World Cup: Group F: South Korea vs. Germany, Mexico vs. Sweden; 6/27/2018

Who advances?


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    59

John Pedro

Registered User
Feb 6, 2014
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I was hoping that if I wished hard enough for it to happen that Jogi might not be a complete moron this time...like in 2014...but once I saw the 23 he picked that became harder to believe in with much conviction. Especially given all of the time we spent playing 1 or 2 men down because Jogi insisted on giving Khedira's corpse & Draxler minutes.

But I do have plenty of crow to eat lol, so don't feel bad about giving it to me. I'm actually more optimistic than I've been since the boys got off the plane from Rio...as something like this is the best hope we have ever had of getting rid of Löw :laugh:

It doesn't hurt that I'm still in that hopeful phase where I'm optimistic about the likes of Khedira, Müller & Draxler retiring from international football after that embarassment

That Germany side from Confederations Cup would do a better job than this old version still riding the hype from 2014.

Boateng-Sule-Hummels
Kimmich-Goretzka-Dahoud-?
Stindl-Sane
Werner
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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Its indeed a shame that Boateng and Hummels were required to be the best players all over the pitch in the games they played in. Or that Hummels with a neck injury and reported slipped disc was way up front pounding headers in the general direction of the net.

Really where was anybody else. This was a squad that looked interested in going home for the most part. I'm still wondering what Kimmich does, Saw 20minutes all tournament of Werner doing something.

ps I thought Gomez was contractually obligated not to score for Germany. Or its been my longterm impression that he's secretly playing for Spain. Or Mexico..

Bolded, haha.

I can't really complain about Werner & Brandt, they came a few inches away from doing what they do for their clubs on multiple occasions...but they are the only forwards I can say that for...Reus was ok.


Kimmich did his thing progressing the ball forward on the right and covering the RW offensively so that the nominal RW can move inside...we just didn't have the midfield to cover the space behind him when he pushed forward, or the movement up front for his contributions to yield the same results that we are accustomed to seeing from him.


Leon had some bright moments, especially in transition (both ways)...as well as some moments that highlighted why I question his ability to play as an 8 for a side that sees as much of the ball as the NT or Bayern. When he's running and can just play the ball into space without thinking, or press the ball/passing-lanes after a loss of possession, he looks like a true stallion. But then when the defense is organized he spends three or four seconds on the ball deciding what to do if he doesn't just play it back to whoever gave it to him.

Such a shame that he won't get to be molded by Nagelsmann at Bayern & instead is stuck with Kovac...who might be even worse with youths than he is with possession.


Gundogan helped by giving Kroos & the CBs someone to link to the attack through, but he barely played and so we spent like 95% of the WC split into 5-6 guys standing around on the edge of the opposition box, 3-4 guys in our own half trying to figure out how to get the ball to those guys efficiently, and Mesut being stuck with linking the two by himself.


Oh well, this is what happens when your coach screws up a third (if not a half) of the squad selection & doesn't actually understand the tactics of the game.
 
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Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
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France
Kimmich was beaten more than a cuban hooker in a Mexican NT party on the right side defensively.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,225
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Kimmich was beaten more than a cuban hooker in a Mexican NT party on the right side defensively.

I don't know if I just watch the wrong games, but almost every time I watch him play, he's absolutely terrible.

I hear that he does well in other games, but I rarely see it. Don't know if thats just me or he's very overrated. I can't decide.
 

Bon Esprit

Registered User
Jan 24, 2004
4,856
438
Apparently Germany team officials are meeting tonight to decide the future. My guess is that they will all tell each other that they're doing a bang up job and no personnel changes are needed.
Read that, too and it's ridiculous. Grindel himself said that he and the other dfb clows just renewed Löw's contract and even after this disaster they are confident he could fix the team.
 
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nickp91

Registered User
Jun 29, 2011
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627
Still upset over Germany going out. Hoping they can learn from this and come back stronger for the Euro Championships in 2020
 

TheMoreYouKnow

Registered User
May 3, 2007
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Read that, too and it's ridiculous. Grindel himself said that he and the other dfb clows just renewed Löw's contract and even after this disaster they are confident he could fix the team.

It's all political, and it seems like all those people have linked their fates to each other.

But I honestly don't see how Löw's position is tenable. It's not just that the team went out, it's how they went out and how his failures as a manager were exposed. You can't lose 2 out of 3 (with 1 lucky win) in this group with that quality at your disposal. If that many players fail and if they fail similarly in different lineup combinations, the issue is structural, and it's on the manager.

It's not just about tactics and deciding on the squad and lineup either..it's also communication and motivation. We all know there's an expiration date on coaches in sports, Löw is obviously past it. Even if he stays now, it will just mean more drama over the next months.

Remember how the DFB was too cowardly to sack Vogts after WC 98, but it was obvious no-one had any confidence in him anymore..so he ended up getting sacked in the fall instead. Back then they paid for their failure to read the tea leaves with a farcical coaching search ending up in perhaps the worst ever appointment a major FA had made..lets hope they dont repeat their mistake.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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That Germany side from Confederations Cup would do a better job than this old version still riding the hype from 2014.

Boateng-Sule-Hummels
Kimmich-Goretzka-Dahoud-?
Stindl-Sane
Werner

Stindl (like Geiger & Gnabry) is currently injured, so if we leaned more on the Confed Cup & U21 champions we'd have as our ideal formation, something looking more like:

Werner - Brandt**
Sane - Dahoud - Havertz* - Kimmich
Weigl
/Meyer
Hummels - Süle - Boateng
ter Stegen


Bench:
**Füllkrug/Uth | **Philipp | *Amiri/Demirbay | *Goretzka | Meyer | Kramer/Rudy | Weiser | Hector | Tah | Rüdiger/Kehrer | Baumann
-----------------------------------------------------
Werner
Sane/Havertz* - Brandt
Sane
/Hector - Dahoud - Weigl/Meyer - Kimmich
Hummels - Süle - Boateng
ter Stegen


Bench:
*Füllkrug/Uth | *Philipp | *Amiri/Demirbay | *Goretzka | Meyer | Kramer/Rudy | Weiser | Hector | Tah | Rüdiger/Kehrer | Baumann

although if I was really getting wild with it & putting whoever I wanted in regardless of whether they were integrated into the NT circuit already or not:
-Kruse would be starting for us up front

-I'd bring Reus back, he's still hungry with the NT and because of how much time he's spent in the shop, he doesn't have anywhere near as much mileage on him as most NTers in his age group.

-Gotze would be starting in place of Havertz or whomever to complete the: shoulda-been-BVB's-starting-midfield-trio

-Hector's spot would be given to Henrichs or Klostermann and would either play LB themselves, or would battle Weiser on the right while Kimmich switched to the left when Sane isn't at Wingback.

-Vogt would be rotating into that back 3 with those Bayern boys

-Kempf would take Rüdiger's place of holding off Kehrer & Torunarigha for the 6th CB...if I even brought a 6th CB with Vogt n Tah alongside the Bayern trio...

-I would probably keep Ozil in the starting 11 as well...if he even wants to play for the NT anymore...since he did well in the pseudo-8 role that he ended up having to play and delivered some final balls that I don't trust any other german to come up with consistently yet.



Hopefully we look a lot more like this than the shit that Jogi drew up, when this next cycle kicks off.
 
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Live in the Now

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Dec 17, 2005
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I thought Kimmich in the Mexico game was more because Lozano was excellent. It is borderline impossible for a fullback to stop wide players of the quality in football now, and nobody was helping Kimmich and forcing Lozano into 1 v. 2. Ultimately their defensive organization was totally ridiculous.
 
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Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
61,956
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France
I thought Kimmich in the Mexico game was more because Lozano was excellent. It is borderline impossible for a fullback to stop wide players of the quality in football now, and nobody was helping Kimmich and forcing Lozano into 1 v. 2. Ultimately their defensive organization was totally ridiculous.
He was awful defensively against Sweden too.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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Kimmich was beaten more than a cuban hooker in a Mexican NT party on the right side defensively.

I'd say that the space behind him was abused more than the matrix effect after the first film came out. When Kimmich was actually back defensively he won the ball back effectively and the controlled passing lanes, just like we've seen from him for years with Bayern. We just didn't have the midfield support structure to cover those halfspaces & wider areas when he had moved forward.
 

Bon Esprit

Registered User
Jan 24, 2004
4,856
438
It's all political, and it seems like all those people have linked their fates to each other.

But I honestly don't see how Löw's position is tenable. It's not just that the team went out, it's how they went out and how his failures as a manager were exposed. You can't lose 2 out of 3 (with 1 lucky win) in this group with that quality at your disposal. If that many players fail and if they fail similarly in different lineup combinations, the issue is structural, and it's on the manager.

It's not just about tactics and deciding on the squad and lineup either..it's also communication and motivation. We all know there's an expiration date on coaches in sports, Löw is obviously past it. Even if he stays now, it will just mean more drama over the next months.

Remember how the DFB was too cowardly to sack Vogts after WC 98, but it was obvious no-one had any confidence in him anymore..so he ended up getting sacked in the fall instead. Back then they paid for their failure to read the tea leaves with a farcical coaching search ending up in perhaps the worst ever appointment a major FA had made..lets hope they dont repeat their mistake.
Yeah, right, then Erich Ribbeck happened. :laugh:
I am totally against having a NT coach around for 10+ years. It would have been right to move on after 2016. But the DfB is like the mafia.
 
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Nalens Oga

Registered User
Jan 5, 2010
16,780
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Kimmich is not Phillip Lahm defensively. He generally has Boateng/Hummels/Sule covering for him plus Bayern usually dominate so he can bomb forward a tonne. I still think he's the best RB option for the national team but I personally think it's time to switch to 3 at the back, especially considering there's no world class LB in the lineup. Reus and Sane should always have been the wingers for this team.

I'm not really worried about the personnel, this team should still be favourites to win Euro 2020 but you need a proper f***ing coach in there.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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Germany never looked like scoring, that tells you how bad they were.

German could've scored 4 goals in the last ~15 minutes if Hummels & Gomez had nailed their headers...this team f***ed a lot up, but one of the only critiques they aren't guilty of is failing to create any dangerous scenes
 

Alex Jones

BIG BOWL 'A CHILI!!
Jun 8, 2009
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Some thoughts to wrap up the tournament.

Despite the win today, still somewhat disappointed. Hopefully this won't save Coach Shit's job and he will get the axe.

As with every WC, you get to see who some players really are. A few Korean players had some redemption, but several showed that they are not up to the task.

Breakout players:

Cho Hyun-Woo. Not just one of the breakout players for Korea, but one of the breakout players for the tournament. Had outstanding saves in every match, and showed great decision making coming forward for the ball. Had very sure hands and caught a ton of balls. Can't say his distribution is good, but in terms of play around his box he was great.


On the redemption list:

Lee Yong. I have been a huge detractor of his for a long time, but I'll be goddamned if he didn't defend really well in every match. Still doesn't offer much going forward, but played his role really well.

Kim Young Kwon. I heard for so many years that was the future of Korean football, that he was the modern defender that we needed to move forward as a team. For years and years he played so poorly and made mistakes at every big tournament...

He was outstanding again today. His positional awareness, tackling, interventions, everything has been outstanding this tournament. If you could guarantee that he could play like this consistently he would be worth 30m+. Best I have seen a Korean defender play since the early 2000's.


Failure players:

Some players (like Jung) you know will fail, others you at least have hope for...

Koo Ja-Cheol. It's over for him. He was a nice player for many years, but it's over. He looks slow, he's injured every other week, his ball skills have gone down a lot...it's over. Was hoping he still had this WC to go, but I think he's done. Still may make a few more NT appearances, but time to phase him out.

Ki Seung-Young. Over for him as well. He's still pretty good on the ball, but his absolute lack of mobility and poor defensive awareness are killing us. He will still appear for the NT for a few years, but I hope his role starts to diminish as he needs so much protection that we can't provide.

Park Joo-Hoo. Another done player. I know he got injured early in the first match, but there was hope he could get a little juice back in his career after spending three seasons on the bench at Dortmund. LOL no. Time to find someone new.

Lee Jae-Sung. Yea dude, you're not going to Bundesliga. Pretty solid defensively, but just nothing with the ball at his feet. Not enough dribbling ability, no final ball. Enjoy your K-League career, it's all you're getting.

Moon Seon-Min. How did you become a professional footballer??

Jang Hyun-Soo. Please just never appear again. Seriously. How have three NT managers in a row now thought he was good enough to start? I guess maybe he's a training ground superstar or something. Panics nonstop out there and makes so many mistakes...Out of the three goals given up was responsible for two of them. Terrible with the ball as well, loves to pass to the other team. I guess I had some hope deep down that this was the tournament he would figure it out and play up to his potential, but his weak mentality will always break him.

Lee Seung-Woo. Barcelona boy with a total failure of a tournament. Have a sinking feeling he's going to be playing K-league soon. Just not enough skill there. Undersized but doesn't have the skill or pace to really beat defenders, not strong enough and his shooting is trash. Plays hard and has heart, but I just don't see what his route is to continue to play at the highest level.

Hwang Hee-Chan. Showed what we already knew about him. Very athletic, has some good skill one on one, aggressive and a great presser...The other skills just aren't there. Touch is poor, awareness is bad, shooting bad for a striker. Got in good positions, but didn't do enough with it. Hoped he could show something that would give hope for his future, but I don't think he will ever succeed in a top five league.
 
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Pouchkine

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May 20, 2015
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German could've scored 4 goals in the last ~15 minutes if Hummels & Gomez had nailed their headers...this team ****ed a lot up, but one of the only critiques they aren't guilty of is failing to create any dangerous scenes
Half chances.
 

Sabresfansince1980

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It's not just about tactics and deciding on the squad and lineup either..it's also communication and motivation. We all know there's an expiration date on coaches in sports, Löw is obviously past it. Even if he stays now, it will just mean more drama over the next months.

I agree, and believe this mindset trickled into the team's attitude as well. I rarely saw an urgent mindset or body language during these matches (and going back further to Brazil and Spain).

To beat a dead horse about line-ups, and avoiding drawn out team selection controversy, Low NEVER got his best XI out there during group...unacceptable. From his 23, he should've had...

Neuer
Kimmich-Boateng-Hummels-Hector
Rudy-Kroos
Brandt-Ozil/Reus-Reus/Werner
Werner/Gomez

Or as others have pointed out, use a back three, but I won't bother listing hypotheticals to that extent. But for Low to say how he was saving Reus early, simply proves overconfidence bordering arrogance.
 
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cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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Half chances.

First of all, free headers in the box are not half chances, but even if they were talented teams score on way too many "half chances" for that distinction to provide any real difference :dunno:

Brandt rung the posts twice with half chances that were inches from being goals, would the goals have been worth less? Werner buries the two half chances he had in the first 7 minutes against Mexico 7 or 8 times out of 10 typically, so should we mark down his goal tally for converting on so many "half chances"? Top class footballers do top class footballer things.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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Kimmich is not Phillip Lahm defensively. He generally has Boateng/Hummels/Sule covering for him plus Bayern usually dominate so he can bomb forward a tonne. I still think he's the best RB option for the national team but I personally think it's time to switch to 3 at the back, especially considering there's no world class LB in the lineup. Reus and Sane should always have been the wingers for this team.

I'm not really worried about the personnel, this team should still be favourites to win Euro 2020 but you need a proper ****ing coach in there.

It's more of a usage thing with him. At Bayern he's also often pushed way up the field because they've had some idiot coaches that insisted on thinking that Müller was a typical winger winger...and not just a shadow striker who has played on the wing...so they expect him to cover that wide area, but he knows that to be effective he needs to be making runs into the box that pester the defense which leaves Joshua needing to tear up the pitch to keep their attacking structure from sagging in asymmetrically.

It's lead to some bad habits if a coach doesn't provide the correct structure behind him to cover for his bombastic runs. So we either needed to instruct him to hang back more, or bring another body into that deeper part of the pitch which let them shuttle out to cover for him. A situation in the face of whom Jogi courageously decided to do nothing.

Kimmich should've realized that listening to Jogi's instructions is suicidal, but he's still young. So it's hard for me to blame him too much for actually listening too his idiot coach.
 

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