Gretzky isn't the greatest goal scorer?

[ManofSteel55]

Wrong. Brett Hull had the deadliest slapshot in his prime.

Hull and Gretzky had different primes.

 

[ManofSteel55]

No he didn't HaHa

Accurate yes, but I recall he was actually thought of as having a very weak slapshot (like they say McDavid's shot is weak)

Deadliest slapshot in the game during Gretzky's prime...probably Al MacInnis...Doug Wilson's was pretty good...and there are many others that would have been considered above Gretzky (probably a couple/few players on most teams had a better slapshot than Gretzky)

I think you missed the guys point. Lots of guys had a harder slapshot than Gretz did. He was very average in terms of slapper strength. But he could thread a needle with it out of so many different scenarios, where most guys couldn't do that. MacInnis and Al Iafrate had the best shots in the world from the point in terms of power, but Gretzky could score with his in a wider variety of scenarios. I'm not saying I agree necessarily, but I think that's what the other guy was saying.

 

[Elche1975]

Interestingly, I looked around now, and found out that Alexander Riazantsev of the KHL recorded a 114mph slapshot in the KHL. He's only 6'0", albeit with 209lbs, almost identical to PK Subban's stats. Kuteikin scored 3 goals from the red line in the last KHL playoffs and is nicknamed the "Tsar-Cannon"

Alot of russians have deadly shots, 1 of the best(if you're old enough you might remember) was Quebec Nordiques Mikhail Tatarinov, that guy i would of been curious to get a proper MPH on his shots! He was dangerous because he was so innacurate lol

I think the second highest who is the one in the guiness book at 110 is also a russian.

 

[Elche1975]

I think you missed the guys point. Lots of guys had a harder slapshot than Gretz did. He was very average in terms of slapper strength. But he could thread a needle with it out of so many different scenarios, where most guys couldn't do that. MacInnis and Al Iafrate had the best shots in the world from the point in terms of power, but Gretzky could score with his in a wider variety of scenarios. I'm not saying I agree necessarily, but I think that's what the other guy was saying.

I agree, but its logical, less power more accurate. The guys that can have accuracy and power are rare!

But in today's hockey a slapper if the goalie can see properly dont work often, this couldnt end up in as many goals now. Alot of them were also slapper that dont even leave the ice and the goalie was just there standing and not covering angles properly. Its 2 different worlds.

 

[morehockeystats]

Alot of russians have deadly shots, 1 of the best(if you're old enough you might remember) was Quebec Nordiques Mikhail Tatarinov, that guy i would of been curious to get a proper MPH on his shots! He was dangerous because he was so innacurate lol

I think the second highest who is the one in the guiness book at 110 is also a russian.

I know Tatarinov, but I don't remember him much, because I only saw him playing for Sokol Kiev and Dynamo Moscow, and between 1991 and 2011 I was not able to watch practically any hockey.

Tatarinov turned out to have had quite a life. Here's a long interview in Russian. I haven't the resources to translate it, but maybe google translate will be decent enough.

http://www.sport-express.ru/fridays/reviews/830975/

The most piquant piece: Tatarinov did time for murder ...

 

[Elche1975]

I know Tatarinov, but I don't remember him much, because I only saw him playing for Sokol Kiev and Dynamo Moscow, and between 1991 and 2011 I was not able to watch practically any hockey.

Tatarinov turned out to have had quite a life. Here's a long interview in Russian. I haven't the resources to translate it, but maybe google translate will be decent enough.

http://www.sport-express.ru/fridays/reviews/830975/

The most piquant piece: Tatarinov did time for murder ...

Thank you for the infos i didnt know all this about if after life career.

If you check on youtube there is a couple of slapers goals from him from french quebec tv of the time.

 

[squaleca]

K, so if I change it for Gretzky so it's his goal-scoring prime (1979-80 to 1990-91), it's still 0.77622 goals per game (718 goals in 925 games), which is less than Lemieux.[/QUOTES

are we talking marios career gpg or that stretch?

 

[squaleca]

the way i look at it in their primes who reached miles stones faster Wayne and by wide margins 200 goals 300 goals 400 500 600 700 and the only player to record 800

i mean look at waynes last 10 years whats his avg gps like 20 that should tell u something

 

[cole von cole]

K, so if I change it for Gretzky so it's his goal-scoring prime (1979-80 to 1990-91), it's still 0.77622 goals per game (718 goals in 925 games), which is less than Lemieux.[/QUOTES

are we talking marios career gpg or that stretch?

That stretch of time

 

[squaleca]

That stretch of time

problem is evryone is assuming mario is going to keep up the pace later on during his career which we all know is impossible

 

[Neutrinos]

Alot of russians have deadly shots, 1 of the best(if you're old enough you might remember) was Quebec Nordiques Mikhail Tatarinov, that guy i would of been curious to get a proper MPH on his shots! He was dangerous because he was so innacurate lol

I think the second highest who is the one in the guiness book at 110 is also a russian.

Tataroniv would occasionally have a shot power of 99 in NHL94

 

[Neutrinos]

Lemieux in his first 788 games (through his age 35 season) averaged .82 GPG

Gretzky in his first 774 games (through his age 28 season) averaged .82 GPG

 

[VanIslander]

One sign of pure skill in goal scoring is the ability to do it when NOT on the powerplay. Gretzky had a lot of pp goals.

Here is the all-time list of EVEN STRENGTH goals. Notice how close the numbers are between Gretz and others. If you were to factor in career length, then he's no longer even on top.


1. Wayne Gretzky* 1979-99 617
2. Jaromir Jagr 1990-17 537
3. Marcel Dionne* 1971-89 478
4. Mike Gartner* 1979-98 468
5. Brett Hull* 1986-06 456
6. Mark Messier* 1979-04 452
7. Phil Esposito* 1963-81 445
8. Steve Yzerman* 1983-06 440
9. Teemu Selanne* 1992-14 422
10. Luc Robitaille* 1986-06 418
11. Jarome Iginla 1996-17 415
12. Jari Kurri* 1980-98 407
13. Mario Lemieux* 1984-06 405
14. Guy Lafleur* 1971-91 404
15. Brendan Shanahan* 1987-09 396
16. Joe Sakic* 1988-09 388
17. Mike Bossy* 1977-87 384

Notice the 20ish years played of the whole bunch vs, Bossy's 10.
Could someone crunch some even strength goals per games played average?
I'm sure Bossy comes out on top.

 

[CHGoalie27]

Pure goalscorer, no. Playmaker, easily.

Define pure goal scorer? Like someone who only job is to put the puck in the net?

Yeah Gretzky was the best goal scorer, but seeing as how he was also the best playmaker, logic says he can't be the best pure goal scorer....or best pure playmaker (like a Joe Thornton)

It is my strongest opinion toward the game of hockey that someone saying Wayne Gretzky isn't the best at scoring goals and passing the puck should be open to all the infraction worthy material one can think of.

Wayne Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time. He was the greatest goal scorer AND playmaker. Of all time, and it's not even up for debate. Thinking about what it is to be a playmaker, the guy scored the goals banking off his teammates sticks and should've gotten the credit for such.

It's embarrassing in the face of the most simple question there is to answer...like if you bend the stat this way....really?

How many goals did anyone get in his best season? Gretzky got more.

How many goals did anyone get in their career? Gretzky got more.

How many PLAYOFF goals did anyone get in their career?

Top 10 highest goal scoring seasons? Gretzky had four of them, including the top 2. The only other repeat on the list made it twice.

He scored in every way possible, and he did it more than anyone.

PLEASE HFBOARDS NO MORE THREADS ABOUT SOMEONE BEING A BETTER GOAL SCORER THAN THE PROVEN GREATEST GOALSCORER EVER.

Wayne scores 802..."THE GREATEST GOAL SCORER IN NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE HISTORY IS WAYNE GRETZKY....except Mike Bossy of course." DOES THAT NOT LOOK STUPID TO ANYONE ELSE? Apparently not, and it's embarrassing.

You LIKE him better than Gretzky? Fine. I like the Rangers better than the Penguins. I can say to other Penguins fans, the Rangers are better. They aren't. Well if you cut out some PP goals scored on penalties you don't agree with then the Rangers win the Stanley Cup and are a better team. Yeah no, the Penguins just actually won the Cup, and the Rangers still did not. Sucks for me, I guess I was wrong when I told the Penguins fan my team was better.


SHUT. IT. DOWN. DEBATE SOMETHING THAT SHOULD ACTUALLY BE UP FOR DEBATE.

 

[CHGoalie27]

delete

 

[The Panther]

One sign of pure skill in goal scoring is the ability to do it when NOT on the powerplay. Gretzky had a lot of pp goals.

Here is the all-time list of EVEN STRENGTH goals. Notice how close the numbers are between Gretz and others. If you were to factor in career length, then he's no longer even on top.


1. Wayne Gretzky* 1979-99 617
2. Jaromir Jagr 1990-17 537
3. Marcel Dionne* 1971-89 478
4. Mike Gartner* 1979-98 468
5. Brett Hull* 1986-06 456
6. Mark Messier* 1979-04 452
7. Phil Esposito* 1963-81 445
8. Steve Yzerman* 1983-06 440
9. Teemu Selanne* 1992-14 422
10. Luc Robitaille* 1986-06 418
11. Jarome Iginla 1996-17 415
12. Jari Kurri* 1980-98 407
13. Mario Lemieux* 1984-06 405
14. Guy Lafleur* 1971-91 404
15. Brendan Shanahan* 1987-09 396
16. Joe Sakic* 1988-09 388
17. Mike Bossy* 1977-87 384

No, this is totally wrong.

First of all, your argument is that Gretzky wouldn't be on top if we factor in career length. So, who is?

Here's how it breaks down in ES goals-per-game:
.511 GPG - Bossy
.443 GPG - Lemieux
.415 GPG - Gretzky

So, Gretzky is somewhat behind Mario and considerably behind Bossy in ES goals-per-game. Now, why is that? Oh, yeah, it's because Gretzky played 700 more games than Bossy and 500 more games than Mario.

In reality, in Gretzky's prime he was easily the #1 ES goal-scorer in history (and beyond doubt, the #1 ES point-producer). Here's how the three players above compared in ES goals in corresponding seasons during Gretzky's prime years:

1979-80
37 - Gretzky
35 - Bossy (missed 5 games)
1980-81
38 - Bossy
36 - Gretzky
1981-82
68 - Gretzky
47 - Bossy
1982-83
47 - Gretzky
41 - Bossy
1983-84
55 - Gretzky (missed 6 games)
45 - Bossy (missed 13 games)
1984-85
54- Gretzky
40 - Bossy
32 - Lemieux (missed 7 games)
1985-86
39 - Bossy
38 - Gretzky
31 - Lemieux
1986-87
42 - Gretzky
35 - Lemieux (missed 17 games)
29 - Bossy (missed 17 games)
1987-88
38 - Lemieux
26 - Gretzky (missed 16 games)
1988-89
41 - Lemieux
38 - Gretzky
1989-90
28 - Lemieux (missed 21 games)
26 - Gretzky (missed 7 games)
1990-91
33 - Gretzky
12 - Lemieux (missed 54 games)


In comparison, then:

ES goals Gretzky head-to-head with Bossy 1979-1987:
377 Gretzky (0.597 ESG/G)
314 Bossy (0.524 ESG/G)

ES goals Gretzky head-to-head with Lemieux 1984-1991:
257 - Gretzky (0.483 ESG/G)
217 - Lemieux (0.479 ESG/G)

In addition, Gretzky led the NHL in ES goals 4 times, Bossy 1 time, Lemieux 1 time.

Here are some of Gretzky's goal-totals for single-seasons, not counting any power-play goals (i.e., ES + SH):
1981-82: 74
1982-83: 53
1983-84: 67
1984-85: 65
1986-87: 49

Bossy's best-ever is 47, while Mario's is 54 (done twice).

As he aged, Mario (as is normal) began to score more on special teams. In his big 1995-96 season, for example, he scored a remarkable 39 of his 69 goals (56.5%) on special teams, including 30 (43.5%) on the power-play.

Among Gretzky's more remarkable statistics is that in 1984-85, he led the NHL with 73, and only 8 were scored on the power-play.


CONCLUSION: Gretzky was a better goal-scorer at ES than Bossy or Lemieux. (And he was far, far better than both in overall point-production at ES.) The only reason the "career games" point comes out statistically the way it does is because Gretzky played 562 NHL games past his prime (Bossy played 0 such, and Mario about 127).

 

[VanIslander]

Here's how it breaks down in ES goals-per-game:
.511 GPG - Bossy
.443 GPG - Lemieux
.415 GPG - Gretzky

So, Gretzky is somewhat behind Mario and considerably behind Bossy in ES goals-per-game. Now, why is that? Oh, yeah, it's because Gretzky played 700 more games than Bossy and 500 more games than Mario.

Indeed.

 

[Crosbyfan]

If I need a goal and can pick one player to have on the ice I want Gretzky. If it has to come off his stick I want Lemieux.

If I can pick two I want both. Pure goalscorers, to the degree there is such a thing, need not apply.

 

[The Panther]

Indeed.

Don't play dumb, as if you missed the point: Trying to use career-stat averages with three players, wherein only one played a long, full career, and two didn't, is misleading in the extreme.

It's pretty common knowledge that Gretzky is far and away the best ES point-producer in history. It's also clear, from the stats I provided, that Gretzky blew away Bossy, and also beat Lemieux to '91, in ES goal-scoring.

Do I want a 26-year-old Lemieux, a 24-year-old Bossy, or a 34-year-old Gretzky to have the puck and take one shot with 10 seconds left at even-strength? I'd take Lemieux or Bossy.

Now, if we change those ages to anywhere from 19 to 30? I'd take Gretzky.

 

[squaleca]

wayne avg 62 goals per season over his first 12 seasons. ovis had one 60 goal season

 

[squaleca]

watch wayne without the puck where he goes and then when he gets it what he does watch the canada cup winning goal to mario in 87 it was so simple but he just made the perfect play where he put it in a spot where mario had no choice but to bury it.

 

[squaleca]

gretzky said to coffee the night against philly i think im going to get 50 tonight paul was like what who the hell thinks that hes going to score 5 goals in a game

 

[squaleca]

92
71
87
73

80 goals per season over 4 years
none one comes close to that 4 year stretch and then of course after the 73 goals season he decides to win the scoring title with his assists alone

 

[Albatros]

He said 'deadliest', not hardest. The accuracy made Gretzky's slapper the deadliest. I don't think he is wrong.

Just no.

 

[Drytoast]

No he didn't HaHa

Accurate yes, but I recall he was actually thought of as having a very weak slapshot (like they say McDavid's shot is weak)

Deadliest slapshot in the game during Gretzky's prime...probably Al MacInnis...Doug Wilson's was pretty good...and there are many others that would have been considered above Gretzky (probably a couple/few players on most teams had a better slapshot than Gretzky)

"4 blazing bullets!"