World Cup: Group F: Germany vs. Mexico, 6/17/2018

Result?


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Drivesaitl

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My fictional claim? Denmark didn't take over ****. Their goal was completely against the run of play.

There's nothing wrong with Peru being here either. Your whole point is nonsense.

The mirror sees the match exactly as I did.

World Cup 2018: Poulsen scores as Denmark down Peru by a solitary goal

Anything else is score effects with Denmark having the lead in 2nd half and Peru desperate to press for the tie. Denmark didn't need a goal, Peru did, not sure what was confusing.

You must have watched a different game.
 

Moncherry

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Feb 5, 2010
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Good for you that some random media outlet sees the game the way you did. I could also pull up a bunch of articles stating Peru deserved the victory. Doesn't change how Peru controlled the flow of the game and had the better chances both before and after Denmark's goal.

And another thing, it's amusing how you can't see the irony in the fact that you state the reason Peru beat out Chile was the awarded 3-0 win because of Bolivia's suspended player, when it was Chile themselves who made the appeal and they also benefited from extra points.

Chile didn't qualify because they screwed up the rest of their campaign. They weren't good enough, Peru went unbeaten to finish their campaign. That's all there is to it.
 

Drivesaitl

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Good for you that some random media outlet sees the game the way you did. I could also pull up a bunch of articles stating Peru deserved the victory. Doesn't change how Peru controlled the flow of the game and had the better chances both before and after Denmark's goal.

And another thing, it's amusing how you can't see the irony in the fact that you state the reason Peru beat out Chile was the awarded 3-0 win because of Bolivia's suspended player, when it was Chile themselves who made the appeal and they also benefited from extra points.

Chile didn't qualify because they screwed up the rest of their campaign. They weren't good enough, Peru went unbeaten to finish their campaign. That's all there is to it.

I know Chile made the appeal, it is ironic. It doesn't alter what occurred. At the moment it would be a sensible decision for Chile to appeal. ultimately it was their undoing, as was losing some games to lesser opponents. I do agree with you Chile lost some games they shouldn't. But they beat Peru both games. To me that should be the tiebreaker, not goal differential.

ps I did lol when Peru couldn't even hit the net on a penalty kick sailing the ball way high. Gifted a pk on a suspect VAR ruling (only one angle shown in replays in telecast) and Peru handed a gift and peru still can't score.

anyway enough of that, I've admitted my Chile bias. enjoy the tournament.
 
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Drivesaitl

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Suspect VAR ruling?
It was a foul. How is that suspect? You're reaching so much here it's not even funny.

It wasn't called in realtime, it wouldn't have been a call at all without VAR, used for the first time and guaranteed to be controversial often before this tournament is out.

The usage of Var has also been amateurish. There seems to be not a clue how to implement it. In the Sweden vs Korea game Korea broke out with the ball and had a wide open chance on net with a guy breaking free to the ball when the ref called it back. FIFA and the commentators mentioned that was improper procedure. Because Korea could have scored there in which case if the Sweden VAR reveals no goal that means it was play on and thus a Korea goal if they scored. The commentators on TSN were just blasting that one. As far as the Peru VAR awarded penalty kick TSN showed one angle repeatedly 5 times instead of showing multiple angle replays. From what was shown it didn't look like the player was even touched. Now heres the kicker, due to copyright restrictions I can't even watch the replay from any other source here than from TSN in Canada. Which sucks actually. So I'll take your word for it being legit call.

But people will be cursing VAR usage before this tournament is out. Basically there should also be some stats kept on how many VAR reviews each team gets because basically the amount of VAR calls would obviously have some correlation to the amount of penalty kicks ultimately awarded. Guess nobody thought about that...

This is just another way in which a match can be controversial and decided arbitrarily. The intent is good, superficially it can be good, but VAR is going to also encounter those close calls where its still a 50/50 call even with the replays. One of the coaches had complained about that already.

Note the controversy in the England match. This is just another gongshow intervention. The calls are inconsistent, just lead to more questions, and reviews of close calls are always going to be controversial.
 
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Sabresfansince1980

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So I watched some highlites and on the goal, Khedira gets taken down on what would be a foul called 8 out of 10 times. We saw how the match was being called up until then, so not much of a surprise how it went. Anyway, Mexico finds acres of open land between the mids and back line. Hummels fails on the challenge that starts the counter attack, and then slips taking himself completely out of the play. Ozil runs back to cover, taking a slightly off route toward Lozano but at least he gave a full effort. Kroos is at full speed coming back until the final pass from Chicharito to Lozano. At that point Kroos does the unforgivable and simply starts to jog back. Lozano takes the pass and cuts right leaving Ozil in the dust (Ozil looked like a school boy while I said to myself "careful he's going to cut back"). Lozano then squares up for the shot from 11 yards, and only then does Kroos feel it necessary in a World Cup opener to again provide a full effort during a prime scoring chance against. Kroos is a foot away from blocking the winning goal, when a full effort would've prevented the shot from even being taken. Neuer had little chance unless the ball hit his palm completely square.

This is the type of poor play that Hummels and Boateng described post match, comparing their struggles against Austria and Saudi Arabia (even though friendlies don't matter, right?!?). They not only had a poor gameplan, and worse a poor execution of the gameplan...they lacked a mental and physical determination that is simply not even respectable. To not provide a full effort in a desperate moment is flat out disrespectful to the crest. I wish I hadn't immediately canceled my DVR recording of the match, or I could more accurately critique the mess. Perhaps it's for the best though.
 
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TheMoreYouKnow

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So I watched some highlites and on the goal, Khedira gets taken down on what would be a foul called 8 out of 10 times. We saw how the match was being called up until then, so not much of a surprise how it went. Anyway, Mexico finds acres of open land between the mids and back line. Hummels fails on the challenge that starts the counter attack, and then slips taking himself completely out of the play. Ozil runs back to cover, taking a slightly off route toward Lozano but at least he gave a full effort. Kroos is at full speed coming back until the final pass from Chicharito to Lozano. At that point Kroos does the unforgivable and simply starts to jog back. Lozano takes the pass and cuts right leaving Ozil in the dust (Ozil looked like a school boy while I said to myself "careful he's going to cut back"). Lozano then squares up for the shot from 11 yards, and only then does Kroos feel it necessary in a World Cup opener to again provide a full effort during a prime scoring chance against. Kroos is a foot away from blocking the winning goal, when a full effort would've prevented the shot from even being taken. Neuer had little chance unless the ball hit his palm completely square.

This is the type of poor play that Hummels and Boateng described post match, comparing their struggles against Austria and Saudi Arabia (even though friendlies don't matter, right?!?). They not only had a poor gameplan, and worse a poor execution of the gameplan...they lacked a mental and physical determination that is simply not even respectable. To not provide a full effort in a desperate moment is flat out disrespectful to the crest. I wish I hadn't immediately canceled my DVR recording of the match, or I could more accurately critique the mess. Perhaps it's for the best though.

Kroos is a luxury player. He tends to play like the game is none of his business when the other side has the ball; that's why you need to play a defensively oriented, hard working guy next to him. Unfortunately, Khedira isn't that guy at this point and unfortunately we don't seem to have a guy on the squad to play that role. Kramer may have been the best guy to take for that purpose..
 
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cgf

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The solution to not bringing Kramer...which we all agree is one Jogi’s greatest ever errors...is to pair Kroos with Ilkay & replace Draxler with either LeGo or Süle.

The Mexican counters came as much because we had no one helping Toni link our attacks until Mesut starting dropping deep; as they did because of how barren we were in that part of the pitch once the balls where lost.
 

cgf

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It might be unfair because of how the match unfolded and the fact he did have a few chances, but I felt like there was a 40 minute stretch or so where I did not see Werner. Now the same can be said of a few players, but he's the lone forward so you'd expect him to be a focal point of play.

Oh Werner needs to be much better, but I actually feel like the NT has a good sense for how to play him in...and we saw that in that opening phase of the game where it looked like we might score 5.

We just didn’t get any chance to do so after Mexico came to life & Mesut was pulled deeper n deeper.
 

Nalens Oga

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You can't take Draxler out for Sule/Goretzka, then you'd have nothing on the left flank, it needs to be Reus or Brandt (well Sane but...). I'd just take Khedira out. I think Werner is still Germany's best option up front, the problem is that the team wasn't able to get him any good through balls in the last game and the delivery wasn't that great either, he's not the best target man for long balls or crosses, need to play a passing/counter game for him to do well.

Really let's be honest though, if Low was this oblivious to that starting lineup and thought Khedira/Kroos in that midfield would be good enough and if he thought Draxler/Muller should've started over Reus, then it's pretty clear that you can't have any faith in the guy and that he's missing a bulb.
 

Drivesaitl

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Kroos is a luxury player. He tends to play like the game is none of his business when the other side has the ball; that's why you need to play a defensively oriented, hard working guy next to him. Unfortunately, Khedira isn't that guy at this point and unfortunately we don't seem to have a guy on the squad to play that role. Kramer may have been the best guy to take for that purpose..

Not much wonder at how much Schweinsteiger is missed and how many flaws in other players he covered for. First times I saw Bastian play I knew he would be special and that Germany would have an epoch during his tenure. You just can't replace that work rate and physical compete. Dominating player with a heart of a lion and endless energy. Theres a hole in Germanys lineup that doesn't get filled by one player. Maybe some more buy in from everybody to play a more sensible positional game and be a little better in midfield. This team was so much better with or without the ball with Schweini. They miss 2002-10 era Lahm as well.

I do have a sneaking suspicion that discord has crept into the German lineup. They were not playing like a team, have not gelled, and one got no sense of the more typical German comradery out on the pitch. Maybe because the game went south from the first moments but there was no joy in the German side throughout. That too is untypical. I do think one of the Low era strengths as devising movements wherein the players could have some fun on the ball and creating speed through deft ball movement and enjoying playing with each other. The orchestration was often missing/disjointed. Again the good news is Germany played much better in 2nd half. Had they not been chasing a result by then their play may have looked much more sensible. There was so much more meaningful German movement generated in the 2nd half.

But if this Mexico game was viewed in isolation, you'd wonder about the chemistry of this current team and if its really getting along well. I keep going back to this but I saw concern etched on the German leaders before the game even started. They were tense, unnerved, worried. last time I saw this team like that they were playing Spain in 2010 WC. Other than Algeria those were the last times this German team was so tight at WC .
 

Evilo

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It wasn't called in realtime, it wouldn't have been a call at all without VAR, used for the first time and guaranteed to be controversial often before this tournament is out.

The usage of Var has also been amateurish. There seems to be not a clue how to implement it. In the Sweden vs Korea game Korea broke out with the ball and had a wide open chance on net with a guy breaking free to the ball when the ref called it back. FIFA and the commentators mentioned that was improper procedure. Because Korea could have scored there in which case if the Sweden VAR reveals no goal that means it was play on and thus a Korea goal if they scored. The commentators on TSN were just blasting that one. As far as the Peru VAR awarded penalty kick TSN showed one angle repeatedly 5 times instead of showing multiple angle replays. From what was shown it didn't look like the player was even touched. Now heres the kicker, due to copyright restrictions I can't even watch the replay from any other source here than from TSN in Canada. Which sucks actually. So I'll take your word for it being legit call.

But people will be cursing VAR usage before this tournament is out. Basically there should also be some stats kept on how many VAR reviews each team gets because basically the amount of VAR calls would obviously have some correlation to the amount of penalty kicks ultimately awarded. Guess nobody thought about that...

This is just another way in which a match can be controversial and decided arbitrarily. The intent is good, superficially it can be good, but VAR is going to also encounter those close calls where its still a 50/50 call even with the replays. One of the coaches had complained about that already.

Note the controversy in the England match. This is just another gongshow intervention. The calls are inconsistent, just lead to more questions, and reviews of close calls are always going to be controversial.
Still I don't get why you think it's suspect to discredit the value of a team.
It's like saying in the NHL team A is not very good because their goal was awarded through VAR even though everyone could see it was the right ruling. :dunno:
 

Sabresfansince1980

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Again...any lack of chemistry is yet another reason why the overly analytical approach to friendlies is a mistake these days. You just can't constantly tinker with tactics and evaluations of new players, and then expect your "best XI" to be able to simply show up at the group stage and succeed. The best XI need to play together for several semi-competitive matches - ie friendlies that you decide to take seriously for a change. National sides are catching up to the traditional powers and Low et al need to realize that this great thing that's about to happen for international football is about to smack Germany (and a few others) in the face.
 

cgf

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You can't take Draxler out for Sule/Goretzka, then you'd have nothing on the left flank, it needs to be Reus or Brandt (well Sane but...). I'd just take Khedira out. I think Werner is still Germany's best option up front, the problem is that the team wasn't able to get him any good through balls in the last game and the delivery wasn't that great either, he's not the best target man for long balls or crosses, need to play a passing/counter game for him to do well.

Really let's be honest though, if Low was this oblivious to that starting lineup and thought Khedira/Kroos in that midfield would be good enough and if he thought Draxler/Muller should've started over Reus, then it's pretty clear that you can't have any faith in the guy and that he's missing a bulb.

Huh? What's wrong with the left flank in the 3-4-1-2 or 4-3-1-2?

Werner - Müller*
Özil
Ilkay - LeGo
Kroos
Hector - Mats - Boa - Kimmich
----------------------------
Werner - Müller*
Özil
Hector - Ilkay - Kroos - Kimmich
Süle - Mats - Boa

*Brandt / Reus
As for Jogi, he does have a history of changing things during tourneys. So it's too early to say he's just incompetent.
 

cgf

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Again...any lack of chemistry is yet another reason why the overly analytical approach to friendlies is a mistake these days. You just can't constantly tinker with tactics and evaluations of new players, and then expect your "best XI" to be able to simply show up at the group stage and succeed. The best XI need to play together for several semi-competitive matches - ie friendlies that you decide to take seriously for a change. National sides are catching up to the traditional powers and Low et al need to realize that this great thing that's about to happen for international football is about to smack Germany (and a few others) in the face.

...that's literally what mexico did...

Anyways I don't see why anyone would blame the chemistry. The problems were structure- & complacency related.
 

Drivesaitl

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Still I don't get why you think it's suspect to discredit the value of a team.
It's like saying in the NHL team A is not very good because their goal was awarded through VAR even though everyone could see it was the right ruling. :dunno:


Reactions can be strange things. I was of course impacted by the brutal Germany game and that probably has something to do with lashing out at Peru or other things in displaced fashion. Then if we're blessed with any obstinancy at all we tend to belabor and attempt to defend the hills we've climbed on in classic internet dialog fashion.

Or the reduced version;

I was bummed out after the Germany loss and taking out frustrations it seems.

A day later and a dollar short the world is again a clearer place. ;)

cheers
 
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Drivesaitl

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...that's literally what mexico did...

Anyways I don't see why anyone would blame the chemistry. The problems were structure- & complacency related.

I think the problems were adherence related. Same thing, but with different derivation. Buy in is definitely lacking, team approach and concerted direction lacking. This is what I meant by Chemistry or gelling. We are seeing more individualistic approach rather than team play.

I mentioned this as well but Kimmich taking a low percentage bicycle kick while he had the ball and space was a low % selfish individual play looking for glory rather than a more typical German approach to take the ball down and slot it in. Just seemed weird to see that kind of thing creep into the German national side. One attribute I've always loved about German National team play is that goals are taken as the opportunity presents itself and utilizing usually the highest percentage approach of getting the ball on goal.

This is of course theoretical but I'm wondering about the sync between younger turks like Kimmich and Werner vs the established WC squad. The tendency is to assume that personalities just mesh but not always the case. Maybe even rarely. The symbiotic approach on the ball Germany had for a dozen years is a rare quantity at the National level and thus the success. But the leaders of that movement are gone.
 

Sabresfansince1980

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...that's literally what mexico did...

Anyways I don't see why anyone would blame the chemistry. The problems were structure- & complacency related.

Well the players themselves said how they weren't on the same page up front and getting in each others' way and space. That's chemistry. Complacency was at least equal part also...less forgivable.

Good on Mexico if they prepared the same way, but bunkering and countering doesn't take much fine tuning imo. I wish Germany would try it once just to throw a side off.
 

Drivesaitl

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Again...any lack of chemistry is yet another reason why the overly analytical approach to friendlies is a mistake these days. You just can't constantly tinker with tactics and evaluations of new players, and then expect your "best XI" to be able to simply show up at the group stage and succeed. The best XI need to play together for several semi-competitive matches - ie friendlies that you decide to take seriously for a change. National sides are catching up to the traditional powers and Low et al need to realize that this great thing that's about to happen for international football is about to smack Germany (and a few others) in the face.

Typically there could be a sense that group stage is time to oil the machine and get it running. Arrogant but I could see that line of thought taking place. However Germany did not have that latitude playing Portugal in 2014 to start and now Mexico. Germany should have been ready and wasn't. Not ready to match pace. You even wonder if buy in for training and physical fitness is not the same in this team as it was in Brazil. They do not have the same step, acceleration, and pace. Sure they are older but the whole team has looked slower.

In Brazil Germany also had the benefit of a home training base near the venues that was their exclusive camp and facility and that allowed them to arrive early, train, and prepare and stay away from the WC circus. I do not know what facilities Germany has in Russia.
 

cgf

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Well the players themselves said how they weren't on the same page up front and getting in each others' way and space. That's chemistry. Complacency was at least equal part also...less forgivable.

Good on Mexico if they prepared the same way, but bunkering and countering doesn't take much fine tuning imo. I wish Germany would try it once just to throw a side off.

Nah, that's just starting Draxler...and the shit structure deeper which didn't get the ball flowing forward to them in dangerous areas once Mexico started to play. They just didn't want to shit on Julian & Jogi.

Mexico most certainly didn't just bunker from the ~10-15th minute to the 40th, when they were bossing the match & got their goal
I think the problems were adherence related. Same thing, but with different derivation. Buy in is definitely lacking, team approach and concerted direction lacking. This is what I meant by Chemistry or gelling. We are seeing more individualistic approach rather than team play.

I mentioned this as well but Kimmich taking a low percentage bicycle kick while he had the ball and space was a low % selfish individual play looking for glory rather than a more typical German approach to take the ball down and slot it in. Just seemed weird to see that kind of thing creep into the German national side. One attribute I've always loved about German National team play is that goals are taken as the opportunity presents itself and utilizing usually the highest percentage approach of getting the ball on goal.

This is of course theoretical but I'm wondering about the sync between younger turks like Kimmich and Werner vs the established WC squad. The tendency is to assume that personalities just mesh but not always the case. Maybe even rarely. The symbiotic approach on the ball Germany had for a dozen years is a rare quantity at the National level and thus the success. But the leaders of that movement are gone.

*shrug* they had that chemistry in qualifying, before Jogi turned back to 2012 with our starting 11 against Mexico. In the 4-3-3/4-1-4-1 and the back three shapes they had that flow that was missing today, even with a mix of kids n oldies.
 
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