Hanging on a pipe dream: Is another NHL team coming to Toronto?

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by sawchuk1971, Nov 2, 2019.

  1. sawchuk1971

    sawchuk1971 Registered User

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  2. BKIslandersFan

    BKIslandersFan Registered User

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    I don't know where it is, but if Canada was anything like here when it comes to development, NIMBYs would drag this project down.

    Also, over MLSE's dead body.
     
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  3. MNNumbers

    MNNumbers Registered User

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    One problem is that it is NEVER a good idea to go to the press with an idea about an arena and a desire for an NHL team before talking to Bettman. He and the BOG like to have all the information in their hands, and they don't like being played in the press.
     
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  4. Vamos Rafa

    Vamos Rafa Registered User

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    How would they even build a fan base? Seriously.
     
  5. Deedog99

    Deedog99 Registered User

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    Leafs aren't even selling out now
     
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  6. Fenway

    Fenway Administrator Sponsor

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    Most loved team in Toronto :leafs

    Most hated team in Toronto :leafs
     
  7. HugoSimon

    HugoSimon Registered User

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    So I can pay tampa prices now?
     
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  8. HugoSimon

    HugoSimon Registered User

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    Honestly the absurd expansion fees are the only reason I think this has a chance in hell of happening.

    My understanding is that the leafs have no direct way of blocking the team.

    And I can't think of another city where a billion dollar expansion fee might make sense.

    I'm not sure how the league would turn down an option that generates them 30-40 million each.
     
  9. HugoSimon

    HugoSimon Registered User

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    The same way the Seattle team will?
     
  10. BKIslandersFan

    BKIslandersFan Registered User

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    Except Seattle doesn't already have an NHL team and has the market all to itself.
     
  11. Atticus Finch

    Atticus Finch ***** Pigeons

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    This story comes around every couple of years, as usual, nothing will come of it.
     
  12. HugoSimon

    HugoSimon Registered User

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    So they don't have a baseball, football, soccer and a basketball team?
     
  13. BKIslandersFan

    BKIslandersFan Registered User

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    Oh, so Toronto doesn't? Interesting!
     
  14. HugoSimon

    HugoSimon Registered User

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    Toronto is substantially larger and is in the heart of hockey country.

    There are 11 million people in the areas surrounding Toronto. Team 2 doesn't have to out perform the leafs, just the panthers.
     
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  15. Atticus Finch

    Atticus Finch ***** Pigeons

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    I think you're confused, dude.
     
  16. Mightygoose

    Mightygoose Registered User

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    Cue the 'Toronto still doesn't have a first team' jokes.

    Though I believe greater Toronto is the only current single team market that can support a second, I agree with others that babbling through the press while they haven't spoke with the league and the city yet speaks that these guys are dreamers just like they were in 2009.

    And a 25K seat venue? Really? Seems like these jokers haven't done their homework in the past 10 years to see where capacity in newer buildings have done.
     
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  17. Nullus Reverentia

    Nullus Reverentia Hic Sunt Dracones

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    Always funny to see the comments suggesting Toronto couldn't support a second NHL team. That's ludicrous, of course they could. The problem is the install price will be in the billions, MLSE will not acquiesce without buckets of ducats or a long drawn out fight, and it's not clear the NHL is even interested in GTA 2 anytime soon regardless.

    This really doesn't pass the bull**** meter though. Toronto Legacy Sports and Entertainment tried this 10 years ago and it didn't get off the ground. They have a very ambitious development plan at Sheppard-Yonge Station, and even while they're claiming $5 billion in financing this time, I don't believe it and I don't think you'll see a legitimate financier backing this.
     
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  18. People love being contrarian.

    Lakers moved to LA in 1960. Clippers moved to LA in 1984. It's a Lakers town, but the Clippers have a following. Sure, Leafs have a big headstart on a second team, and would always remain the biggest team in Toronto, but a new team would build a big following, I have no doubt. Initially, the fanbase would probably consist of hockey casuals, people who can't get tickets to Leafs games, as well as people born out of town adopting a local team.

    I don't think finding an audience for a new team would be hard at all. You'd always be living in the shadow of your bigger brother, but if someone wants to do it, it'd be successful.
     
  19. Vamos Rafa

    Vamos Rafa Registered User

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    Alright, HFboards Leafs nation. Let's take a vote. Raise your hand if you'd switch to the Toronto 2 team.

    Crickets.
     
  20. the4thlinegrinder

    the4thlinegrinder Registered User

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    The fan base wouldn’t be based on Leaf fans though, it’d be based on hockey casuals and hockey fans who hate the Leafs (of which their are many in the Golden Horseshoe). People who can’t attend Leaf games would likely gravitate towards TO2.

    Not that I think it has any chance of happening, but it seems the most realistic way of getting a 2nd team in TO would be for Bell or Rogers to buy the expansion team and give up their share of the Leafs with an agreement that the territorial rights would be waived. Or something along those lines.

    So basically it has about a 0.1% chance of happening.
     
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  21. Ernie

    Ernie Registered User

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    Yup the only way this happens is if Rogers and Bell break up.

    Easy to imagine there being plenty of fans. Tickets would be pricey but still a great deal compared to the Leafs. And there are an awful lot of people in Toronto from other places that are not Leafs fans.

    Would be smart to go with a trendy urban vibe for the new team. Leafs are the establishment. New team is where the cool kids go.
     
  22. RealityBytes

    RealityBytes Trash Remover

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    A second team won't happen. It's actually been tried a couple of times and both failed early in the attempt. It ends up being a non feasible business decision.

    Aside from the cost of a new franchise, the owner would also need a new arena acceptable by the NHL. One of the previous attempts was looking at the arena in Hamilton but it was rejected by the NHL. On top of that, a team in the southern part of Ontario has to pay fees to both Toronto and Buffalo for invading their territory and that would run close to $200M plus each. As well, a new team would pull some fans but would always be a second team: like the Mets to the Yankees, Clippers to the Lakers, Islanders to the Rangers ... a team that would always run second in revenues as well. On top of all that, MLSE owns all the feasible downtown areas for an arena.

    So a new team owner would have to pay for a new franchise, plus build a new acceptable arena in an area in the north of Toronto that would not have any decent transportation to it, plus all support staff and farm teams needed for a new franchise, and after all that, would still be a secondary team for the area. For a new owner to do it, it would require well over a billion plus just for the minimum to start and would have a lower revenue stream that would take decades to recover the initial capital cost after yearly operating costs are factored in. This has been discussed to death many times in the past, and it was also in The Economist a few years back. It just doesn't have good enough business criteria to do it.
     
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  23. The Spring Samauri

    The Spring Samauri Troll Stomper

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    Exactly. And that’s the issue. Good luck convincing a crazy fanbase to switch.
     
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  24. viper0220

    viper0220 Registered User

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    Win A Stanley Cup.
     
  25. tony d

    tony d HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

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    Doubt Toronto 2 ever happens. I still think Quebec City gets a team back someday but Toronto 2 probably won't happen.
     
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