Hall of Fame talents who faded into oblivion

Babych44

Registered User
Sep 8, 2012
73
10
If talking about raw talent, and not players that were good at all areas, 2 names come to mind : Alex Semin and Nikolai Zherdev, if only you could transplant canadien heart for these two..
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
95,351
59,259
Ottawa, ON
How about Phaneuf? Came in looking like Scott Stevens (the Washington version). Piled up points and goals in his first three seasons, finishing third in Calder voting to Ovechkin and Crosby, also finishing second to Lidstrom in Norris voting in his third season.

Fell off a cliff after that. Traded to Toronto in his fifth season with hopes that he'd bounce back, named captain of the storied franchise in the offseason. Had a couple solid seasons, but never really got back to the level he showed early on.

I can recall an extremely divisive debate on HF regarding which of Dion Phaneuf or Joni Pitkanen would earn more Norris trophies.
 

BobbyAwe

Registered User
Nov 21, 2006
3,442
883
South Carolina
Don Murdoch, Barry Pederson - health, Michel Briere death in car accident, maybe Dan Blackburn training injury.

C1958, how MUCH do you think Pederson's career numbers were affected by his arm surgery (and other injuries)? Do you think his first 4 seasons (320 points in 246 games) before the arm problem, would have been indicative of his entire career or do you feel that was just a "hot start"? Needless to say, Barry's career numbers were still almost a point per game, but I don't know how much to "upgrade" him, career-wise, considering the injuries?

Another one I wonder about was Samsonov. Sammy looked like he was on his way to big things till the wrist injury at 24 years old. His numbers definitely fell off for the rest of his career after that. Again, can we attribute that to "just" a wrist injury though? In Pederson's and Samsonov's cases their injuries were not career ending nor debilitating, but it is difficult to tell just how much their affect was throughout the rest of their careers?
 
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BobbyAwe

Registered User
Nov 21, 2006
3,442
883
South Carolina
Barry Pederson has such a unique career curve. Usually with players who suddenly fade, they've had one mega-season (think Joe Juneau) that can be attributed to luck, situation, power-play opportunties, etc. But in Pederson's case he had three consecutive mega seasons between ages 20 and 23. He had a 116-point season, finishing 3rd in assists, in 1983-84. By the time he was selected to Team Canada in 1984, he was right there in his career development with Dale Hawerchuk and Denis Savard. But by 1989 he was largely forgotten in NHL circles, and by 1991 he was done.

Not really his fault, of course, due to his shoulder injuries. What a shame.

Panther, thanks for this post. I just got finished asking C1958 about whether he thought Barry was mainly hampered by injuries throughout his career or whether he just didn't turn out to be as good as his first few seasons would indicate - I didn't see your post till right afterward. Let's see if he has the same opinion?

I also asked him about Samsonov and the wrist injury. He didn't SEEM like the same player after that although he played many more years? Do you think the wrist bothered him for the rest of his career or was it just that he never lived up to expectations for any one of a number of intangible reasons, as happens with quite a few players?
 

McGarnagle

Yes.
Aug 5, 2017
28,435
37,670
Not a hall of fame talent, but Jonathan Girard had a great season in 02-03 and was on his way to being a great puck-moving defenseman, then got in a car accident and never played again.
 
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BobbyAwe

Registered User
Nov 21, 2006
3,442
883
South Carolina
Not a hall of fame talent, but Jonathan Girard had a great season in 02-03 and was on his way to being a great puck-moving defenseman, then got in a car accident and never played again.

Yes, yet another in a LONG list of Boston Bruin's "might have beens" or "should have been around longer's" :(

Maybe I'm just bias, but it seems the Bruin's have a worse history of this than any other team?
 
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Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,773
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
C1958, how MUCH do you think Pederson's career numbers were affected by his arm surgery (and other injuries)? Do you think his first 4 seasons (320 points in 246 games) before the arm problem, would have been indicative of his entire career or do you feel that was just a "hot start"? Needless to say, Barry's career numbers were still almost a point per game, but I don't know how much to "upgrade" him, career-wise, considering the injuries?

Another one I wonder about was Samsonov. Sammy looked like he was on his way to big things till the wrist injury at 24 years old. His numbers definitely fell off for the rest of his career after that. Again, can we attribute that to "just" a wrist injury though? In Pederson's and Samsonov's cases their injuries were not career ending nor debilitating, but it is difficult to tell just how much their affect was throughout the rest of their careers?

Barry Pederson.Tumor removal is very intusive. Shoulders / Turso integral to skating.

Had the potential to be a top 5 center in the eighties. Better overall game than Barzal.

Normand Leveille had a better overrall game than Sergei Samsonov.
 
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Big Phil

Registered User
Nov 2, 2003
31,703
4,144
I think this is a good one. I used to subscribe to Goalie's World magazine back in the day and they did a feature on Theodore which basically painted him as the new paradigm in goaltending for all future goalies to follow! Now this was a Quebec-based publication who might not have been completely unbiased (Jose was a Quebecois star playing for Les Glorieux after all) but clearly the opinion was that Theodore was going to be a dominant goalie in the league for some time.

In the end he had one huge season (2001-02: Vezina, Hart, and strangely only 2nd All-star) and maybe 1 other above average season (2003-04), and then a bunch of middle-of-the-road or below. He was basically done being an elite player by 28 at a time when goalies were being dominant well into their 30s.

The idea was that it wasn't a one-off for him. He had that huge season in 2002, then upset the Bruins in the playoffs. Then a pretty good year in 2004, another upset of the Bruins in the playoffs. Then he is the 3rd string goalie for Canada at the 2004 World Cup. After that he was photographed with Paris Hilton and was known for taking that anti-hair loss drug. Man, what a way to remember a former Hart winner. I wouldn't have thought he'd have gone this direction.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,590
15,949
The idea was that it wasn't a one-off for him. He had that huge season in 2002, then upset the Bruins in the playoffs. Then a pretty good year in 2004, another upset of the Bruins in the playoffs. Then he is the 3rd string goalie for Canada at the 2004 World Cup. After that he was photographed with Paris Hilton and was known for taking that anti-hair loss drug. Man, what a way to remember a former Hart winner. I wouldn't have thought he'd have gone this direction.

wasn't there also something about the french mob?
 
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MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,672
16,395
wasn't there also something about the french mob?

It was actually the Greek mob, and it's something he couldn't do much about since his dad was involved.

His dad-in-law was a very, very high profile music producer who is also a convicted pedophile for crimes committed against his very, very high profile protégés (which, I guess, makes him a very, very high profile pedophile).

*So I guess he has some serious daddy issues*

EDIT : Well, there's the above, too.
EDIT 2 : Theodore's dad full-name is Theodore Theodore, which is probably, in an of itself, an indictable offence.
 
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Normand Lacombe

Registered User
Jan 30, 2008
1,442
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Sylvain Turgeon. He scored 40 or more goals in two of his first three years in Hartford. Best year was his age 21 season with 45-34-79 in 1986. Then his production plummeted due to an injury that never healed properly. After three seasons as an original Ottawa Senator, Turgeon left the NHL at the age of 30 in 1995.
 
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brachyrynchos

Registered User
Apr 10, 2017
1,472
997
Kirk Muller seemed to drop off a bit. I wasn't a fan of him personally, but he played a strong two way game and was close to a point per game player the first half of his career (w/ NJ 520 pts in 556 games, w/MTL 247 pts in 267 games). Once he was traded to Long Island he put on his grumpy face and from then on he never quite put up the numbers or gave the same kind of effort that he had previously despite being a 1st/2nd line center. Not quite sure if injuries/wear and tear played a part, but his game definitely declined in the mid to late '90's which I found odd...being that his style of play and 'leadership' was suited for that era. After playing 7 seasons with the Devils, 4 with Montreal, Muller played another 526 games over 8 seasons between NY, FLA, DAL, and Toronto amassing 192 points.
 
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kruezer

Registered User
Apr 21, 2002
6,718
274
North Bay
two older guys i've wondered about were Fleming Mackell and Sid Smith.

Smith got a later start at about 25 (which of course hurts his chances to begin with), but was done by 30, had some really big AHL seasons coming up though. Had a year where he was 5th in league scoring, led the leafs during really really low scoring years for them (and the league). Then was gone.

Mackell on the other hand had a huge last year in OHA Jr. then had a real nice AHL career hit the bigs and lead the bruins in scoring twice, hit injuries but had one big comeback season where he was 7th in league scoring then was out of the league 2 years later at 30.

It seems like he never quite took the next step that he was going to. do any older posters feel like these guys had the talent?
 
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vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,590
15,949
Kirk Muller seemed to drop off a bit. I wasn't a fan of him personally, but he played a strong two way game and was close to a point per game player the first half of his career (w/ NJ 520 pts in 556 games, w/MTL 247 pts in 267 games). Once he was traded to Long Island he put on his grumpy face and from then on he never quite put up the numbers or gave the same kind of effort that he had previously despite being a 1st/2nd line center. Not quite sure if injuries/wear and tear played a part, but his game definitely declined in the mid to late '90's which I found odd...being that his style of play and 'leadership' was suited for that era. After playing 7 seasons with the Devils, 4 with Montreal, Muller played another 526 games over 8 seasons between NY, FLA, DAL, and Toronto amassing 192 points.

a similar case is mike richards. a lot of miles on both those guys from a very young age.
 

brachyrynchos

Registered User
Apr 10, 2017
1,472
997
a similar case is mike richards. a lot of miles on both those guys from a very young age.
Yeah, Richards played a good game, too. He had some off ice issues from what I remember, which I think threw things off for him. At the time, I thought he was a great addition to the Caps but he had nothing left in the tank, no legs, he looked lost out there. Could've had a better and longer career, no doubt.
 

Filthy Dangles

Registered User*
Oct 23, 2014
28,356
39,703
Alex Kovalev is a good one IMO and OP's description is spot on. You show a casual his highlight reel they'd say there's no way this isn't one of the all time greats.

Seen him do things on a hockey rink some of the real all time greats couldn't even fathom.


What about Kovalchuk? He looked like he well on trajectory. Not sure he 'faded' as much as went away for a while and got old.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,114
15,573
Tokyo, Japan
Kirk Muller seemed to drop off a bit. I wasn't a fan of him personally, but he played a strong two way game and was close to a point per game player the first half of his career (w/ NJ 520 pts in 556 games, w/MTL 247 pts in 267 games). Once he was traded to Long Island he put on his grumpy face and from then on he never quite put up the numbers or gave the same kind of effort that he had previously despite being a 1st/2nd line center. Not quite sure if injuries/wear and tear played a part, but his game definitely declined in the mid to late '90's which I found odd...being that his style of play and 'leadership' was suited for that era. After playing 7 seasons with the Devils, 4 with Montreal, Muller played another 526 games over 8 seasons between NY, FLA, DAL, and Toronto amassing 192 points.
Good call on Kirk Muller. After the high-scoring 1992-93 season and the Cup with Montreal, he just seemed to fade into nothingness for another nine years or so.

(Another odd thing about Muller is that he's a career -147. He was a 'plus' player only four times in his career, and one of those was a +1.)
 
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Uncle Rotter

Registered User
May 11, 2010
5,974
1,037
Kelowna, B.C.
Sylvain Turgeon. He scored 40 or more goals in two of his first three years in Hartford. Best year was his age 21 season with 45-34-79 in 1986. Then his production plummeted due to an injury that never healed properly. After three seasons as an original Ottawa Senator, Turgeon left the NHL at the age of 30 in 1995.
Was that Hextall breaking his arm at Team Canada training camp?
 

Jets4Life

Registered User
Dec 25, 2003
7,191
4,119
Westward Ho, Alberta
I think this is a good one. I used to subscribe to Goalie's World magazine back in the day and they did a feature on Theodore which basically painted him as the new paradigm in goaltending for all future goalies to follow! Now this was a Quebec-based publication who might not have been completely unbiased (Jose was a Quebecois star playing for Les Glorieux after all) but clearly the opinion was that Theodore was going to be a dominant goalie in the league for some time.

In the end he had one huge season (2001-02: Vezina, Hart, and strangely only 2nd All-star) and maybe 1 other above average season (2003-04), and then a bunch of middle-of-the-road or below. He was basically done being an elite player by 28 at a time when goalies were being dominant well into their 30s.

That's not exactly correct.

Theodore had some disappointing seasons, especially after the 2002 Hart Trophy, but he was instrumental to helping lead the Washington Capitals to their best seasons ever in 2008-10. In 2011-12, Theodore helped backstop the Florida Panthers in claiming the Southeast Division title.
 

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