Gretzky vs Ovi/Crosby

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Hard to go against Gretzky, but having a top 10 forward OAT on line 1 and line 2 is too tempting to pass up.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Prime Gretzky alone.

We've already seen Prime Crosby and Malkin together for over a decade and they didnt match Gretzky

Uh yeah, they did. And then some.

Peak Gretzky needed 5-6 other legit hall of famers on his team to win a cup. Without them, he won no cups. Without him, they won another one.

Gretzky is the greatest player of all time and it is not close (there is no big four, there is Gretzky, on his own tier) but people are way overrating the possibility of how much of an impact 1 player can possibly have. That maximum is far less than the value of Crosby + Ovechkin.

Put another way, how much ice time is Gretzky going to get? Let's say you ride him hard and give him 24 minutes a night.

Ovechkin and Crosby are each playing 21. So it's really 42 minutes of Ovechkin/Crosby vs 24 minutes of Gretzky.

Put another way, Gretzky's career PPG is 1.92. Adjusted for era, Crosby + Ovechkin's PPG is approximately 3.1.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Who would you rather have on your team in their PRIME, assuming all other players are more or less the same. Prime Gretzky alone, or Prime Ovi and Crosby together?

Gretzky could take a second liner and turn him into a first team all-star. Plus, you're paying one player 12 million (assumptions here) instead of two players 8.5-12 million each.

 

[Laineux]

I have to imagine that Gretzky would bring more goals above replacement than Ovechkin and Crosby combined.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

As others have said, having two great players is better than the greatest ever because of injury risk, spreading talent down the lines, etc. In terms of talent and output alone it's 99, but when you start thinking in team management terms, I think it's Sid and Ovy from a practical standpoint.

 

[Tweed]

It depends on whether Gretzky has to deal with any kind of physical contact whatsoever. Because if the answer is "yes"... then my next question would be "Will my team be playing more than 1 game?"

 

[MakeTheGoalsLarger]

Crosby and Ovie

the duo is way more likely to win the cup

Both Gretzky and Lemieux needed to be on a boosted team to win the cup.

 

[Varan]

The greatest player of all time vs. 2 potential top-10 players of all time? I really don't know. I'd go with OV/Crosby because those two together IN THEIR PRIME would be the equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters, and injury wise 2 stars > 1, so I would be left with 1. Then again there is Gretzky.....

You know you're too great when it's hard to choose 2 other all-time greats over you

 

[Machinehead]

Gretzky.

Crazy thread is crazy.

This.

Gretzky had a fistful of seasons where he outscored these two combined.

 

[authentic]

Lol Gretzky is not better than Crosby and Ovechkin combined, haha please no!

 

[Thenameless]

I voted Gretzky but a fairer question might have been Gretzky/Kurri versus Crosby/Ovechkin.

No, that would not be a fairer question. Any reasonable Hall of Fame player with Gretzky, and you take that pair.

 

[Plural]

No, that would not be a fairer question. Any reasonable Hall of Fame player with Gretzky, and you take that pair.

Yeah, Gretzky/Kurri is >>>>> Crosby/OV. The difference between Gretzky and Crosby is way bigger than the difference between Kurri and OV.

 

[bobbyking]

Wow someone actually found a way to overrate Gretzky. Good stuff

 

[smokingwriter]

Gretzky's always been overrated.

Wow someone actually found a way to overrate Gretzky. Good stuff

 

[GlitchMarner]

Gretzky's always been overrated.

Definitely better than your boy Sidney regardless.


But I don't think I would take him over both prime Crosby and Ovechkin.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Prime Gretzky alone.

We've already seen Prime Crosby and Malkin together for over a decade and they didnt match Gretzky

Maybe they didn't match him individually. But Crosby/Malkin are arguably the best 1-2 punch of all time.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Maybe they didn't match him individually. But Crosby/Malkin are arguably the best 1-2 punch of all time.

fair, and not really disputing that. I'd say they're a top 3 all time combo (I definitely Take Orr and Espo over them)

So, i went and looked out of curiosity and if you combine Crosby and Malkin into 1 player, they are still not close to Gretzky.

Crosby + Malkin

781-1265-2046 in 1648 games

Gretzky

894 - 1963 - 2857 in 1487 games

Crosby + Malkin

6 Cups, 3 Smythe, 4 Harts, 4 Ross, 1 Rocket

Gretzky:

4 Cups, 2 Smythe, 9 Harts, 10 Ross, 5 Rockets

 

[Thenameless]

fair, and not really disputing that. I'd say they're a top 3 all time combo (I definitely Take Orr and Espo over them)

So, i went and looked out of curiosity and if you combine Crosby and Malkin into 1 player, they are still not close to Gretzky.

Crosby + Malkin

781-1265-2046 in 1648 games

Gretzky

894 - 1963 - 2857 in 1487 games

Crosby + Malkin

6 Cups, 3 Smythe, 4 Harts, 4 Ross, 1 Rocket

Gretzky:

4 Cups, 2 Smythe, 9 Harts, 10 Ross, 5 Rockets

And we all know that Gretzky would lose the Smythe while leading the playoffs in scoring, while Crosby would win the Smythe while not leading the playoffs in scoring. It is certainly worth noting. I would take Gretzky's two or three top non-Smythe-winning playoff performances over Crosby's two Smythe-winning playoff performances.

 

[North Cole]

Uh yeah, they did. And then some.

Peak Gretzky needed 5-6 other legit hall of famers on his team to win a cup. Without them, he won no cups. Without him, they won another one.

Gretzky is the greatest player of all time and it is not close (there is no big four, there is Gretzky, on his own tier) but people are way overrating the possibility of how much of an impact 1 player can possibly have. That maximum is far less than the value of Crosby + Ovechkin.

Put another way, how much ice time is Gretzky going to get? Let's say you ride him hard and give him 24 minutes a night.

Ovechkin and Crosby are each playing 21. So it's really 42 minutes of Ovechkin/Crosby vs 24 minutes of Gretzky.

Put another way, Gretzky's career PPG is 1.92. Adjusted for era, Crosby + Ovechkin's PPG is approximately 3.1.

I don't think you can just add them together. They would likely play 1LW and 1C. Not to mention that they would be sharing power play points, where Crosby generates 50% of his production and OV slightly less. It's not as simple as just putting two numbers together, to then say - well this is nearly double so they are better. Same with the TOI...

3 cups in 9 years is not really the same as 4 in 5.

You make it sound like he never got close, LA made the finals in 92/93. They didn't win obviously, but it seems disigenious to just say - couldn't win without them.

I think it's close and I'm sort of on the fence, so I defaulted to the better player. This is before factoring in cap constraints, which make it less close...

Disgree with the HOF part, as we don't know who will be a HOF from this group of pens. If Kessel or Murray become HOF players then our view could change wrt to the support Corby had. It's obviously unlikely, especially for Kessel, but I think it's too early to make this claim.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

And we all know that Gretzky would lose the Smythe while leading the playoffs in scoring, while Crosby would win the Smythe while not leading the playoffs in scoring. It is certainly worth noting. I would take Gretzky's two or three top non-Smythe-winning playoff performances over Crosby's two Smythe-winning playoff performances.

his 2nd best playoff run was in a Cup Finals loss.

93 going for 15-25-40 in 24 games

 

[Midnight Judges]

I don't think you can just add them together. They would likely play 1LW and 1C.

I don't think so. Crosby gets paired with certain types of wingers because that's who he gels with. None of them have ever been remotely close to Ovechkin in terms of style of play. The closest player the Pens have had in the Crosby years is Kessel, and they stunk together in the limited number of games where it was tried.

I think you split Crosby and Ovechkin onto two lines because they both can carry a line. Ovechkin is productive regardless of if he's playing with Zubris or Kozlov or Ribiero or Backstrom or Kuznetsov.

You make a lot of good points though.

 

[Fantomas]

Gretzky. Because you pair this guy with anyone who is half-decent offensively and he will immediately make that player better.

Remember Bernie Nicholls? You can find someone at least as good as Nicholls and profit.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Disgree with the HOF part, as we don't know who will be a HOF from this group of pens. If Kessel or Murray become HOF players then our view could change wrt to the support Corby had. It's obviously unlikely, especially for Kessel, but I think it's too early to make this claim.

Which of the HoF'ers from those Oilers teams would you rank below Kessel or Murray (assuming their careers play out along the same trajectories they have been on). I think you would have a hard time making the case.

 

[Varan]

I don't think so. Crosby gets paired with certain types of wingers because that's who he gels with. None of them have ever been remotely close to Ovechkin in terms of style of play. The closest player the Pens have had in the Crosby years is Kessel, and they stunk together in the limited number of games where it was tried.

I think you split Crosby and Ovechkin onto two lines because they both can carry a line. Ovechkin is productive regardless of if he's playing with Zubris or Kozlov or Ribiero or Backstrom or Kuznetsov.

You make a lot of good points though.

Ya but these 2 are so great that them not making it work should be impossible. They're too great not to. They both take the scoring load off of another's shoulders because how can you stop them both AT THE SAME TIME?

 

[bobbyking]

Gretzky. Because you pair this guy with anyone who is half-decent offensively and he will immediately make that player better.

Remember Bernie Nicholls? You can find someone at least as good as Nicholls and profit.

They didn't play on the same line