.

I think you could find a group willing to put up 400M, especially since they could just put the team in Hamilton to play in Copps Coliseum in the short term until they can bilk one of the cities in the GTA + golden horseshoe into building them a brand new rink with a bunch of public money.
 

Zenos

Registered User
Oct 4, 2009
2,171
2,380
Hamilton is bidding for the 2030 Commonwealth Games which includes either a brand new NHL. sized arena or a fully renovated FOC. in the bid all on the government dime pretty hard for any Toronto group to compete with that if the bid is successful that is
which most likely will be then any group of owners will flock to Hamilton & it's government funded arena .

Oh by the 300 million for new NHL. sized arena in the Hamilton area is a pretty good estimate my be little more but not by much.

I know you included the "not by much" caveat, but Centre Videotron was $370M (several years ago) and Rogers Place and the planned Flames barn were/ will be significantly more. I think 400 - 500 is a more realistic estimate for an NHL-calibre venue
 

Pilky01

Registered User
Jan 30, 2012
9,867
2,319
GTA
A Hamilton team/arena would mostly hurt Buffalo.

Hell I am east of Toronto but I am still more likely to drive to Buffalo for cheap tickets than I am likely to pay out the ass for Leafs tickets.
 

GuelphStormer

Registered User
Mar 20, 2012
3,808
497
Guelph, ON
Agreed but the project being proposed is all about building another arena in Toronto and any talk about Hamilton is irrelevant. These developers have no interest in Hamilton.
what project? the markham arena?

my point is simple. MLSE will go to great lengths to oppose construction of a second arena within the GTA.


So you have 31 owners getting 30 mill each and you think this is the obstacle?
Huh? I made no reference to the other owners nor what they would gain from expansion fees. I just said that MLSE does not want another arena in the GTA.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,850
51,520
While I think the idea of a second team in Toronto could theoretically be charming, it’s conceptually a mess because who would want to foot the bill to pay 2020 expansion fees to play second fiddle budget option to the Maple Leafs? I could understand the existence of such scrappy second option as some WHA merger but not as a brand new franchise paying expansion fees worthy of having sole control of a major metropolitan market.
 

RealityBytes

Trash Remover
Feb 11, 2013
2,949
403
For what it's worth I don't think these dollar figures would be enough to make an ownership group walk away, or the billion dollar figure if we're including a new arena. An ownership group was willing to pay 500M just for the right to put an NHL team in Las Vegas, and another group is paying 650M to put a team in Seattle.

I think you could find a group willing to put up 400M, especially since they could just put the team in Hamilton to play in Copps Coliseum in the short term until they can bilk one of the cities in the GTA + golden horseshoe into building them a brand new rink with a bunch of public money.

The Copps Coliseum in Hamilton has already been rejected by the NHL.
 

RealityBytes

Trash Remover
Feb 11, 2013
2,949
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Willowdale/Yonge-Sheppard is a major transit hub, the second largest CBD in the city of Toronto and still quite close to the Financial District. I ignored the downtown part because it's irrelevant, there are suitable areas outside the Financial District without treating the location like it's Georgetown or Markham. The problem with Legacy's proposal is not the location; the location is great. The problem is they're full of ****.

Seattle already has a team so I'm not sure what the point is bringing them up. There are limited spaces left in North America that are viable spots for NHL teams, and on that small list, you have a Southern Ontario #2 location (alongside places like Houston). The ROI is going to be extremely lengthy wherever you place a team because of the expansion fee, and if you don't have a ready-to-use stadium that cost. That's true in Seattle or Toronto. You're making a ton of assumptions about what investors and the NHL are looking for and they're not grounded in any evidence. Yes the NHL wants to expand to new markets, but they also want viable teams and they are quickly running out of appropriate American locations. Eventually they will have desires to expand but no place currently unserved to do so.

Southern Ontario will be looked at again. Whether that's 10, 20, or 30 years, the market is too big and too wealthy to not be. Quebec City is not comparable because the city is an even smaller market than Winnipeg.


"You're making a ton of assumptions about what investors and the NHL are looking for ..." then I guess so was The Economist business sports writers. Then again, maybe it's your assumption that it is wrong.
 

RealityBytes

Trash Remover
Feb 11, 2013
2,949
403
Just for the business side.

Team #2, as long as it's outside a 50 miles radius of the another teams arena has no compensation to pay.

Molson confirmed it when being asked about a potential team coming to Quebec City and how Habs would react to it. He said they cannot do nothing to stop it from happening as long as it's outside that exclusive zone.

Now...teams and team owners can do a whole lot of things behind closed doors to prevent such thing from happening.

It was brought up at 90 miles when I read it ... and it said BOTH cities if in Southern Ontario. Quebec City is closer to 165 miles and outside the market parameters.
 

gordie

5x
Jul 9, 2002
5,201
74
hfboards.com
The Copps Coliseum in Hamilton has already been rejected by the NHL.

Its being rejected by the City of Hamilton. When the OHL Bulldogs opened their season at FirstOntario Centre numerous escalators didn't work or were under repair. Tells you the City of Hamilton is shying away from throwing money into that building and the events they are booking aren't enough to keep up the maintenance of it.
 

RealityBytes

Trash Remover
Feb 11, 2013
2,949
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[QUOTE="RealityBytes, post: 166269347, member: 188053"

As well, the NHL is not looking to add a team in the area, they already have the fans of the market area. What the NHL wants is new places without a team to increase the total NHL viewer count. That was also mentioned as one of the reasons why Quebec City could not get a new franchise even though they have the new acceptable arena and a consortium to buy a franchise, all the NHL would be doing would be stealing fans from the Montreal Canadiens, not increasing the total viewer count. That's not what they want with expansions.

This is why your claim that "this has been tried before and failed" is just so absurd.

The NHL isn't turning down a billion dollar expansion fee from anyone. The idea that they would reject such an offer is more than enough to devalue each and every team in the NHL.[/QUOTE]

That the team failed in the past in California is not a factor for the NHL, but rather a point for an investor to keep in mind when spending his money. However, that is not mentioned in what you quoted is it. The point about Quebec City was stated in sports news when they failed to get a new franchise.
 

RealityBytes

Trash Remover
Feb 11, 2013
2,949
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And you think Seattle makes more sense?

A place where they already have a failed NBA team under their belt, an NFL team, and an MLB?

Ignoring that it is smaller than the GTA, has a smaller catchment area, has less direct interest in hockey?

If an Arena gets built independent from a NHL bid you can be assured the economics will end up being very different from what they are now. The housing bubble is enough reason alone to suggest that this might work out better than expected.

An arena and a Rogers Bell split would get you 50 percent of the way there.

Rogers would already own a team and Bell BCE can't own another team until they give up their %age in the Habs. Partnered with Rogers is not Bell corporate, it is the Bell pension plan, a company that that is and has to be at arm's distance from Bell.

Quebec City has an already built acceptable arena and they didn't get a team.
 

RealityBytes

Trash Remover
Feb 11, 2013
2,949
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Its being rejected by the City of Hamilton. When the OHL Bulldogs opened their season at FirstOntario Centre numerous escalators didn't work or were under repair. Tells you the City of Hamilton is shying away from throwing money into that building and the events they are booking aren't enough to keep up the maintenance of it.

It was rejected in the past by the NHL when a previous enterprise was trying to (and failed) to start a new team in Southern Ontario.
 

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