Euro: Group C: Germany vs. Poland, 6/16/2016

[Vipers31]

You love to make excuses for Bayern and Germany

I don't have to, at all.

That statement was a very basic and undeniable truth.

but tonight (like in many of Pep's defeats) the whole "keep the ball and do nothing with it" plan exposes huge flaws.

Sure. What's there for an alternative plan against a deep sitting team like this? Sit back yourself and wait out the 90 minutes for the same result? Go with Gomez and bring in 40 crosses hoping he can beat five guys to it? I don't see a proper alternative against an opponent like this. They're not doing us favours like Belgium did for Italy.

Low picked a squad with poor full-back depth and tactics that seem rather outdated.

I'm sure he would have preferred to pick better full-backs.

They were impressive against Ukraine for spells but you're going to have to break down counter-attacking team somehow - I don't think they have any sort of plan at all.

Yeah, I agree with that. (Although I didn't really find us too impressive against Ukraine; not a coincidence we only scored from a free kick and a late counter.) But I don't think any team has done a particularly good job in breaking down counter-attacking sides - and most of them against weaker ones than Poland. Not saying this is enough, just thinking the perspective is a bit overly negative for where things stand.

Kroos... oh man I can't get over how much I love that guy. And how I thumb my nose as his many haters and Bayern fanboys who argued that Thiago and Gotze were ahead of the depth chart. Goes to show, the grass isn't always greener...

Still think he's overrated, and he has done nothing since leaving to change minds. He can bring structure to any team with that need, but he doesn't take a team with existing structure to another level. We need him for Germany, though.

 

[Bon Esprit]

Germany would lose vs Italy with this performance every single time. Italy could defend the German rubbish with ease much like Poland basically did but they have more skill going forward and would finish 1 or 2 counters. It's almost like we saw that exact match at some recent European championship.

Germany NEVER wins against Italy at tournaments. Never. They never did and never will. That's a law of nature like the Newtonian laws.

 

[SenorDingDong]

Germany would lose vs Italy with this performance every single time. Italy could defend the German rubbish with ease much like Poland basically did but they have more skill going forward and would finish 1 or 2 counters. It's almost like we saw that exact match at some recent European championship.

Italy can play terrible against nobody teams, but they are Germany's worst nightmare.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Germany NEVER wins against Italy at tournaments. Never. They never did and never will. That's a law of nature like the Newtonian laws.

Germany could have won in the Euro 96 group stage, 10 Germans more than held their own against 11 Italians who had to win to advance.

 

[Eisen]

Germany NEVER wins against Italy at tournaments. Never. They never did and never will. That's a law of nature like the Newtonian laws.

Pisses me off more than anything in footy (internationally)

 

[Eisen]

Germany could have won in the Euro 96 group stage, 10 Germans more than held their own against 11 Italians who had to win to advance.

I still remember Dieter Eilts fondly for that tournament. He brought his game to a level I never saw before or after.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Sure. What's there for an alternative plan against a deep sitting team like this? Sit back yourself and wait out the 90 minutes for the same result? Go with Gomez and bring in 40 crosses hoping he can beat five guys to it? I don't see a proper alternative against an opponent like this. They're not doing us favours like Belgium did for Italy.

A sort of 4-4-2 would usually break them down, I reckon. Especially if in attack it layers out to something like

Neuer // Howedes, Boateng, Hummels // Kroos, Khedira, Hector // Attackers

Howedes just shouldn't go into the final third.

Still think he's overrated, and he has done nothing since leaving to change minds. He can bring structure to any team with that need, but he doesn't take a team with existing structure to another level. We need him for Germany, though.

Of course you'd say that.

While the rest of the planet is increasingly acknowledging him as a top5 midfielder worldwide.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Italy can play terrible against nobody teams, but they are Germany's worst nightmare.

That second video...



Probably the saddest I've been watching sports. And I'm a die-hard Habs fan.

 

[Vipers31]

A sort of 4-4-2 would usually break them down, I reckon. Especially if in attack it layers out to something like

Neuer // Howedes, Boateng, Hummels // Kroos, Khedira, Hector // Attackers

I don't see that having a better chance at breaking them down. It wouldn't address how we move the ball up the field.

Howedes just shouldn't go into the final third.

Yeah, that we can agree on.

Of course you'd say that.

While the rest of the planet is increasingly acknowledging him as a top5 midfielder worldwide.

That tends to happen when guys start for Real, regardless of whether it's warranted.

 

[yoplait]

That second video...



Probably the saddest I've been watching sports. And I'm a die-hard Habs fan.

Second video is probably the happiest I've been(even more so than the Final because of how well we played), which makes sense since I'm a Sens fan.

 

[Bon Esprit]

I still remember Dieter Eilts fondly for that tournament. He brought his game to a level I never saw before or after.

The worst part is that Germany managed to beat the best teams in the world over the decades like Hungary 54, England 70, Netherlands 74, win aginst Brazil at their own WC and so on and would still loose to the worst Italian team that ever was put on the pitch.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

I don't see that having a better chance at breaking them down. It wouldn't address how we move the ball up the field.

The implication is that the defense will have ~7 people to deal with, two in the box usually.

That tends to happen when guys start for Real, regardless of whether it's warranted.

It's most certainly warranted - champion and key player every time he's won. Terrific in the WC, terrific so far in the Euros, terrific seasons with Madrid... He'd be a starter and a star on any team in the world.

We both know how terrible Thiago has been this year. I guess it makes it sting more.

 

[Vipers31]

The implication is that the defense will have ~7 people to deal with, two in the box usually.

If you make it that many more guys, you're running a much higher risk. We could have done that, but given the group situation, that would have seemed pointless.

It's most certainly warranted - champion and key player every time he's won. Terrific in the WC, terrific so far in the Euros, terrific seasons with Madrid...

There's little "terrific" about his seasons with Madrid, unless standards are way below world class. I wouldn't call either match in this tournament terrific, either. Lower standards for an easier job than the guys up front are facing. More success with that job, obviously, so I can understand him being MOTM vs the Ukraine, but still not really terrific.

We both know how terrible Thiago has been this year. I guess it makes it sting more.

I don't feel anything stinging with him. But yeah, Thiago has had a very disappointing season. Hope he'll be back to being a more impactful player soon, but he does have some ground to make up right now.

 

[les Habs]

While the rest of the planet is increasingly acknowledging him as a top5 midfielder worldwide.

He's not at all a top 5 midfielder. He's barely top 5 in Spain. In fact if you include DMs he's not even top 5 in Spain. Whoever is acknowledging him as such doesn't have the slightest idea what they're talking about.

It's most certainly warranted - champion and key player every time he's won. Terrific in the WC, terrific so far in the Euros, terrific seasons with Madrid... He'd be a starter and a star on any team in the world.

He hasn't had "terrific" seasons with Madrid. He's been good overall but quite inconsistent. He's most certainly not a "star" of Madrid and he wouldn't be star on any team in the World.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

He hasn't had "terrific" seasons with Madrid. He's been good overall but quite inconsistent. He's most certainly not a "star" of Madrid and he wouldn't be star on any team in the World.

Yeah I am sure if Grimsby Town signed him, he'd be an anonymous squad player. Think before typing.

 

[les Habs]

Yeah I am sure if Grimsby Town signed him, he'd be an anonymous squad player. Think before typing.

He said "any". He'd be star on most teams, but not "any" team. He isn't a "star" at Madrid for example and he wouldn't be a star at Barça. Think before typing indeed, something you should think about generally.

 

[Power Man]

Watching "Champions Factory " on BeIN Sports France, a documentary made by a French dude I think

It's about how Germans train and develop their young players .


If yoy can find it somewhere, watch it

Holy **** Germans don't mess around lol

 

[Moncherry]

After watching it again, Milik's miss was even worse than I first realized. Horrendous.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

He said "any". He'd be star on most teams, but not "any" team. He isn't a "star" at Madrid for example and he wouldn't be a star at Barça. Think before typing indeed, something you should think about generally.

"He wouldn't be a star on any team in the world" literally also means "He would be a star on *no* team in the world". Given the general hyperbole of your post that was the more obvious way of reading it.

And Kroos is a guy who is generally quite underrated. If he was Italian and had a fancy beard, he'd be an icon, but he's a flat-faced, dour German so the fact he's one of the most accurate mid to long distance passers I've ever seen (in 30 years of watching) and has a heck of a shot tends to get overlooked. Kroos *does* struggle to be at his best in *every* match and I have been a strong critic of that lack of consistent effort but that never stopped anyone from idolizing Pirlo whose equal Kroos easily is.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Lewa was trash....Poland should've won that game.

 

[les Habs]

"He wouldn't be a star on any team in the world" literally also means "He would be a star on *no* team in the world". Given the general hyperbole of your post that was the more obvious way of reading it.

And Kroos is a guy who is generally quite underrated. If he was Italian and had a fancy beard, he'd be an icon, but he's a flat-faced, dour German so the fact he's one of the most accurate mid to long distance passers I've ever seen (in 30 years of watching) and has a heck of a shot tends to get overlooked. Kroos *does* struggle to be at his best in *every* match and I have been a strong critic of that lack of consistent effort but that never stopped anyone from idolizing Pirlo whose equal Kroos easily is.

Correct, though that clearly wasn't my meaning. I was simply using his term and should have posted "any" and clarified my meaning as you did by posting "every". Nothing hyperbolic about my post either unless you'd like to challenge something.

I find Kroos to be rated accurately in general, though he can be overrated like when someone says that he's a top 5 midfielder in the World or that he'd be a star on any team. As for both he and Pirlo's looks, I could care less. The vast majority of players I've liked in my nearly 25 years of watching the game haven't necessarily been rated for their facial hair much less their hair in general. The guy in my avatar says it all really. Anyway, since you brought Pirlo up, Kroos has a long way to go before he reaches Pirlo status. There's ability and then there's performance. He is inconsistent and his best performances for Madrid are generally reserved for lesser opposition.

I personally rate Kroos. I have for years. Hell, I even drafted him on this very forum when he was something like 20 years old. I'll repeat what I said then too, that he'll be one of the best of his "generation." That said he's not a top 5 midfielder now and to say that is overrating him.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

He's not at all a top 5 midfielder. He's barely top 5 in Spain. In fact if you include DMs he's not even top 5 in Spain. Whoever is acknowledging him as such doesn't have the slightest idea what they're talking about.

I disagree.

He hasn't had "terrific" seasons with Madrid. He's been good overall but quite inconsistent. He's most certainly not a "star" of Madrid and he wouldn't be star on any team in the World.

Different players have different qualities, of course. I think Koke is another fantastic midfielder, for instance, but Kroos' specific talents (touch, passing, vision, poise) not only outweigh his weaknesses but make him so special and extraordinary that, like the poster above said, if he was a bearded, older Italian he'd be revered Pirlo.

Maybe you, like many others, cannot appreciate the specific role and duties of a deep playmaker.

I think Busquets and Iniesta, while previously overrated, are terrific players - Modric, Koke, Saul, Rakitic - great as well. I happen to think that Kroos' specific skills would fit on any team, any system in the world and he'd walk onto Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Liverpool, United, etc. Dortmund and Bayern. Juve, Inter, Napoli... and yes, even Barcelona. Possession has become the name of the game, after all.

I don't even consider myself a Kroos fanboy, I was obsessive about Ballack in my younger days, with Kroos I become incredulous at his doubters. Year after year, he's underrated by so-called knowledgeable fans and pundits. Year after year they're proven wrong.

He's not even at his peak yet.

 

[Live in the Now]

RE: Pirlo, nobody treated him with any kind of reverence until he was 30 years old and the appreciation increased as he got older without his performance dropping at all. Kroos has forever and a day to get to that point. Moreover he'll never be the best player on his national team the way Pirlo was. It's the nature of the sport that he won't be seen the same way.

Kroos wouldn't be a star for every team in the world but there are only a few to which that wouldn't apply. I also think that he isn't as good now as he was when he was with Bayern. Goals have disappeared from his game as an example. He is a world class player though, top ten CM.

 

[les Habs]

I disagree.

Different players have different qualities, of course. I think Koke is another fantastic midfielder, for instance, but Kroos' specific talents (touch, passing, vision, poise) not only outweigh his weaknesses but make him so special and extraordinary that, like the poster above said, if he was a bearded, older Italian he'd be revered Pirlo.

Maybe you, like many others, cannot appreciate the specific role and duties of a deep playmaker.

I think Busquets and Iniesta, while previously overrated, are terrific players - Modric, Koke, Saul, Rakitic - great as well. I happen to think that Kroos' specific skills would fit on any team, any system in the world and he'd walk onto Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Liverpool, United, etc. Dortmund and Bayern. Juve, Inter, Napoli... and yes, even Barcelona. Possession has become the name of the game, after all.

I don't even consider myself a Kroos fanboy, I was obsessive about Ballack in my younger days, with Kroos I become incredulous at his doubters. Year after year, he's underrated by so-called knowledgeable fans and pundits. Year after year they're proven wrong.

He's not even at his peak yet.

Like I said in my reply above, I can definitely appreciate Kroos' abilities and his role. He's an excellent passer of the ball and one of the best deeper lying playmakers in the game. In fact I think he might show up better in Madrid with a consistent DM presence and quite possibly without Modric as I think the latter's time on the ball takes away from Kroos', but Madrid's approach suits Kroos pretty well generally. Still there are other players who have the abilities you mentioned (and are as good as he is in those regards if not better) and who are also more well-rounded than Kroos is.

I also don't think he walks into any team much less any system in the World. I think he'd do really well at Barça for example, but to say he'd walk into the team would be ridiculous. He'd be rotated at best and that wouldn't even just be based on ability or performance. I also don't think he'd walk into Atleti either. After that you have to consider how some teams line up and selection, but he wasn't a lock at Bayern and if you look at perhaps a PSG he's possibly not a lock either. So when you say "any" team I disagree. The number of teams where he doesn't walk in the starting lineup is small, but there are some.

Well I don't know what sort of commentary you're referring to, but the commentary you've said about him being a top 5 midfielder is wrong. Like I said, he's not even top 5 in Spain right now if you consider DMs and that's not just this season but over the course of the past two seasons. He's done nothing to deserve that label. I agree that he's not at his peak yet, but he's likely not far off and he's already 26. Like I said above, there's ability and then there's performance.

 

[les Habs]

RE: Pirlo, nobody treated him with any kind of reverence until he was 30 years old and the appreciation increased as he got older without his performance dropping at all. Kroos has forever and a day to get to that point. Moreover he'll never be the best player on his national team the way Pirlo was. It's the nature of the sport that he won't be seen the same way.

Kroos wouldn't be a star for every team in the world but there are only a few to which that wouldn't apply. I also think that he isn't as good now as he was when he was with Bayern. Goals have disappeared from his game as an example. He is a world class player though, top ten CM.

Well said the whole way round and I agree with everything bar Kroos having forever and a day. That said he has plenty of time. Only other thing I would add is that I recall Pirlo being a match-winner at club level on a basis such that it was notable. Again though, Kroos isn't pulling the strings as much considering who he's playing with like Pirlo was back then.