Gretzky TOI

[Filthy Dangles]

Is there any information/estimation as to how much time on ice he spent per game at his peak in the 80's?

And a bonus question, Hockey-Reference's Game Logs only back to 1987-88 season, anyone know of another site that goes beyond that?

Click to read more...

 

[streitz]

A lot.



On a serious not I don't know, but I feel like he was on the ice all the time against the Jets.

 

[shazariahl]

Watching old games, he's usually around 24 min

 

[VanIslander]

I recall Messier often being double shifted in the Oiler dynasty days. Announcers said the team basically had two number 1 centers, making it hard for any other center to see much ice time.

 

[seventieslord]

1980	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	22.686	17.631	3.650	1.405
1981	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	24.563	18.325	4.991	1.247
1982	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	25.229	18.882	4.840	1.506
1983	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	24.601	17.351	4.391	2.860
1984	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	26.185	18.260	4.761	3.164
1985	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	25.880	18.402	4.278	3.200
1986	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	26.968	18.500	4.465	4.004
1987	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	25.769	18.248	4.916	2.605
1988	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	25.207	17.739	4.908	2.560
1989	0	LAK	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	26.209	16.741	5.493	3.974
1990	0	LAK	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	25.276	17.282	4.822	3.172
1991	0	LAK	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	25.083	18.439	5.463	1.181
1992	0	LAK	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	24.226	16.819	5.581	1.827
1993	0	LAK	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	21.534	15.096	4.691	1.746
1994	0	LAK	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	25.076	16.598	5.668	2.809
1995	0	LAK	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	22.058	15.014	4.473	2.571
1996	k	STL	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	21.820	15.161	4.763	1.897
1997	0	NYR	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	21.561	17.165	3.381	1.015
1998	0	NYR	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	21.580	16.950	4.100	0.520
1999	0	NYR	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	21.070	16.140	4.530	0.410

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[blogofmike]

For game logs you can search game by game on nhl.com/stats and filter by player.

Also as a note on 70s table, which are estimates based on goals he was on the ice for, columns are total, ES, PP, PK ice time. For the last 2 years of Gretzky's career nhl.com has actual TOI data.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

1980	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	22.686	17.631	3.650	1.405
1981	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	24.563	18.325	4.991	1.247
1982	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	25.229	18.882	4.840	1.506
1983	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	24.601	17.351	4.391	2.860
1984	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	26.185	18.260	4.761	3.164
1985	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	25.880	18.402	4.278	3.200
1986	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	26.968	18.500	4.465	4.004
1987	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	25.769	18.248	4.916	2.605
1988	0	EDM	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	25.207	17.739	4.908	2.560
1989	0	LAK	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	26.209	16.741	5.493	3.974
1990	0	LAK	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	25.276	17.282	4.822	3.172
1991	0	LAK	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	25.083	18.439	5.463	1.181
1992	0	LAK	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	24.226	16.819	5.581	1.827
1993	0	LAK	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	21.534	15.096	4.691	1.746
1994	0	LAK	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	25.076	16.598	5.668	2.809
1995	0	LAK	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	22.058	15.014	4.473	2.571
1996	k	STL	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	21.820	15.161	4.763	1.897
1997	0	NYR	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	21.561	17.165	3.381	1.015
1998	0	NYR	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	21.580	16.950	4.100	0.520
1999	0	NYR	C	GRETZKY, WAYNE	21.070	16.140	4.530	0.410

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Thank you. Can I ask the source of this? Based on the format of the time going into thousandths decimal place, I assume these are estimations or projections based on actual info available back then?

 

[Big Phil]

26 minutes at his absolute peak sounds about right. There are times people think he was on the ice for 40 minutes and this is just wildly off base. It always seems like the star players are on the ice more often, but it is because we notice them more.

In comparison, McDavid is on the ice 22:45 on average this year. Probably the biggest difference is that Gretzky killed more penalties than McDavid, hence more ice time. I honestly don't think stars were on the ice much more back then than today. They always joke about Phil Esposito staying on the ice over three different wingers, but if you watch a game in his era it is pretty normal as to what you'd expect. Longer shifts yes, but LESS shifts because of that too. Lafleur was "triple shifted" in Game 7 in 1979 according to Don Cherry and this led to the too many men on the ice penalty. That might be the exception, I don't doubt Bowman had him on the ice a lot more. Gretzky was on the ice every other shift in overtime during Game 2 of the 1987 Canada Cup. So there are exceptions, but it wasn't the norm.

Only Bobby Orr would be a guy I could see on the ice more than, say, 30 minutes regularly. I am just venturing a guess here, but if the best defensemen in the NHL, the Prongers, the Bourques, the Lidstroms, played up to 30 minutes a game (Pronger has a couple of years on record playing an average of 30 minutes a game with the Blues). Since we know that, I am guessing that Orr may have been on the ice up to 35 minutes a game, perhaps. But it is just a guess.

 

[Michael Farkas]

You mentioned Orr and Bourque...here are some data points on those two...I can do a couple of Gretzky games at some point pretty easily, there's a ton of them...

26 minutes at his absolute peak sounds about right. There are times people think he was on the ice for 40 minutes and this is just wildly off base. It always seems like the star players are on the ice more often, but it is because we notice them more.

In comparison, McDavid is on the ice 22:45 on average this year. Probably the biggest difference is that Gretzky killed more penalties than McDavid, hence more ice time. I honestly don't think stars were on the ice much more back then than today. They always joke about Phil Esposito staying on the ice over three different wingers, but if you watch a game in his era it is pretty normal as to what you'd expect. Longer shifts yes, but LESS shifts because of that too. Lafleur was "triple shifted" in Game 7 in 1979 according to Don Cherry and this led to the too many men on the ice penalty. That might be the exception, I don't doubt Bowman had him on the ice a lot more. Gretzky was on the ice every other shift in overtime during Game 2 of the 1987 Canada Cup. So there are exceptions, but it wasn't the norm.

Only Bobby Orr would be a guy I could see on the ice more than, say, 30 minutes regularly. I am just venturing a guess here, but if the best defensemen in the NHL, the Prongers, the Bourques, the Lidstroms, played up to 30 minutes a game (Pronger has a couple of years on record playing an average of 30 minutes a game with the Blues). Since we know that, I am guessing that Orr may have been on the ice up to 35 minutes a game, perhaps. But it is just a guess.

Bobby Orr sample shift charts / ice time (manually calculated / logged in good faith):

Boston @ Toronto - Mar 14, 1970 (regular season)
1st Per:
- 1:34 (0:00 to 1:34)
- 1:00 (4:04 to 5:04)
- 0:30 (all SH)
- 0:34* (6:54 to 7:29, shift contained a stoppage = *)
- 2:50* (shift contained a stoppage 2:06 into it)
- 1:16
- 1:48 (15:21 to 17:09, 1:30 was SH)
- 0:58 (0:58 to 0:00)

Tot: 8 shifts, 10:30 (8:30 EV, 0:00 PP, 2:00 SH)

2nd Per:
- 1:16 (0:00 to 1:16)
- 3:45 (2:17 to 6:02, including 2:00 PP)
- 2:38 (7:10 to 9:48 1:53 of PP)
- 2:20 (11:05 to 13:25)
- 1:17 (14:48 to 16:05)
- 1:15* (17:43 to 18:58)

Tot: 6 shifts, 12:31 (8:22 EV, 3:53 PP, 0:00 SH)

3rd Per:
- 1:18 (0:00 to 1:18)
- 1:12*
- 1:23 (0:31 was SH, 4:47 to 6:10)
- 1:52
- 1:42*
- 1:36** (14:12 to 15:48)
- 2:15**
- 0:22

Tot: 8 shifts, 11:40 (11:09 EV, 0:00 PP, 0:31 SH)

Game Tot: 22 shifts, 34:41 (1:35 avg)

###

Boston @ Philadelphia - May 19, 1974 (Stanley Cup Final - Game 6)

1st Per:
- 2:17* (2:00 PP, 0:32 to 2:49)
- 1:53
- 1:08
- 2:03* (2:00 PP, 10:18 to 12:21)
- 0:24 (all SH, 13:58 to 14:22)
- 1:42*
- 1:24** (18:36 to 20:00)

Tot: 7 shifts, 10:51 (7:27 EV, 4:00 PP, 0:24 SH)

2nd Per:
[Played about 3:15 of the first 5:36...there isn't video for this time...but the broadcast said two distinct times that he played 14 to 15 minutes of the 2nd period before settling on 14:30]
- 5:17 (5:36 to 10:53, at least 1:05 was SH, at least 0:55 was PP)
- 3:34 (2:00 PP, 15:02 to 17:36)
- 2:14 (2:00 SH, 17:46 to 20:00)

Tot: 4+ shifts, 14:30 (at least 2:55 of PP, at least 3:05 of SH, likely about 7 or so minutes at EV)

3rd Per:
- 1:27**
- 1:12
- 1:11* (7:02 to 8:12)
- 3:04** (2:00 PP, 10:22 to 13:26)
- 0:52
- 0:48 (16:50 to 17:38)
- 0:22 (19:38 to 20:00)

Tot: 7 shifts, 8:56 (6:56 EV, 2:00 PP, 0:00 SH)

Game Tot: 18+ shifts, 34:17 (1:54 avg)

###

Here's the shift chart for Ray Bourque - May 7, 1983 @ Islanders - Game 6 of the Wales Conference Final (NYI 8-4)

1st Period
0:33* (* - shift contained a stoppage, 0:00 -> 0:33)
1:12
0:22
1:03* [played RW]
0:58
1:06 (10:16 -> 11:22)
0:46 (PP, 12:28 -> 13:14)
2:02* (2:00 of PP, 0:02 at ES; 14:32 -> 16:34)
1:14 (18:16 -> 19:30)
0:12 (19:48 -> 20:00)

1st Per Tot: 10 shifts, 9:28 TOI - 6:42 ES, 2:46 PP, 0:00 PK | played 1:03 at RW

2nd Period:
0:42* (0:17 -> 0:59)
0:45
0:42** (4:19 -> 5:01, [LW])
0:55
0:35 (7:45 -> 8:20, [LW])
1:04
0:56 (13:14 -> 14:10 [LW])
1:18* (PP, 15:49 -> 17:07)
1:03* (0:39 of PK, 18:40 -> 19:43 [LW at ES -> D on PK])

2nd Per Tot: 9 shifts, 8:00 TOI - 6:03 ES, 1:18 PP, 0:39 PK | played 2:37 at LW

3rd Period:
0:33 (PK, 0:00 -> 0:33)
0:56 (PP, 1:17 -> 2:13)
1:12 (3:29 -> 4:41 [LW])
2:29 (2:00 of PP, 4:56 -> 7:25)
1:00 (9:19 -> 10:19)
0:50 (PK, 13:11 -> 12:11)
1:07
0:51 (18:23 -> 19:14)

3rd Per Tot: 8 shifts, 8:58 TOI - 4:39 ES, 2:56 PP, 1:23 PK | played 1:12 at LW

Game total: 27 shifts, 26:26 - 17:24 ES, 7:00 PP, 2:02 PK | played 4:52 at either wing


Just keeping these together for those that care...

Here's the shift chart for Ray Bourque - April 11, 1991 vs. Hartford - Game 5 of the Adams Division Semifinal (Bos 6-1)

1st Period:
0:33 (0:00 -> 0:33)
0:58* (* = stoppage during shift)
1:56 (PP; 4:26 -> 6:22)
1:20* (7:37 -> 8:57)
2:14 (2:00 of PP; 9:29 -> 11:43)
1:02 (PP, 12:04 -> 13:06)
0:36 (14:39 -> 15:15)
0:30 (PK, 16:11 -> 16:41)
0:59 (PK, 19:01 -> 20:00)

1st Per Tot: 9 shifts, 10:08 TOI - 4:43 ES, 3:56 PP, 1:29 PK

2nd Period:
1:22 (1:01 of PK; 0:00 -> 1:22)
1:00* (2:15 -> 3:15)
2:03** (0:40 of PK; 4:35 -> 6:58)
1:10 (7:26 -> 8:36)
0:39 (10:25 -> 11:04)
1:00
0:58 (PK, 14:59 -> 15:57)
0:54 (17:09 -> 18:03)
0:55 (0:18 of PP; 19:05 -> 20:00)

2nd Per Tot: 9 shifts, 10:01 TOI - 7:04 ES, 0:18 PP, 2:39 PK

3rd Period:
1:20* (PP, 0:00 -> 1:20)
0:50
1:03 (3:48 -> 4:51)
1:35* (5:34 -> 7:09)
0:47* (7:56 -> 8:43)
1:46* (0:33 of PP; 9:47 -> 11:33)
0:42
1:15* (13:48 -> 15:03)
0:43 (0:39 of PP; 16:14 -> 16:57)

3rd Per Tot: 9 shifts, 10:01 TOI - 7:29 ES, 2:32 PP, 0:00 PK

Game Total: 27 shifts, 30:10 TOI - 19:16 ES, 6:46 PP, 4:08 PK


Truthfully, I didn't see the maturity that I expected to see from Bourque. This was a sloppy game overall for him, though he was better in the 3rd period. The score looks lopsided, but it was 1-0 Hartford in the 3rd period actually. Bourque scored from center on Sidorkecwicz when the Bruins were being heavily outplayed for 40 minutes and that obviously turned the series for Boston (which was 2-2, with Boston behind in the game)...you know what I say about bad goals at bad times...anyway, doing some more film study on earlier on Bourque, I think I oversold him on my list and oversold him a little in this thread...I'm now more convinced that Harvey is even further ahead of him and the gap from Beliveau/Hull/Harvey to the field is greater than first anticipated.

I will also have to re-examine Nicklas Lidstrom vs. Ray Bourque...as I had them back to back and struggled with them, ultimately putting Bourque ahead...I'd like a chance to challenge myself on that...it feels fairly likely I'll get that chance I think...

 

[Big Phil]

Sounds about right. Bourque hitting 30 minutes in a playoff game. Orr with 34 minutes in a game in 1970 and a huge game that they needed him in Game 6 of the Cup final in 1974. That all sounds and looks about right. He was also in the penalty box for two minutes right at the end of the game in 1974 too.

 

[The Panther]

The estimates by seventieslord (above) look roughly correct to me.

Game 6 of the Calgary-Edmonton series in 1986 -- a game in which early-dynasty Edmonton was facing elimination and fell behind 0-2 in the game -- I believe Gretzky was unofficially clocked at playing 32 minutes, according to CBC broadcasters.

So, that would be the extreme high situation, or, perhaps, a special game (like the 50-in-39 game) where he was chasing down a big record on a given night.

 

[reckoning]

I've tracked a few of his games from the 80s, and he's usually around 25 min. But it varies depending on game circumstance. He gets more shifts if the Oilers are trailing or tied, but if they're up by a goal then you'll see a lot of Messier or MacTavish. The number of power plays also has an impact, as he obviously gets all those shifts.

A note about Game 2 of the 87 Canada Cup. When I timed the game, I had him at 36:02. That's still a lot, but for a 90 minute game, it's nothing out of the ordinary for a team's top centre. The documentary on the dvd says that he played over 50 minutes. Sometimes things get exaggerated.

 

[McGarnagle]

Not to hijack the thread, but I'm curious to hear more about Ray Bourque playing shifts at RW and LW. Looks like it was at even strength too. Was that a common thing during his younger days or was Cashman just throwing the whole kitchen sink out there in an elimination playoff game?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Seemed to be fairly common...relatively speaking...Fred Cusick didn't find it remarkable in that game, which I think speaks plenty...

 

[seventieslord]

Thank you. Can I ask the source of this? Based on the format of the time going into thousandths decimal place, I assume these are estimations or projections based on actual info available back then?

Iain Fyffe did these around 2006, using situational goals for and against.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Iain Fyffe did these around 2006, using situational goals for and against.

As for the inevitable question about how accurate this is - Fyffe tested a small sample of players from the first few seasons where ice time was officially tracked (1999, 2000, somewhere around there). In other words - he calculated their ice time per his formula and compared it to their actual, official ice time per the NHL. There were differences (obviously) but I think the average error worked out to about 7-8% per player. I also did some spot-checking and got similar results.

 

[reckoning]

The estimated numbers are a great resource that I've consulted countless times. But one of the issues I have with them is that defensive-minded forwards may be getting shortchanged. Since it's based on goals scored when a player is on the ice, a player who is good at holding the opposition scoreless doesn't get much credit unless his team is scoring.

For example, it has Bob Gainey at only 13.8 minutes a game on the 76-77 Habs; less than Lambert or Houle. There's no way his actual TOI was that low.

 

[Killion]

For example, it has Bob Gainey at only 13.8 minutes a game on the 76-77 Habs; less than Lambert or Houle. There's no way his actual TOI was that low.

Right. Does not compute.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I've tracked a few of his games from the 80s, and he's usually around 25 min. But it varies depending on game circumstance. He gets more shifts if the Oilers are trailing or tied, but if they're up by a goal then you'll see a lot of Messier or MacTavish. The number of power plays also has an impact, as he obviously gets all those shifts.

A note about Game 2 of the 87 Canada Cup. When I timed the game, I had him at 36:02. That's still a lot, but for a 90 minute game, it's nothing out of the ordinary for a team's top centre. The documentary on the dvd says that he played over 50 minutes. Sometimes things get exaggerated.

Reck, if you have some numbers of games that you're sure of and care to share, I recently started a compendium of pre-1998 ice time figures...no obligation, of course...

 

[Vanzig]

I have roughly 50+ Oiler Games on VHS/DVD-r,

I used a stopwatch to time about 5 games and they were roughly between 22 mins - 26 mins a game,

He did a lot of PK too and was wicked SHORTHANDED!!!!

 

[decma]

As for the inevitable question about how accurate this is - Fyffe tested a small sample of players from the first few seasons where ice time was officially tracked (1999, 2000, somewhere around there). In other words - he calculated their ice time per his formula and compared it to their actual, official ice time per the NHL. There were differences (obviously) but I think the average error worked out to about 7-8% per player. I also did some spot-checking and got similar results.

Do you know what the range of errors was among the players he tested?

Thanks.

 

[reckoning]

I have his numbers from the '87 Canada Cup handy:

RR vs Cze: 23:25
RR vs Fin: 20:00
RR vs U.S.: 23:31
RR vs Swe: 19:35
RR vs Sov: 28:11
QF vs Cze: 21:03
F1 vs Sov: 28:32 (ot)
F2 vs Sov: 36:02 (2ot)
F3 vs Sov: 25:53

His ES time was usually consistent in the 16-18 range. Amount of power play time accounted for the variance in his total icetime from game to game.


The last Oiler game I did was Game 2 of the 88 series against Calgary (60 min + 8 min OT). I had him at 32:51 for that game, but I'm positive that was a higher than usual situation. The Flames had last change and would always put their checkers against him (something they apparently didn't do in Game 1). So Sather double-shifted him until he got a more favorable matchup.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Do you know what the range of errors was among the players he tested?

Thanks.

It turns that Iain has a copy of the original article on his new(er) website - Hockey Historysis: Puckerings archive: Estimating Ice Time (14 Mar 2001)

He doesn't show the breakdown by individual (it's only shown for forwards, defensemen, and overall). The differences were slightly larger than I remembered.

I'll see if I can dig up my calculations (these would have been a long time ago - at least 10 years ago, maybe 15) but it's probably not likely that I still have these.

 

[golfortennis]

I have his numbers from the '87 Canada Cup handy:

RR vs Cze: 23:25
RR vs Fin: 20:00
RR vs U.S.: 23:31
RR vs Swe: 19:35
RR vs Sov: 28:11
QF vs Cze: 21:03
F1 vs Sov: 28:32 (ot)
F2 vs Sov: 36:02 (2ot)
F3 vs Sov: 25:53

His ES time was usually consistent in the 16-18 range. Amount of power play time accounted for the variance in his total icetime from game to game.


The last Oiler game I did was Game 2 of the 88 series against Calgary (60 min + 8 min OT). I had him at 32:51 for that game, but I'm positive that was a higher than usual situation. The Flames had last change and would always put their checkers against him (something they apparently didn't do in Game 1). So Sather double-shifted him until he got a more favorable matchup.

Don't they have a graphic during the broadcast that show him playing something like 7:30 of the last 8:30 at one point late in the game? Ever since Rogers took over I think they have all past rights to Classic can't even show NHL games now(sucks royally), so I haven't seen it in years. But I seem to recall some crazy stat lat ein the game like that.