MLSE would fight a second GTA arena more than it would fight a second NHL franchise.Their end game is building a second arena in Toronto area, not Hamilton.
huh? 300M?A new 18.000 seat arena in Hamilton & or surrounding area would cost about 300 million dollars other cost depends on how you get said via either relocation or expansion.
Agreed but the project being proposed is all about building another arena in Toronto and any talk about Hamilton is irrelevant. These developers have no interest in Hamilton.MLSE would fight a second GTA arena more than it would fight a second NHL franchise.
MLSE would fight a second GTA arena more than it would fight a second NHL franchise.
So you have 31 owners getting 30 mill each and you think this is the obstacle?MLSE would fight a second GTA arena more than it would fight a second NHL franchise.
I absolutely agree 100% since the NHL. dose not want to upset the most profitable franchise in the league which dose not want a 2nd NHL. team in the city eating into there profits but will tolerate a regional team in the Hamilton area since it far enough way not be a threat .Hamilton or bust.
Hamilton is only 60 miles or so away from Toronto...some people commute that distance everyday.I absolutely agree 100% since the NHL. dose not want to upset the most profitable franchise in the league which dose not want a 2nd NHL. team in the city eating into there profits but will tolerate a regional team in the Hamilton area since it far enough way not be a threat .
Buffalo has no say past St. Catharines
I guess you didn't read the comment that "the only suitable area for an area in the downtown area is owned by MLSE." They own a lot of land in the downtown area. As for southern Ontario vs going north, it would cost an additional $400M to half a billion dollars more because they would be invading both Toronto and Buffalo's territory. The business case is just not there, the money invested would be far more than a new franchise in a place like Seattle and the return on the investment needed would take a long time to recover. That lack of return stops small consortiums from investing and billionaires don't just throw a couple of billion away on a poor business proposition whim. Another team in Ontario, possible but doubtful. A new one in the Toronto GTA area, most likely not.
As well, the NHL is not looking to add a team in the area, they already have the fans of the market area. What the NHL wants is new places without a team to increase the total NHL viewer count. That was also mentioned as one of the reasons why Quebec City could not get a new franchise even though they have the new acceptable arena and a consortium to buy a franchise, all the NHL would be doing would be stealing fans from the Montreal Canadiens, not increasing the total viewer count. That's not what they want with expansions.
For what it's worth I don't think these dollar figures would be enough to make an ownership group walk away, or the billion dollar figure if we're including a new arena. An ownership group was willing to pay 500M just for the right to put an NHL team in Las Vegas, and another group is paying 650M to put a team in Seattle.A second team won't happen. It's actually been tried a couple of times and both failed early in the attempt. It ends up being a non feasible business decision.
Aside from the cost of a new franchise, the owner would also need a new arena acceptable by the NHL. One of the previous attempts was looking at the arena in Hamilton but it was rejected by the NHL. On top of that, a team in the southern part of Ontario has to pay fees to both Toronto and Buffalo for invading their territory and that would run close to $200M plus each.
Hamilton is bidding for the 2030 Commonwealth Games which includes either a brand new NHL. sized arena or a fully renovated FOC. in the bid all on the government dime pretty hard for any Toronto group to compete with that if the bid is successful that is
which most likely will be then any group of owners will flock to Hamilton & it's government funded arena .
Oh by the 300 million for new NHL. sized arena in the Hamilton area is a pretty good estimate my be little more but not by much.
what project? the markham arena?Agreed but the project being proposed is all about building another arena in Toronto and any talk about Hamilton is irrelevant. These developers have no interest in Hamilton.
Huh? I made no reference to the other owners nor what they would gain from expansion fees. I just said that MLSE does not want another arena in the GTA.So you have 31 owners getting 30 mill each and you think this is the obstacle?
For what it's worth I don't think these dollar figures would be enough to make an ownership group walk away, or the billion dollar figure if we're including a new arena. An ownership group was willing to pay 500M just for the right to put an NHL team in Las Vegas, and another group is paying 650M to put a team in Seattle.
I think you could find a group willing to put up 400M, especially since they could just put the team in Hamilton to play in Copps Coliseum in the short term until they can bilk one of the cities in the GTA + golden horseshoe into building them a brand new rink with a bunch of public money.
Willowdale/Yonge-Sheppard is a major transit hub, the second largest CBD in the city of Toronto and still quite close to the Financial District. I ignored the downtown part because it's irrelevant, there are suitable areas outside the Financial District without treating the location like it's Georgetown or Markham. The problem with Legacy's proposal is not the location; the location is great. The problem is they're full of ****.
Seattle already has a team so I'm not sure what the point is bringing them up. There are limited spaces left in North America that are viable spots for NHL teams, and on that small list, you have a Southern Ontario #2 location (alongside places like Houston). The ROI is going to be extremely lengthy wherever you place a team because of the expansion fee, and if you don't have a ready-to-use stadium that cost. That's true in Seattle or Toronto. You're making a ton of assumptions about what investors and the NHL are looking for and they're not grounded in any evidence. Yes the NHL wants to expand to new markets, but they also want viable teams and they are quickly running out of appropriate American locations. Eventually they will have desires to expand but no place currently unserved to do so.
Southern Ontario will be looked at again. Whether that's 10, 20, or 30 years, the market is too big and too wealthy to not be. Quebec City is not comparable because the city is an even smaller market than Winnipeg.
Just for the business side.
Team #2, as long as it's outside a 50 miles radius of the another teams arena has no compensation to pay.
Molson confirmed it when being asked about a potential team coming to Quebec City and how Habs would react to it. He said they cannot do nothing to stop it from happening as long as it's outside that exclusive zone.
Now...teams and team owners can do a whole lot of things behind closed doors to prevent such thing from happening.
The Copps Coliseum in Hamilton has already been rejected by the NHL.
[QUOTE="RealityBytes, post: 166269347, member: 188053"
As well, the NHL is not looking to add a team in the area, they already have the fans of the market area. What the NHL wants is new places without a team to increase the total NHL viewer count. That was also mentioned as one of the reasons why Quebec City could not get a new franchise even though they have the new acceptable arena and a consortium to buy a franchise, all the NHL would be doing would be stealing fans from the Montreal Canadiens, not increasing the total viewer count. That's not what they want with expansions.
And you think Seattle makes more sense?
A place where they already have a failed NBA team under their belt, an NFL team, and an MLB?
Ignoring that it is smaller than the GTA, has a smaller catchment area, has less direct interest in hockey?
If an Arena gets built independent from a NHL bid you can be assured the economics will end up being very different from what they are now. The housing bubble is enough reason alone to suggest that this might work out better than expected.
An arena and a Rogers Bell split would get you 50 percent of the way there.
Its being rejected by the City of Hamilton. When the OHL Bulldogs opened their season at FirstOntario Centre numerous escalators didn't work or were under repair. Tells you the City of Hamilton is shying away from throwing money into that building and the events they are booking aren't enough to keep up the maintenance of it.