Post-Game Talk: Grinding win accept it

[Kriss E]

No, I never thought Emelin would end up testing the UFA waters. I figured he'd be re-signed. $4.1M seems fair, and I have a feeling Bergevin will be vindicated the closer it gets to UFA season, as other re-signings start reflecting an inflated Cap. Salaries are going up, whether this year's UFAs re-sign with their team or hit the open market. You thought it was ridiculous last season? Wait'll this year.

Getting it done early with Emelin pre-empted the escalation that's sure to come.
.

I knew the UFA deals were going to be even crazier the moment the new CBA was announced. Which is also why I stessed the importance of singing your Rfas to longer deals ASAP.

As for Emelin though, there was no rush. None. And his price would not have risen had we waited to see if his knee was strong a month after his return.
Now that we know he isn't playing well, then his deal could have been lower.

There is no waiting and seeing. Even if he ends up doing great over the long run. We could have had him for cheaper had we waited.

 

[Whitesnake]

I knew the UFA deals were going to be even crazier the moment the new CBA was announced. Which is also why I stessed the importance of singing your Rfas to longer deals ASAP.

As for Emelin though, there was no rush. None. And his price would not have risen had we waited to see if his knee was strong a month after his return.
Now that we know he isn't playing well, then his deal could have been lower.

There is no waiting and seeing. Even if he ends up doing great over the long run. We could have had him for cheaper had we waited.

I liked Emelin. Still does. Still believes he could turn it around and all. But that signing was and still is mind-boggling....how about you wait till you know how the player will react. Yes, maybe on the doctor side, it was fine. But on the player side, you still need to assess and all and I just didn't understand the rush at all....Amongst tons of other things....

 

[Lshap]

I knew the UFA deals were going to be even crazier the moment the new CBA was announced. Which is also why I stessed the importance of singing your Rfas to longer deals ASAP.

As for Emelin though, there was no rush. None. And his price would not have risen had we waited to see if his knee was strong a month after his return.
Now that we know he isn't playing well, then his deal could have been lower.

There is no waiting and seeing. Even if he ends up doing great over the long run. We could have had him for cheaper had we waited.

How do you know his price wouldn't have risen? Phaneuf's silly contract is just the first volley of more stupid contracts to come, each one raising the salary bar a little bit higher. Sure, had Bergevin waited another few weeks it probably wouldn't have changed much money-wise, but nothing would have changed with Emelin's conditioning either, so nothing would have changed either way. In the end, I can't blame Bergevin for being fiscally proactive, knowing prices were poised to explode.

And on the flip side, why do you think Emelin's price would've gone down if Bergevin had waited? I don't think Emelin's agent would allow his client to be lowballed based on those first games back post-injury, so on what basis would money have been taken off the table? Management won't sign a contract based on a player's hot streak, just like a player won't accept a contract based on his sub-par post-injury play. Those are temporary situations. As long as Emelin's body was fine and Bergevin's money was fair, both parties appear to have gotten what they wanted. I don't see any reason why $4.1M would have become a lesser amount a month later.

I liked Emelin. Still does. Still believes he could turn it around and all. But that signing was and still is mind-boggling....how about you wait till you know how the player will react. Yes, maybe on the doctor side, it was fine. But on the player side, you still need to assess and all and I just didn't understand the rush at all....Amongst tons of other things....

As long as Emelin's injury was behind him, his performance was as much a gamble as any other signing.

We crap on Bergevin for not getting it done sooner with PK, and then we crap on him for not waiting longer with Emelin. The point is that there's no perfect moment to sign a contract. You're always gambling on unseen futures. And before you say it, no, I'm not comparing the two players, just disputing the notion that any player's contract can be timed precisely. Sometimes management wins (Pacioretty) and sometimes they lose (Briere).

The verdict on Emelin's contract will be in by the spring, when he's playing at 100% and other contracts have established new salary averages.

 

[Whitesnake]

We crap on Bergevin for not getting it done sooner with PK, and then we crap on him for not waiting longer with Emelin.

No. I crap on Bergevin and his official bridge rule. 2 much different cases. And now the signature of Emelin is the 1st one out of the important UFA to come next summer. All of this while he had an incredibly significant injury. Subban while not UFA, STILL should have been signed earlier as a sign of showing how important we know he is....and while hopefully OTHER contracts in the league would not have been signed but then....we waited long enough to see Phaneuf getting 7M$ for 7 years.

So I think both situations aren't the same. One should have been signed earlier 'cause we knew full well what he was capable of while the other one, we should have waited a little longer to see what he was capable of. I do have confidence in Emelin. I don't think he's as bad as he's showing lately but I don,t think he deserved a contract signed as early as he did. He'd probably have one, we are missing his type of d-men...but that early? It was surprising to me.

 

[Lshap]

No. I crap on Bergevin and his official bridge rule. 2 much different cases. And now the signature of Emelin is the 1st one out of the important UFA to come next summer. All of this while he had an incredibly significant injury. Subban while not UFA, STILL should have been signed earlier as a sign of showing how important we know he is....and while hopefully OTHER contracts in the league would not have been signed but then....we waited long enough to see Phaneuf getting 7M$ for 7 years.

So I think both situations aren't the same. One should have been signed earlier 'cause we knew full well what he was capable of while the other one, we should have waited a little longer to see what he was capable of. I do have confidence in Emelin. I don't think he's as bad as he's showing lately but I don,t think he deserved a contract signed as early as he did. He'd probably have one, we are missing his type of d-men...but that early? It was surprising to me.

Come on man, you know that Subban's contract is much more complex, with longer terms and much higher numbers than Emelin, not to mention a much tougher agent in Meehan. It's not fair to dump all the responsibility on Bergevin for not getting it done, when you know the other party is playing hardball.

I don't blame Meehan for holding out on behalf of his superstar client, but the result is a much longer tug-of-war with much higher stakes than Emelin's contract.

 

[Whitesnake]

Come on man, you know that Subban's contract is much more complex, with longer terms and much higher numbers than Emelin, not to mention a much tougher agent in Meehan. It's not fair to dump all the responsibility on Bergevin for not getting it done, when you know the other party is playing hardball.

I don't blame Meehan for holding out on behalf of his superstar client, but the result is a much longer tug-of-war with much higher stakes than Emelin's contract.

Well it is more complicated yet what it tells me is that for the Emelin contract, just like the really bad DD contract, what it also tells me is that you look at the contract and you feel like there wasn't any negotiation from the player's agent whatsoever. Look at those contracts and tell me that what we ended up giving was a consensus.....Honestly, it feels like the playes asked....Bergevin accepted. Surely not how it happened, but I fail to see how DD was asking for so much more than what we gave him, same for Emelin. As far as Subban is concerned, honestly, since it is more complicated, how much does he needs? Since when should we have started those negotiations? The funny part is that we all know now that it's going to end up between 8,5 M$ to 9,5M$. And while it's clear that while Meehan is playing hardball, Bergevin is surely again trying to lowball Subban, well in the end, it's STILL going to end up around that amount. Again, it's all about what we know, which is nothing. End-result though is that it takes too much time, and the more time it takes, the more Habs needs to pay. 'Cause on top of the points he puts in.......you then had to add a Norris.....And now...you need to add an Olympic team. So it might be more complicated, feels to me as Bergevin is also not helping himself.......I guess we'll see this year how it will end up. It's not going to be less than 8 M$. Hopefully not going to be more than 9,5M$. I understand the new cap salary world that would permit us to now pay him around that 9M$....I guess Meehan wanted to wait for that. But now that we know....we need to get it done now.

 

[Lshap]

Well it is more complicated yet what it tells me is that for the Emelin contract, just like the really bad DD contract, what it also tells me is that you look at the contract and you feel like there wasn't any negotiation from the player's agent whatsoever. Look at those contracts and tell me that what we ended up giving was a consensus.....Honestly, it feels like the playes asked....Bergevin accepted. Surely not how it happened, but I fail to see how DD was asking for so much more than what we gave him, same for Emelin. As far as Subban is concerned, honestly, since it is more complicated, how much does he needs? Since when should we have started those negotiations? The funny part is that we all know now that it's going to end up between 8,5 M$ to 9,5M$. And while it's clear that while Meehan is playing hardball, Bergevin is surely again trying to lowball Subban, well in the end, it's STILL going to end up around that amount. Again, it's all about what we know, which is nothing. End-result though is that it takes too much time, and the more time it takes, the more Habs needs to pay. 'Cause on top of the points he puts in.......you then had to add a Norris.....And now...you need to add an Olympic team. So it might be more complicated, feels to me as Bergevin is also not helping himself.......I guess we'll see this year how it will end up. It's not going to be less than 8 M$. Hopefully not going to be more than 9,5M$. I understand the new cap salary world that would permit us to now pay him around that 9M$....I guess Meehan wanted to wait for that. But now that we know....we need to get it done now.

No question, the meter is running and Subban's salary is growing every day. You're right that Bergevin is going to have to accept paying him close to $9M. Wow. But I'll repeat: You can't time these things. If Bergevin knew about PK's Norris-winning season, if he knew about the mega-Rogers deal, if he knew about Subban making the Olympics, if if if....

But look at it another way, what if Emelin has a great Olympics? Suddenly his quickie contract doesn't look so bad.

But right now, nothing's bigger than landing Subban. The extra million dollars per season won't change much, especially over the next few years as the Cap increases even more. Bergevin will moan and groan and eventually pay Subban what he's worth, and everyone will be happy in Hab-land. But if there is some penny-pinching principle at work that kills this deal, I will frikkin rescind every ounce of faith in this management and follow curling. Seriously, Bergevin's credibility is hanging on this deal. Luckily, I believe he already knows this.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

As for Emelin though, there was no rush. None. And his price would not have risen had we waited to see if his knee was strong a month after his return.
Now that we know he isn't playing well, then his deal could have been lower.

There is no waiting and seeing. Even if he ends up doing great over the long run. We could have had him for cheaper had we waited.

I said the same thing when it happened. No reason to sign him for when we did. Just another move that indicates to me that MB doesn't seem to know what he's doing.

I'm not going to go all Whiskey Seven on MB, but I haven't been impressed.

 

[Et le But]

Come on man, you know that Subban's contract is much more complex, with longer terms and much higher numbers than Emelin, not to mention a much tougher agent in Meehan. It's not fair to dump all the responsibility on Bergevin for not getting it done, when you know the other party is playing hardball.

I don't blame Meehan for holding out on behalf of his superstar client, but the result is a much longer tug-of-war with much higher stakes than Emelin's contract.

Meehan is Emelin's agent too actually.

Obviously the players are in very different circumstances though.

 

[Lshap]

Meehan is Emelin's agent too actually.

Obviously the players are in very different circumstances though.

Thanks. Totally forgot about that!

 

[Tanknation]

No question, the meter is running and Subban's salary is growing every day. You're right that Bergevin is going to have to accept paying him close to $9M. Wow. But I'll repeat: You can't time these things. If Bergevin knew about PK's Norris-winning season, if he knew about the mega-Rogers deal, if he knew about Subban making the Olympics, if if if....

But look at it another way, what if Emelin has a great Olympics? Suddenly his quickie contract doesn't look so bad.

But right now, nothing's bigger than landing Subban. The extra million dollars per season won't change much, especially over the next few years as the Cap increases even more. Bergevin will moan and groan and eventually pay Subban what he's worth, and everyone will be happy in Hab-land. But if there is some penny-pinching principle at work that kills this deal, I will frikkin rescind every ounce of faith in this management and follow curling. Seriously, Bergevin's credibility is hanging on this deal. Luckily, I believe he already knows this.

So your point of Emelins contract not looking so bad because he plays well at Olympics is.... . He can play incredible for the Russians I don't care does not change a thing unless he can play like that for the habs is all that matters

 

[Prendan Brust]

I believe Habs could easily find takers right now for Emelin at this price tag. He has already shown that he can be quite effective at the NHL level and he only has played 23 games so far this year, he's also coming off a long layoff after a surgery. On top of that, he doesn't play at the side he's used to play. I think all of this mitigate his actual lackluster play. I believe there's a few GM out there that might buy that too. So I don't believe his contract is that much of an issue, at the moment.

On the other hand, if he keeps playing like that for too long it will become difficult to move him. Then the contract will become an issue.

Hopefully, he'll find his game quickly. Olympics might be a confidence booster for him if it goes well.

 

[Kriss E]

How do you know his price wouldn't have risen? Phaneuf's silly contract is just the first volley of more stupid contracts to come, each one raising the salary bar a little bit higher. Sure, had Bergevin waited another few weeks it probably wouldn't have changed much money-wise, but nothing would have changed with Emelin's conditioning either, so nothing would have changed either way. In the end, I can't blame Bergevin for being fiscally proactive, knowing prices were poised to explode.

And on the flip side, why do you think Emelin's price would've gone down if Bergevin had waited? I don't think Emelin's agent would allow his client to be lowballed based on those first games back post-injury, so on what basis would money have been taken off the table? Management won't sign a contract based on a player's hot streak, just like a player won't accept a contract based on his sub-par post-injury play. Those are temporary situations. As long as Emelin's body was fine and Bergevin's money was fair, both parties appear to have gotten what they wanted. I don't see any reason why $4.1M would have become a lesser amount a month later.

I don't know why you're even arguing about this here.

Emelin was signed despite being 8months off due to significant injury.
We're talking about a player that was still growing with barely even 100 games of experience. A player that had a specific role and was rather average in his sophomore year.
There was no deadlines to extend him.

Comparing himself to Phaneuf, an established player who captains his team and plays the most including all situations, is pretty laughable. What next? We're gonna compare him to PK?

There was no rush to extend him. This isn't debatable. So why did we rush? Because he would cost more? Really? I don't see one penny of discount here. 4.1M for 4years?? Where's the discount?
I would have thought an early extension before even coming back would have brought us some type of big discount. Alas, we signed him and took a risk, now we know, he's regularly scratched for playing like crap. You need me to explain to you why his value would have dropped? Really?? You say his agent wouldn't have let these few weeks (actually closer to 2 months) affect his value? Well okay, then you risk losing even more money if they wait more and see his play drop.
Even if his play ends up getting back on track, then there's still some doubts because of that stretch where he struggled. So he wouldn't deserve such an investment.

It's all very simple and logical dude. There was no need to extend him, especially not at those figures.


And if Emelin is worth that much, what will Diaz ask for?
As I said before, MB has been all over the place with his negotiations. Completely inconsistent.

 

[Monctonscout]

I liked Emelin. Still does. Still believes he could turn it around and all. But that signing was and still is mind-boggling....how about you wait till you know how the player will react. Yes, maybe on the doctor side, it was fine. But on the player side, you still need to assess and all and I just didn't understand the rush at all....Amongst tons of other things....

Emelin isn't the first guy to have ACL surgery and have a few hiccups coming back.

All we kept hearing after he went down last year was how valuable he was and irreplaceable and now people are whining at giving him a 4 mil deal that pays him like a #4 d-man.

If I'm an NHL GM and I like a player and can get a deal(contract) done that I like I do it. Waiting for June to make a call on Diaz Emelin and Markov would be moronic. In fact I want all 3 either signed or traded before the deadline, guys like that are too valuable to just let walk. If Markov or Diaz won't be signed then trade them for assets.

 

[Monctonscout]

I believe Habs could easily find takers right now for Emelin at this price tag. He has already shown that he can be quite effective at the NHL level and he only has played 23 games so far this year, he's also coming off a long layoff after a surgery. On top of that, he doesn't play at the side he's used to play. I think all of this mitigate his actual lackluster play. I believe there's a few GM out there that might buy that too. So I don't believe his contract is that much of an issue, at the moment.

On the other hand, if he keeps playing like that for too long it will become difficult to move him. Then the contract will become an issue.

Hopefully, he'll find his game quickly. Olympics might be a confidence booster for him if it goes well.

He played the right side with Kazan and also last year with Markov. Not sure why people bring this up. He didn't struggle last year on the right and his struggles this year are related to the surgery/recovery/rehab not playing on the right.

In an ideal world he would have gotten hurt a few months sooner and been ready in time for camp and it would have been easier than coming back mid November, but in the grand scheme of things the Habs are still #3 in the conference so obviously it hasn't hurt too much.

 

[Lshap]

I don't know why you're even arguing about this here.

Emelin was signed despite being 8months off due to significant injury.
We're talking about a player that was still growing with barely even 100 games of experience. A player that had a specific role and was rather average in his sophomore year.
There was no deadlines to extend him.

Comparing himself to Phaneuf, an established player who captains his team and plays the most including all situations, is pretty laughable. What next? We're gonna compare him to PK?

There was no rush to extend him. This isn't debatable. So why did we rush? Because he would cost more? Really? I don't see one penny of discount here. 4.1M for 4years?? Where's the discount?
I would have thought an early extension before even coming back would have brought us some type of big discount. Alas, we signed him and took a risk, now we know, he's regularly scratched for playing like crap. You need me to explain to you why his value would have dropped? Really?? You say his agent wouldn't have let these few weeks (actually closer to 2 months) affect his value? Well okay, then you risk losing even more money if they wait more and see his play drop.
Even if his play ends up getting back on track, then there's still some doubts because of that stretch where he struggled. So he wouldn't deserve such an investment.

It's all very simple and logical dude. There was no need to extend him, especially not at those figures.


And if Emelin is worth that much, what will Diaz ask for?
As I said before, MB has been all over the place with his negotiations. Completely inconsistent.

- You don't actually think I'm comparing Emelin and Phaneuf as players, do you? Phaneuf's contract was mentioned as evidence that prices overall are going up. Would you or anyone have claimed he was worth $7M a few months ago? Of course not! His salary is a product of the exact inflation I'm talking about. The same inflation that will drive up prices for EVERY player. The same inflation Bergevin probably avoided with Emelin by signing him earlier.

- The word you and others keep coming back to is "Rush". What evidence is there that Bergevin 'rushed'? Yes, if he'd offered the contract before Emelin's knee was confirmed healthy, that would've been a rush. But his knee was 100%. The one remaining factor was how long it would take Emelin to get back to 100% game shape - which he's still doing in January. These were Bergevin's options: 1) Not sign a contract until Emelin is playing at 100%. I'd have no problem with that, but you're gambling on the market. There are lots of 2nd-tier Dmen on the UFA market; plenty will be re-signed between now and April at higher-than-expected salaries. Emelin's $4.1 could have become $4.5 based on similarly inflated contracts that are coming soon. 2) Bergevin could have lowered his price based on Emelin's weak start. This makes no sense. Both parties know that it takes months to get back to 100% in game situations. You don't pay a player based on how he looks while conditioning, you pay him for how he looks once he's conditioned. Lowering the price would have fallen on deaf ears and accomplished nothing.

I would've been fine with Bergevin waiting, but I don't see what would have changed. Everyone knew it would take time for Emelin to get back in shape, which is exactly what's happening, and there's no reason to doubt he'll get there. His temporary on-ice issues will be solved by teaching and experience, and are unrelated to his injury. Montreal has the player it wanted, Emelin has a fair salary, everyone's happy. I see zero problems with this deal. So how was it a "Rush", and how will we suffer from it in the long run?

As to Diaz, I predicted he'd sign for $2.5 to $2.75M. But now I'm wondering if the same inflationary mood will push him higher. Hope not.

Finally, regarding Bergevin's inconsistency, there's no question he's made some weird moves I can't figure out, but he hasn't done anything terrible either. It'll be the Subban contract that cements his reputation. If he signs Subban for $8.5 -- even... gulp... $9M - I'll keep the faith. But blowing it with our franchise star would be unforgivable.

 

[Whitesnake]

Emelin isn't the first guy to have ACL surgery and have a few hiccups coming back.

All we kept hearing after he went down last year was how valuable he was and irreplaceable and now people are whining at giving him a 4 mil deal that pays him like a #4 d-man.

If I'm an NHL GM and I like a player and can get a deal(contract) done that I like I do it. Waiting for June to make a call on Diaz Emelin and Markov would be moronic. In fact I want all 3 either signed or traded before the deadline, guys like that are too valuable to just let walk. If Markov or Diaz won't be signed then trade them for assets.

Well, as far as I was concerned on the whole Price debate, I was amongst the few AGAINST the infamous Emelin went down, hence the whole reason why Price looked bad excuse. While it didn't help, incredible that noboby remembered how TERRIBLE that Emelin-Markov pairing looked 3 weeks before his injury.

If I'm a GM, like a player, but still want to be sure of how he'll do despite a significant injury, I still wait a little. And again, frankly, it is impossible for me that Emelin asked so much money that he then had to settle for 4 M$ for 4 years. Seemed to be that Bergevin loves his stability no matter how it turns out. Stability is great...but it has to be stability of a great team....not an ordinairy one. Again, I do like Emelin, he brings something we don't have. But I will never get the rush.