News Article: Habs Let Go 4 Scouts (OHL, BCHL, USHS - Minn/New Eng)

Runner77

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The guy played in the league for what 20 years, countless amount of teams. You can make a link with him and almost everyone in hockey. I remember when people said he would hire Crawford instead of MT because Crawford coached him in his last year in the NHL. Then people said he wouldn't fire MT because their friends, bothsaid they didn't know each other much before the hire.

I remember when he traded the great Sekac for DSP, people were so upset that they thought he was doing a favor for his first d-partner/roommate Bob Murray.

I mean he and Joel Bouchard played together for a bit too, you might be right.

I get that and I've seen the above argument being made. However, outside of Bouchard (and I don't know how close they might be), name one individual that he appointed who is amongst the elite at doing the jobs that Bergevin awarded them? What was Martin Lapointe's experience? Sylvain Lefebvre? JJD? Look at how he made sure that Larry Robinson wouldn't get hired so that JJD could get the job. Or how much leeway Lefebvre was afforded despite a lacklustre stint as the AHL coach. What qualified Francis Bouillon to become an instructor shortly after his retirement as a player? Did he start at the bottom like Patrick Roy, Dominique Ducharme or Bouchard or a host of others who learned how to coach from the lowest levels before getting a job with an NHL team?

It's not the fact of who he knows or who he played with alone, that is the objectionable criteria. It's all about how none of these individuals are qualified for the position in some cases and in others, how none of the individuals are the best or amongst the best at what they do.

If Bergevin hired someone on the basis of their professional competence and pedigree and who secondarily, happened to be someone who is a close friend or someone he played with, I don't think anyone here would care.
 
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THE HOFF

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The timing of it raises questions. I agree that it leads to a lot of speculation.



One thing is certain, however. If he was truly unworthy of being a scout with the Habs, why did they only let him go so close to the draft? It's odd.

I won't speculate on the reasons, as I said, but on the ''odd'' timing My uneducated guess is that his work is already on MB's desk, and that he's not considered a pivotal guy to have around at the draft. There are enough voices around the table and a lot of the habs' staff overlap his assignments in the OHL starting with Bergevin and Timmins themselves. I don't think he would have been let go if he could impact our draft in any way. its probably more classy to be honest and let him go now than wait and do it after the draft. We don't have a lot of picks in the later rounds on top of that, we need to get the first and second rounds right this year.
 
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Runner77

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I won't speculate on the reasons, as I said, but on the ''odd'' timing My uneducated guess is that his work is already on MB's desk, and that he's not considered a pivotal guy to have around at the draft. There are enough voices around the table and a lot of the habs' staff overlap his assignments in the OHL starting with Bergevin and Timmins themselves. I don't think he would have been let go if he could impact our draft in any way.

Let's assume the theory you've presented is what actually happened. Then why not let him go after the draft? It's not as if he would have been a detriment by keeping him until after the draft is done.

Which is why one would be tempted to think there is more to it than that. Could he have done something where he became a liability to the club? We'll never know.

Because he certainly doesn't have enough importance in the Habs's hierarchy, it blurs the whys and wherefores of his termination -- it may be a trickle down of Molson's promised thorough post-season review process or he may just have been let go regardless.
 
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habs03

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I get that and I've seen the above argument being made. However, outside of Bouchard (and I don't know how close they might be), name one individual that he appointed who is amongst the elite at doing the jobs that Bergevin awarded them? What was Martin Lapointe's experience? Sylvain Lefebvre? JJD? Look at how he made sure that Larry Robinson wouldn't get hired so that JJD could get the job. Or how much leeway Lefebvre was afforded despite a lacklustre stint as the AHL coach. What qualified Francis Bouillon to become an instructor shortly after his retirement as a player? Did he start at the bottom like Patrick Roy, Dominique Ducharme or Bouchard or a host of others who learned how to coach from the lowest levels before getting a job with an NHL team?

It's not the fact of who he knows or who he played with alone, that is the objectionable criteria. It's all about how none of these individuals are qualified for the position in some cases and in others, how none of the individuals are the best or amongst the best at what they do.

If Bergevin hired someone on the basis of their professional competence and pedigree and who secondarily, happened to be someone who is a close friend or someone he played with, I don't think anyone here would care.

What close relationship did he have with Lapointe, Sylyain Lefebvre, Mellanby? Since he played junior hockey with JJD, its the reason he has a job?

Timmins was just head scout, promoted to Ast GM since, what the reason, why promote Lapointe to that?

Larry Robinson at the time was sooo done at that time, after not being hired by the Habs, he worked for 1 year behind the bench and they got ride of him, made him a assistant in the sky since he still had another year left, and got a part time job by the Blues after that... I would not call him among the elite currently.

Bouillon, correctly agree, but him and Bergevin are bff's how?

Eric Crawford was hired as head of pro scouting, I believe he is the brother Marc Crawford.. Marc was Bergevin last coach in the NHL.. (like 7 games)..reason he was hired right..
 
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Runner77

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What close relationship did he have ...

The key point is how Bergevin has hired multiple individuals who are not the best at their craft and in some cases, he's hired individuals who did not have the requisite experience or track record to merit being given the job, being extended, promoted or simply having received a raise and how some of these individuals look to have close associations with him prior to being given the opportunities they garnered.

No one would care about Bergevin's past associations, real, inferred or imagined if only he'd hired the best. I don't care about cronyism if the crony is the best in the business.
 
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Runner77

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I wonder what our OHL coverage is like.
 

montreal

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I wonder what our OHL coverage is like.

So usually you have your regional scouts, then your crossover scouts and then you have the guys at the top like Churla, Timmins, Dudley and whoever else they want to send. So let's say this guy as the regional scout is watching London when Mete is 16. He turns in good reports on Mete and after a few of them maybe then they send in the crossover scout to get a look. If he likes what he sees then guys like Timmins, Churla, etc.. would make the trip. Or that's my guess to how it would go. I used to interview scouts when I covered the Habs for HF a long time ago and I had a few very interesting conversations with the head scout of ISS back when it first started. But things could be very different now sine it was so long ago.
 
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Runner77

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So usually you have your regional scouts, then your crossover scouts and then you have the guys at the top like Churla, Timmins, Dudley and whoever else they want to send. So let's say this guy as the regional scout is watching London when Mete is 16. He turns in good reports on Mete and after a few of them maybe then they send in the crossover scout to get a look. If he likes what he sees then guys like Timmins, Churla, etc.. would make the trip. Or that's my guess to how it would go. I used to interview scouts when I covered the Habs for HF a long time ago and I had a few very interesting conversations with the head scout of ISS back when it first started. But things could be very different now sine it was so long ago.

Trying to decipher Ludzik's responsibilities in the grand scheme. Would you say he was more of a regional scout? I don't know what his scouting background was when the Habs retained him.
 

habs03

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The key point is how Bergevin has hired multiple individuals who are not the best at their craft and in some cases, he's hired individuals who did not have the requisite experience or track record to merit being given the job, being extended, promoted or simply having received a raise and how some of these individuals look to have close associations with him prior to being given the opportunities they garnered.

No one would care about Bergevin's past associations, real, inferred or imagined if only he'd hired the best. I don't care about cronyism if the crony is the best in the business.

Saying they were bad hires, is different than saying he hired them becasue they were his friends based on bs links.

You talk about hire players who do not have a requisite experience.. the hires you mentioned.. Martin Lapointe, was working as scout already with the Blackhawks, Lefebvre was a D coach for the Avs, JJD was the D coach for the Hartford in the AHL. Scott Mellanby had been Ast coach, then scout for the Blues, and advisor to the GM with Van City.

None of those hires were drastic jumps you don't see around the league.
 

habergeon

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The timing of it raises questions. I agree that it leads to a lot of speculation.

Makes you wonder what he may have done to have this happen. He claims that he didn't see it coming.

We know how at this time of year, teams are in their war rooms and mining their scouts heavily for information and findings. Leads one to believe that they didn't like what he had to say at this particular juncture or that maybe he was ill-prepared, who knows. Could be several things, could even be filtering out organizational info to a third party, it runs the gamut. Maybe it has nothing to do with his competence.

One thing is certain, however. If he was truly unworthy of being a scout with the Habs, why did they only let him go so close to the draft? It's odd.

Great post.

Information is power this time of year, and maybe he was a little loose with information.

Heck, maybe he unofficially approached the Canes with an offer of information for an expanded role / job.

Say what you want about Dudley but he's a stand up guy with integrity...he'd call Bergy in that scenario.

Either way, the timing is just plain weird.
 
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Runner77

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Saying they were bad hires, is different than saying he hired them becasue they were his friends based on bs links.

You talk about hire players who do not have a requisite experience.. the hires you mentioned.. Martin Lapointe, was working as scout already with the Blackhawks, Lefebvre was a D coach for the Avs, JJD was the D coach for the Hartford in the AHL. Scott Mellanby had been Ast coach, then scout for the Blues, and advisor to the GM with Van City.

None of those hires were drastic jumps you don't see around the league.

I understand the points you're making.

However, they fall under the general purview of what the Habs should be able to afford and target in terms of being a high revenue team spending non-Cap money. It all flows from there.

I'm merely arguing that I don't really care who the hires are provided they are the best or amongst the best in the business. Are Lapointe, Mellanby and Lefebvre the best in the business? A team that has cratered as the Habs did last year and that failed to make the playoffs 2 out of the last 3 years -- do Lapointe and Mellanby assume any responsibility? Was an objective evaluation of their abilities, conducted? They've been with the team closely after Bergevin began his tenure.

At the end of the day, I'm not going to construct a family tree of cronies just because I'm not an insider when it comes to Bergevin's past and will leave that to an enterprising investigative journalist who can get paid for his work. I don't know what "bs links" you are referring to but if it's what posters emit as opinions or conclusions in their posts, then this whole site is made up of "bs links".

Main thing from the perspective of the Habs owning a better management team going forward, is to have more stringent reviews of who they hire and whether they are the most competent. The Habs are in a unique position to be able to overpay for the best. Should they not use the advantage they have in that regard? That's the issue.

The crony part tends to rise more prominently to the surface when the team is in the woeful state it's currently in -- it's a low hanging fruit and it gets predictably hit upon, rightly or wrongly.
 

habs03

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I understand the points you're making.

However, they fall under the general purview of what the Habs should be able to afford and target in terms of being a high revenue team spending non-Cap money. It all flows from there.

I'm merely arguing that I don't really care who the hires are provided they are the best or amongst the best in the business. Are Lapointe, Mellanby and Lefebvre the best in the business? A team that has cratered as the Habs did last year and that failed to make the playoffs 2 out of the last 3 years -- do Lapointe and Mellanby assume any responsibility? Was an objective evaluation of their abilities, conducted? They've been with the team closely after Bergevin began his tenure.

At the end of the day, I'm not going to construct a family tree of cronies just because I'm not an insider when it comes to Bergevin's past and will leave that to an enterprising investigative journalist who can get paid for his work. I don't know what "bs links" you are referring to but if it's what posters emit as opinions or conclusions in their posts, then this whole site is made up of "bs links".

Main thing from the perspective of the Habs owning a better management team going forward, is to have more stringent reviews of who they hire and whether they are the most competent. The Habs are in a unique position to be able to overpay for the best. Should they not use the advantage they have in that regard? That's the issue.

The crony part tends to rise more prominently to the surface when the team is in the woeful state it's currently in -- it's a low hanging fruit and it gets predictably hit upon, rightly or wrongly.

I agree with you 100% on asking question like how responsible are these guys for the results. But I its a cop out to just say he hires his friends.

Generally speaking guys hire guys that they have some sort of relationship, Lou just hired with NY has rumors of Jacques Lemaire, coming with him, and even MT who is linked to Lemaire. (from Fiedmens 31 thoughts)

From that same article it says Mark Hunter might be on Mtl radar, and I don't see him having any link to Bergevin..
 

Runner77

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I agree with you 100% on asking question like how responsible are these guys for the results. But I its a cop out to just say he hires his friends.

Generally speaking guys hire guys that they have some sort of relationship, Lou just hired with NY has rumors of Jacques Lemaire, coming with him, and even MT who is linked to Lemaire. (from Fiedmens 31 thoughts)

From that same article it says Mark Hunter might be on Mtl radar, and I don't see him having any link to Bergevin..

First off, no one is saying he just hires his friends. That's obviously not the case.

Second, I don't have an issue with hiring friends and family for the reasons I gave in several of my posts, above. However, if you're going to use Lemaire as an example, I believe he has a certain track record which makes him a decent hire. He's someone management would seek out, especially in a transition situation. He's been around a long time, he's not looking for a permanent position, he's as close to retirement as you can get. He can provide valuable insight after years of experience and performing similar duties with other organizations, so his hiring can be defended on the foregoing basis alone. No one will care if he has a close friendship with Lamoriello or not.

Third, are you sure the Mark Hunter reference is not another "bs link"? :wg:
 

groovejuice

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Habs continue to get rid of guys, who do not have the right attitude, and who also helped with the old regime, on the menu food items at Da Bell Centre.

Glad the draft is close, it will provide us with some real stuff to talk about....

If the site doesn't crash in the first 30 minutes. I'm wary about the new server as we've had several slowdowns and downright stoppages.
 
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habs03

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First off, no one is saying he just hires his friends. That's obviously not the case.

Second, I don't have an issue with hiring friends and family for the reasons I gave in several of my posts, above. However, if you're going to use Lemaire as an example, I believe he has a certain track record which makes him a decent hire. He's someone management would seek out, especially in a transition situation. He's been around a long time, he's not looking for a permanent position, he's as close to retirement as you can get. He can provide valuable insight after years of experience and performing similar duties with other organizations, so his hiring can be defended on the foregoing basis alone. No one will care if he has a close friendship with Lamoriello or not.

Third, are you sure the Mark Hunter reference is not another "bs link"? :wg:

So your issue is the Bergevin don't people that are good at their job then I'm not here to debate that.

But the original remark wasn't about if he was good/bad scout, just making a "bs link" that he was hired because of his father...

With the spotlight now on Ludzik, his background adds another notch to the growing list of nepotist hirings by Bergevin:

Spearmint Rhino said:
He's the son of Steve Ludzik, MBs teammate in Chicago, maybe he was useless at his job just like the other Friends and Family gang so I have no problem with this and how he was told - 2 years into the job what does he expect a going away party?​
dinodebino said:
The funny thing here is I didn't know that he had even hired the son of a friend as a scout! :laugh: It never ends!!! This guy is a riot!​
I wonder how many more sons and relatives of friends and family have been hired by Bergevin. I guess we're only going to figure it out completely, when they're all let
 

Runner77

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So your issue is the Bergevin don't people that are good at their job then I'm not here to debate that.

Where there is smoke, there is fire. You can't completely dismiss that Bergevin has hired on the basis of close friendships and how the individuals who have benefited are not the best or amongst the best in the business. It's the latter part that's hurting the organization moreso than whether they are cronies or not. I really have no interest in dedicating time to find out who exactly benefited or by how much. It doesn't pay enough.
 
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jackeymoon

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So he alone drafted Sergachev and Mete eh?
That's not how scouting works. I am fairly certain if he was "the guy" that found these prospects he would still me with the team.

Pretty sure the Habs only had one main OHL scout and one part time scout. So ya, he was primarily responsible for those guys. Even Grant “Bootlicker” McCagg said the Habs only had one PT scout in the OHl two years ago
 
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habs03

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Where there is smoke, there is fire. You can't completely dismiss that Bergevin has hired on the basis of close friendships and how the individuals who have benefited are not the best or amongst the best in the business. It's the latter part that's hurting the organization moreso than whether they are cronies or not. I really have no interest in dedicating time to find out who exactly benefited or by how much. It doesn't pay enough.

Its almost impossible to judge if they are good/bad at their job from an outsider pov. Unless your on the inside, how do you judge if Lapointe/ Mellanby are good, what are they exactly responsible for?

Serigo Memesso, f***ed up on radio once and mentioned how he wanted to meet with Bergevin once to try to get a job.. never got it.

If you look around the league, people hire guys they know/trust/worked with. Doesn't mean they are hiring their unqualified friends.

Stevie Yzerman has Pat Verbeek as Ast GM, what has he done to get that job (using your argument) and a Chris Yzerman as scout.. hmmm.
 

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