Hanging on a pipe dream: Is another NHL team coming to Toronto?

[Rob Brown]

Even looking at Mississauga as an option, you tap into something like the sixth most populated municipality in the country, and are closer to Oakville, Burlington, Hamilton, Niagara, Guelph, Kitchener-Waterloo etc. That to me is much more attractive than trying to stick with the Toronto angle and the Toronto name. I personally feel that people in these cities would be much more likely to go to a game in Mississauga compared to Yonge-Sheppard, where there is like nothing going on. Sounds similar to going to a shopping centre for a hockey game like in Kanata. Traffic would be a nightmare for evening games as well given that it'd be in close proximity to the 401 which is a disaster...

 

[HugoSimon]

Even looking at Mississauga as an option, you tap into something like the sixth most populated municipality in the country, and are closer to Oakville, Burlington, Hamilton, Niagara, Guelph, Kitchener-Waterloo etc. That to me is much more attractive than trying to stick with the Toronto angle and the Toronto name. I personally feel that people in these cities would be much more likely to go to a game in Mississauga compared to Yonge-Sheppard, where there is like nothing going on. Sounds similar to going to a shopping centre for a hockey game like in Kanata. Traffic would be a nightmare for evening games as well given that it'd be in close proximity to the 401 which is a disaster...

The obvious branding would be Ontario Whatever.

But I think it'll loose you the Toronto demographic, overall you have to attack the Leafs on the notions that they are the establishment gate keepers. Hell you could even call them the Toronto Gatebrakers.

But I can't repeat this enough. I'd argue each of those 41 games would likely have many thousands of people looking to watch the other team. You have to think this through you have 10 million people in the region in the most die hard hockey region in the league. If the leafs are shitting the bed don't you think a game with McDavid,Crosby, Stamkos, the Bruins etc won't pull in people? Ontario is the only place where you can argue where you'd have this phenomenon. When you start doing the math between transplants from the rest of the country, leaf fans who don't want to choose between supporting Toronto or their secondary team, people who just hate the leafs and the more adventurous crowd you are sucking in a lot of people. It should be a no brainer that filling an Arena isn't gonna be that hard. Whether or not they can make the money overall is another question and up to the people making the investment.

I think the best branding is some sort of hybrid between hockey purists and some sort of young bloods narrative. The two big ticket items are a Rogers Bell split up of the rights and building of the Arena. Even these two events happen quasi independently of each other it is a given.

The new guys on the block who are hockey purist.

Maybe a name like Ontario Commonwealth, Hudson Bay Trappers, etc.

 

[HugoSimon]

None of which will ever overcome the reason GTA2 won't happen: money. But feel free to lash out at everyone else for the next few years, even if completely unrelated - Bettman, the league, Leafs owners, fans of teams in other markets...we're used to it.

Being impatient with your opinion isn't lashing out. You aren't saying anything. I'm not claiming one way or the other that'll happen. THe fact is there is a business case.

You can kick and scream all you want there are more wild bets taking place in this world.

Toronto is the biggest hockey market by leaps and bounds. You can deny it until you are blue in the face. The reality is this isn't a question of if it can happen, its a question of the terms.

If you set a threshold of what would be required I'd take your opinion more seriously. Toronto is both the central hub for the province and the country. It has 3 major league team so it isn't a shock another franchise might be coming it is directly a matter of which league.

 

[cowboy82nd]

So they don't have a baseball, football, soccer and a basketball team?

No, they don't have a basketball team.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

If you set a threshold of what would be required I'd take your opinion more seriously. .

And if you hadn't spent most of 20 posts bashing other markets I'd take your opinion more seriously. So we're even then. *plonk*

 

[Voight]

Narcity is absolute trash. I wouldn't turn to them for news if my life depended on it.

Regardless, I do think the GTA can easily support another team but they have to be a bit more creative, specifically by looking at somewhere other than Toronto, such as Mississauga, Kitchener-Waterloo, Hamilton etc. There are plenty of people in these areas that would support a local team, but you're not going to do much setting up shop in Toronto. I doubt enough people from Niagara to Hamilton or Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph etc. will drive en masse to watch a team play in the north end of the city.

Fair point, but CP24 and a couple others had posted similar stories.

Markham has long been an option too, but Scarpitti's efforts have always fallen flat. Think he gave up.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Mississauga is a no.....doesn't MLSE control Raptors 905, WHO play there

 

[Yukon Joe]

In order to assess the viability of any potential new market, you need three things:

-a big enough fanbase
-an owner
-a building

A lot of the debate here revolves around the fanbase, whether or not there are enough "not Leafs" fans. But really, I don't think that's where this falls down.

You need an owner. Someone who can write a $600 million dollar (US!) expansion fee. Now grifters will come and go with strategies about how they'll somehow raise that money, but so far no one with actual financial means has stepped forward. Try taking a look at the list of Canada's richest people, and look for the ones that are Toronto-based and have enough money they could buy an NHL team. There's hardly any save maybe Galen Weston (as an aside - is Galen Weston a hockey fan?).

And of course you need the other requirement - a building. Not only does someone need to drop $600 mil (US!) on an expansion fee, you need $500 mil or so to build a state of the art arena. I know Markham tried, but that blew up, so there's probably little support for publicly financing an arena, plus you already have the Scotiabank Arena. So that's another expenditure.

If someone stepped forward, wanted to spend over one billion dollars on a team and arena in the GTA, I bet Toronto2 could definitely happen. But until and unless that person does, Toronto2 is a pipe dream.

 

[Mightygoose]

Considering none of the media from the NHL partners (Sportsnet, CBC and TSN) have bothered to pick up this story reaffirms to me that no one is taking this effort seriously.

In what universe does anyone think a 25K seat arena is viable anyways?

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I think whether another team could work in GTA is an irrelevant question at this point. The question is whether NHL is interested in having a team there. Would politics of NHL allow for it? The answer is probably no.

 

[JMROWE]

MLSE will never allow another NHL. team to take root in the GTA. reason being it will eat into MLSE bottom line when you consider Toronto has 7 pro teams in the area already all owned by MLSE. not to mention there is no viable land that big to build an arena anywhere in the GTA. they would have to knock something down to do it .

I believe Southern Ontario can & will support another team but not in the GTA. what we need is a regional team for southern Ontario not another Toronto team places like Hamilton & the surrounding area have plenty of land for a new arena & can be built cheaply in the Hamilton area for between 200 -300 million dollars or renovated FOC for 150 million dollars & if MLSE. is given the option either a team in the GTA. or the Hamilton area & they had no choice MLSE. would choose the one who has the least effect on there bottom line they would or tolerate a NHL. team in the Hamilton area .

Besides Hamilton right now is looking build or renovate right now so if this Legacy group is serious they should be talking to Hamilton city council & the owner of the Hamilton Bulldogs to see if they can work out a deal because in my opinion this is the only option because there is no way MLSE. will let them set up shop anywhere in Toronto (GTA)

 

[BKIslandersFan]

MLSE will never allow another NHL. team to take root in the GTA. reason being it will eat into MLSE bottom line when you consider Toronto has 7 pro teams in the area already all owned by MLSE. not to mention there is no viable land that big to build an arena anywhere in the GTA. they would have to knock something down to do it .

I believe Southern Ontario can & will support another team but not in the GTA. what we need is a regional team for southern Ontario not another Toronto team places like Hamilton & the surrounding area have plenty of land for a new arena & can be built cheaply in the Hamilton area for between 200 -300 million dollars or renovated FOC for 150 million dollars & if MLSE. is given the option either a team in the GTA. or the Hamilton area & they had no choice MLSE. would choose the one who has the least effect on there bottom line they would or tolerate a NHL. team in the Hamilton area .

Besides Hamilton right now is looking build or renovate right now so if this Legacy group is serious they should be talking to Hamilton city council & the owner of the Hamilton Bulldogs to see if they can work out a deal because in my opinion this is the only option because there is no way MLSE. will let them set up shop anywhere in Toronto (GTA)

I think you missed the whole point of this entire project. NHL team is just part of it. The bigger end game is the real estate.

 

[Bucky_Hoyt]

Adding a second NHL team in Toronto is as likely as adding a second NHL, NBA or NFL or even an MLS team in Chicago.

Chicagoland is about 10m

The Greater Golden Horseshoe is about 9m.

Aside from the two ancient baseball teams in Chicago, no buzz about adding second franchises in any of those other sports.

Pretty much the same in Toronto. It would have already happened.

 

[alko]

You need an owner. Someone who can write a $600 million dollar (US!) expansion fee.

Imo, potential owner of second Toronto team must be prepared to pay much more. I dont think, that the other owners will vote yes with fee under 800 millions. Because we are talking about the most prestigious and richest open market.

In the article is written, that they have already 5 billions ready. So, no worry about money.

Then, lets push the fee to 1 billion.

 

[HugoSimon]

And if you hadn't spent most of 20 posts bashing other markets I'd take your opinion more seriously. So we're even then. *plonk*

Bashing other markets? What are you talking about?

 

[HugoSimon]

Adding a second NHL team in Toronto is as likely as adding a second NHL, NBA or NFL or even an MLS team in Chicago.

Chicagoland is about 10m

The Greater Golden Horseshoe is about 9m.

Aside from the two ancient baseball teams in Chicago, no buzz about adding second franchises in any of those other sports.

Pretty much the same in Toronto. It would have already happened.

Chicago has 5 big 4 franchises and Toronto only 3. And this is with Milwaukee just a few hours north. Toronto is effectively the capital of Canada so that adds to this effect as well.

Ontario by far has the most hockey fans.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Imo, potential owner of second Toronto team must be prepared to pay much more. I dont think, that the other owners will vote yes with fee under 800 millions. Because we are talking about the most prestigious and richest open market.

In the article is written, that they have already 5 billions ready. So, no worry about money.

Then, lets push the fee to 1 billion.

And that’s just the expansion fee. How much will they have to fork out to Leafs for territorial rights?

 

[JMROWE]

A new 18.000 seat arena in Hamilton & or surrounding area would cost about 300 million dollars other cost depends on how you get said via either relocation or expansion.

Hamilton area
Expansion - 850 million
Relocation - 650 million
I have included arena ,fees , pay off's in the price

Toronto (GTA)
Expansion -1.5 billion
Relocation - 1.2 billion

Like said if these guys are serious again you have to go with the cost effective option & that place is in the Hamilton area where there is a lot of land & it is cheap & do really think Hamilton is going to let Toronto2 team in the FOC. for 2 years & then leave NO that would be an insult & 1 last thing the Hamilton area is in centralized location which makes it ideal for a regional team & the team dose not have to be called Hamilton it can be called Ontario or Upper Canada .

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Adding a second NHL team in Toronto is as likely as adding a second NHL, NBA or NFL or even an MLS team in Chicago.

Chicagoland is about 10m

The Greater Golden Horseshoe is about 9m.

Aside from the two ancient baseball teams in Chicago, no buzz about adding second franchises in any of those other sports.

Pretty much the same in Toronto. It would have already happened.

I would agree that neither are likely, but I'd be willing to bet that a second NBA or NFL team in Chicago or a second NHL team in Toronto would be easily more profitable than a third to a half of the teams in their respective leagues. The hurdle of getting the established owners to let competition into the market is the sticking point and likely insurmountable for all three circumstances.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I would agree that neither are likely, but I'd be willing to bet that a second NBA or NFL team in Chicago or a second NHL team in Toronto would be easily more profitable than a third to a half of the teams in their respective leagues. The hurdle of getting the established owners to let competition into the market is the sticking point and likely insurmountable for all three circumstances.

Not sure if Chicago can support another big 4 sports league team. Just look at White Sox. They are barely hanging on as it is.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Not sure if Chicago can support another big 4 sports league team. Just look at White Sox. They are barely hanging on as it is.

They've been bad for a while and have also exclusively marketed to just a sliver of the region until recently. They're not indicative of the room for more teams, especially in other sports.

 

[gordie]

The Pro-Hamilton people just refuse to understand that Toronto and Buffalo will forever block any NHL team in that small city. A team there does absolutely nothing for the NHL. With Hamilton on the verge of building a OHL-sized arena for their Hamilton Bulldogs that ought to write Hamilton off as a potential NHL Market for the next 30 years.

 

[Cacciaguida]

The Pro-Hamilton people just refuse to understand that Toronto and Buffalo will forever block any NHL team in that small city. A team there does absolutely nothing for the NHL. With Hamilton on the verge of building a OHL-sized arena for their Hamilton Bulldogs that ought to write Hamilton off as a potential NHL Market for the next 30 years.

Buffalo has no say past St. Catharines

 

[JMROWE]

The Pro-Hamilton people just refuse to understand that Toronto and Buffalo will forever block any NHL team in that small city. A team there does absolutely nothing for the NHL. With Hamilton on the verge of building a OHL-sized arena for their Hamilton Bulldogs that ought to write Hamilton off as a potential NHL Market for the next 30 years.

If you mean the lime ridge mall arena 6.000 seat proposal is not going to happen because the city stands to make no money on the project since the arena will be owned by lime ridge mall & all profits will be made by the owners of the mall & the Bulldogs .

Hamilton is about to bid for the 2030 commonwealth games & if Hamilton wins the bid a brand new NHL. sized arena will be built all on the government dime just like Tim Horton's Field was for the pan am games & if that happens an NHL. team coming to Hamilton all but be a done deal .

 

[BKIslandersFan]

A new 18.000 seat arena in Hamilton & or surrounding area would cost about 300 million dollars other cost depends on how you get said via either relocation or expansion.

Hamilton area
Expansion - 850 million
Relocation - 650 million
I have included arena ,fees , pay off's in the price

Toronto (GTA)
Expansion -1.5 billion
Relocation - 1.2 billion

Like said if these guys are serious again you have to go with the cost effective option & that place is in the Hamilton area where there is a lot of land & it is cheap & do really think Hamilton is going to let Toronto2 team in the FOC. for 2 years & then leave NO that would be an insult & 1 last thing the Hamilton area is in centralized location which makes it ideal for a regional team & the team dose not have to be called Hamilton it can be called Ontario or Upper Canada .

Their end game is building a second arena in Toronto area, not Hamilton.