Hall of Fame

[Ogopogo*]

chooch, maybe you can get this, but that may be assuming too much.

Some players are so good offensively, playing defense is irrelevant and it would hurt their game. Some players are so good defensively, playing offensive is irrelevant and it would hurt their game. (Remember your Bob Gainey comment about his "explosive" 47 points one year?)

When you score 200 points per season nobody cares how well you back check. When you hit 70 home runs, nobody cares if you can steal bases. And if you throw 49 touchdowns in a season, there is no concern that you can't run.

If Gretzky played more defensively it would have hurt his team and he wouldn't have been as great of a player. You use the talent you are given, you don't try to do something you shouldn't to appease detractors.

Remember chooch, Gainey was only playing half a game by not scoring much. So was Gretzky but, when you are so dominant at one half you are great without having to worry about the other half. Besides, there are two defensemen and a goalie that are supposed to worry about thier own end a whole lot more than a forward is. Honestly, I think defensive forwards are overrated. They are good to have but, they are not as valuable as a great scorer. That is universally agreed upon - just look at the Hart Trophy, 1st and 2nd team all stars and even the Pearson Trophy. Even the players themselves say a great scorer is much more valuable/important/dominant than a defensive forward.

In fact, most times players become exclusively defensive players because they realize that they cannot score at a professional level. They give up on scoring and try to do something else that will keep them in the league.

Simple enough for you?

 

[ClassicHockey]

Stats

That would be awesome if you could do all that.

There are others who are currently working on similar projects, including a database of every summary from every NHL game ever.

That's exactly what I want to do. I want to create a database that has every statsheet from every game ever played. Make it entirely sortable so you could in theory click on say the year '04 and look at the goal scoring leaders. Then click on Kovalchuk's goal total and bring up a list of every game in which he scored and every player that assisted on his 41 goals. It would be an unbelievably huge undertaking to catalog the 40,000 odd games, but that's what I want to do. There is a ton of other information I'd like to throw in there, but I won't get into it all now.

 

[chooch*]

chooch, maybe you can get this, but that may be assuming too much.

Some players are so good offensively, playing defense is irrelevant and it would hurt their game. Some players are so good defensively, playing offensive is irrelevant and it would hurt their game. (Remember your Bob Gainey comment about his "explosive" 47 points one year?)

When you score 200 points per season nobody cares how well you back check. When you hit 70 home runs, nobody cares if you can steal bases. And if you throw 49 touchdowns in a season, there is no concern that you can't run.

If Gretzky played more defensively it would have hurt his team and he wouldn't have been as great of a player. You use the talent you are given, you don't try to do something you shouldn't to appease detractors.

Remember chooch, Gainey was only playing half a game by not scoring much. So was Gretzky but, when you are so dominant at one half you are great without having to worry about the other half. Besides, there are two defensemen and a goalie that are supposed to worry about thier own end a whole lot more than a forward is. Honestly, I think defensive forwards are overrated. They are good to have but, they are not as valuable as a great scorer. That is universally agreed upon - just look at the Hart Trophy, 1st and 2nd team all stars and even the Pearson Trophy. Even the players themselves say a great scorer is much more valuable/important/dominant than a defensive forward.

In fact, most times players become exclusively defensive players because they realize that they cannot score at a professional level. They give up on scoring and try to do something else that will keep them in the league.

Simple enough for you?

So you dont argue that 99 was complete hockey player and was only an offensive one. In my opinion you need to be a complete player to qualify as a "great" like Howe or Orr etc. btw these guys arent French-canadian and I'm not racist (I didnt report you to the mods, relax).

In my opinion he was the 2nd most offensive player of his generation (which is pretty darn good) but clearly not the "best" as he as not a complete player. Hockey is a contact sport and he tried his best to avoid that to the point of hiring the Semenkos and McSorleys.

I'll take many other players as the "best player ever" over 99. Many people such as yourself just rely on stats - thats ok I can accept that.

 

[Ogopogo*]

So you dont argue that 99 was complete hockey player and was only an offensive one. In my opinion you need to be a complete player to qualify as a "great" like Howe or Orr etc. btw these guys arent French-canadian and I'm not racist (I didnt report you to the mods, relax).

In my opinion he was the 2nd most offensive player of his generation (which is pretty darn good) but clearly not the "best" as he as not a complete player. Hockey is a contact sport and he tried his best to avoid that to the point of hiring the Semenkos and McSorleys.

I'll take many other players as the "best player ever" over 99. Many people such as yourself just rely on stats - thats ok I can accept that.

You are clearly confused when you call Gretzky the 2nd best at anything. Nobody could score like him, period.

Was Babe Ruth a complete player? When he was hitting 60 home runs while other TEAMS were hitting 15, I don't think being a gold glover really mattered.

Gretzky won more Hart Trophies, Scoring Titles, Stanley Cups, Pearson Awards and Canada Cup scoring titles than anyone of his generation. That means he is the greatest in EVERYONE'S judgment. To deny that he is the greatest is to perpetuate your own personal grudge. That is fine but, virtually everybody that has watched the game and understands it, will disagree with you.

Gretzky was brilliant at avoiding hits because of his speed and peripheral vision. Every team had a tough guy on the roster, that was not Gretzky's exclusive privilege.

 

[gary69]

I am going to email the Hall of Fame and request the voting information. If it exists, they probably have it. Hopefully, they will want to accomodate my request.

Do yoy have any news on this, it would be interesting to know how much Gretzky dominated in the voting in the 1980's or whether there were any close calls like Theodore/Iginla tie or Pronger/Jagr only separated by one vote for the Hart.

Compared to the other major sports, the NHL has done a lousy job keeping track of past statistics and organizing them for the fans. Currently I`m going through game summaries from the 70s in newspaper archives to determine goalies` save percentages from those seasons since the league never kept track of it. You`d think the NHL would put someone on their office staff in charge of improving the situation. It`s not like they`ve been busy doing anything else the last year.

NHL should really publish every bit of all-time NHL info and stats they can get their hands into when (if) the next season begins. They have really put too much effort for example on various fantasy stuff, while the historical information have been lacking. Hopefully we don't have to wait until the NHL's centennial.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Do yoy have any news on this, it would be interesting to know how much Gretzky dominated in the voting in the 1980's or whether there were any close calls like Theodore/Iginla tie or Pronger/Jagr only separated by one vote for the Hart.



NHL should really publish every bit of all-time NHL info and stats they can get their hands into when (if) the next season begins. They have really put too much effort for example on various fantasy stuff, while the historical information have been lacking. Hopefully we don't have to wait until the NHL's centennial.

Nothing yet but, when I do hear from the HOF, I will post details about it.

 

[ClassicHockey]

Hhof

The HHOF wouldn't have that information handy. They could probably research it from the 'Hockey News' but they don't have anyone there to do that for you as they are shorthanded and extremely busy. But its worth a try. The info you are looking for would be in the Hockey News issues at the end of every season. Some libraries have all the issues of the Hockey News on microfiche.

Nothing yet but, when I do hear from the HOF, I will post details about it.

 

[Ogopogo*]

The HHOF wouldn't have that information handy. They could probably research it from the 'Hockey News' but they don't have anyone there to do that for you as they are shorthanded and extremely busy. But its worth a try. The info you are looking for would be in the Hockey News issues at the end of every season. Some libraries have all the issues of the Hockey News on microfiche.

The Hockey News began in 1947, would they have the results clear back to 1924?

I have requested the award voting statistics from the Hockey News statistics editor, hopefully he can help me out. I will post the results from that email as well.

 

[norrisnick]

The HHOF wouldn't have that information handy. They could probably research it from the 'Hockey News' but they don't have anyone there to do that for you as they are shorthanded and extremely busy. But its worth a try. The info you are looking for would be in the Hockey News issues at the end of every season. Some libraries have all the issues of the Hockey News on microfiche.

If they were hiring and paid enough to keep me housed and fed I'd do that grunt work in a heartbeat to make it handy. A fully digitized database of games, seasons, players, coaches, teams, awards, trades, signings, contracts, drafts, etc... is something the HHOF, or NHL for that matter, would want to have available for it's fans to use.

I sure as hell would like to be able to quickly see who assisted on the Rocket's historic run to 50 in 50.

Too bad you either need to be paid to do it or independently wealthy otherwise it would take a lifetime.

 

[ClassicHockey]

Hhof

Because of the lockout, the HHOF is suffering with a great loss of attendance. So they are more prone to let people go than to hire any. They rely on volunteers to do the type of work like you mention.

Upstairs from the actuall Hall, is the Resource Centre that any researcher can go and do their work. They have NHL guides going back to the 1920's and many others publications.

The NHL has the type of databases that you want available. But try getting anything from them. There are other researchers who have or are working on the digitized databases.

If they were hiring and paid enough to keep me housed and fed I'd do that grunt work in a heartbeat to make it handy. A fully digitized database of games, seasons, players, coaches, teams, awards, trades, signings, contracts, drafts, etc... is something the HHOF, or NHL for that matter, would want to have available for it's fans to use.

I sure as hell would like to be able to quickly see who assisted on the Rocket's historic run to 50 in 50.

Too bad you either need to be paid to do it or independently wealthy otherwise it would take a lifetime.

 

[ClassicHockey]

Hhof

I'm not sure if the award voting stats are in the NHL guides or not. I do know the Hockey News does have the info from, like you said, 1947 on.

The Hockey News began in 1947, would they have the results clear back to 1924?

I have requested the award voting statistics from the Hockey News statistics editor, hopefully he can help me out. I will post the results from that email as well.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Response from the Hockey News:

Your letter was forwarded to me by Jeff Mackie.

Unfortunately, we don't have the data you requested. We have published some
of the results over the years, but it doesn't exist as an electronic file. I
would suggest contacting the NHL directly. They should be able to point you
in the right direction.

Sorry we couldn't be of more help.

Sincerely,

Jason Kay
Editor
The Hockey News
416-227-8238

So, my hunt continues...

 

[norrisnick]

but it doesn't exist as an electronic file.

So, my hunt continues...

Any of you guys out there rich and want to sponsor my crusade to get all this stuff digitized?

 

[ClassicHockey]

the Hockey News

It was nice that the editor wrote you back. The Hockey News has been hurt quite a bit with the lockout and losing advertising revenue. They may have lost some staff as well. They are all a good bunch of dedicated people working there.
The Hockey News doesn't have any of their back copies on computer format. I tried to get them interested in putting their entire run on CD but they felt it was too costly.

The NHL does have a lot of the data digitized as they use an outside stats service and they also use 'Real time scoring' to track almost every statistic now. But they don't have everything on computer format yet since there is an awful lot of data to input.

Response from the Hockey News:

Your letter was forwarded to me by Jeff Mackie.

Unfortunately, we don't have the data you requested. We have published some
of the results over the years, but it doesn't exist as an electronic file. I
would suggest contacting the NHL directly. They should be able to point you
in the right direction.

Sorry we couldn't be of more help.

Sincerely,

Jason Kay
Editor
The Hockey News
416-227-8238

So, my hunt continues...

 

[gary69]

Upstairs from the actuall Hall, is the Resource Centre that any researcher can go and do their work. They have NHL guides going back to the 1920's and many others publications.

The NHL has the type of databases that you want available. But try getting anything from them. There are other researchers who have or are working on the digitized databases.

Hopefully someone of our HFBoards -members living in Toronto would spend some time there and get the awards info, for example.

All the info they have will probably get digitized one day (including all hockey footage there is from all over the globe, I'm counting on NHL century celebrations in 2017), it's just pain to wait.

 

[gary69]

The Hockey News doesn't have any of their back copies on computer format. I tried to get them interested in putting their entire run on CD but they felt it was too costly.

The Hockey News made a good start with their 1996 Inside Hockey -cd, I was really expecting them to continue with that trend, with even more complete info.
Too bad they haven't.

 

[ClassicHockey]

New HHOF inductees

There are a couple of surprise names being inducted in the HHOF that will be announced tomorrow. One that no one here has even suggested.

 

[Chili]

There are a couple of surprise names being inducted in the HHOF that will be announced tomorrow. One that no one here has even suggested.

I'm pulling for Rogie Vachon, Boris Mikhailov and Valeri Kharlamov...And Herb Brooks in the builder's category.

 

[ClassicHockey]

Hhof

Well, you might have a couple if winners in your list.

I'm pulling for Rogie Vachon, Boris Mikhailov and Valeri Kharlamov...And Herb Brooks in the builder's category.

 

[reckoning]

There are a couple of surprise names being inducted in the HHOF that will be announced tomorrow. One that no one here has even suggested.

Most of the time when somebody here claims to have inside information I usually roll my eyes and say "yeah, right"; but based on some of your other posts you definitely know your stuff so I`m taking you seriously. A little stumped on who the one nobody has suggested might be.

Two things I`m absolutely sure of about tomorrows announcement:

1) Mark Howe deserves to be inducted

2) Mark Howe won`t get inducted

 

[ClassicHockey]

Hhof

I'm new to the site so all the new inductees could have been mentioned in prior threads. I have been told something but nothing is for sure until the actual announcement.

Most of the time when somebody here claims to have inside information I usually roll my eyes and say "yeah, right"; but based on some of your other posts you definitely know your stuff so I`m taking you seriously. A little stumped on who the one nobody has suggested might be.

Two things I`m absolutely sure of about tomorrows announcement:

1) Mark Howe deserves to be inducted

2) Mark Howe won`t get inducted

 

[Chili]

My guess would be that Glenn Anderson's phone will be ringing at some point today.

 

[ClassicHockey]

Anderson

Pretty good guess.

My guess would be that Glenn Anderson's phone will be ringing at some point today.

 

[ClassicHockey]

HHOF Inductees

Here are the 3 elected:

Valeri Kharlamov
Cam Neely
Murray Costello

Herb Brooks was considered and Murray Costello is a surprise that I don't think anyone mentioned

Neely had a lot of support and is deserving even though he had a relatively short
career.

There was a push about Glen Anderson and he just didn't make it in the end. If Anderson can't make it in this weak year, he never will.

 

[Snap Wilson]

Kharlamov is a no-brainer. Shame they couldn't have gotten him in while alive. I wouldn't have elected Neely, but it ain't my Hall of Fame. I think there are many better available candidates out there.

The door is all but closed on Anderson, Mark Howe, Vachon, Dave Taylor (well, he has a chance as an exec, I guess) and many others. Shame.