Gretzky isn't the greatest goal scorer?

[sr edler]

Bure was a cherry picking acceleration machine who excelled at breaking away from the pack in 3 strides. Yes it allowed him to score a lot of electric goals. That doesn't make him a better goal scorer unless you are giving points for flair and showmanship(And in his case, basically leaving his teammates partially shorthanded as he hovered around the blueline looking for a cherry pick breakaway. Playmaking centers like carrying the puck and that would actively work against Bure's style more often than not.

Yeah, you're on that same old false narrative. Fresh. Sounds like CNN fake news or something. If Bure built his career on cherry picking then he wouldn't even have needed that crazy acceleration in the first place. I can post you countless of GIFs of Bure accelerating around HOF defensemen scoring. You see what I wrote there? Around. You cherry pick around people? That's news to me, if so. Really. I can post you a GIF where he's accelerating around and beating HOF defenseman Nicklas Lidström scoring a goal shorthanded, and then you can post me a GIF in return when someone else is doing the exact the same thing.

Do you want me to do that?

I can post you a GIF where he's going straight through Ray Bourque scoring a goal. I can post you a GIF where he's skating around the whole New Jersey Devils defense, deking Scott Stevens, and then scoring a goal. There's so many countless examples of what I mentioned, on this thing called the internet, I shouldn't even really have bothered replying to your comment in the first place.

If you want to watch someone cherry pick quite a lot, watch some clips from Teemu Selänne's rookie season.

 

[67 others]

Yeah, you're on that same old false narrative. Fresh. Sounds like CNN fake news or something. If Bure built his career on cherry picking then he wouldn't even have needed that crazy acceleration in the first place. I can post you countless of GIFs of Bure accelerating around HOF defensemen scoring. You see what I wrote there? Around. You cherry pick around people? That's news to me, if so. Really. I can post you a GIF where he's accelerating around and beating HOF defenseman Nicklas Lidström scoring a goal shorthanded, and then you can post me a GIF in return when someone else is doing the exact the same thing.

Do you want me to do that?

I can post you a GIF where he's going straight through Ray Bourque scoring a goal. I can post you a GIF where he's skating around the whole New Jersey Devils defense, deking Scott Stevens, and then scoring a goal. There's so many countless examples of what I mentioned, on this thing called the internet, I shouldn't even really have bothered replying to your comment in the first place.

If you want to watch someone cherry pick quite a lot, watch some clips from Teemu Selänne's rookie season.

Tone down the drama and exaggeration.

Ill fully admit he can deke and skate around great players. No debate there. But he also cherry picked a TON, hovering in that sweet spot trying to pick off a pass and playing the puck instead of the man.

In either case, my main point was Bure was an individualist. His strength was carrying the puck, making his own space and doing it almost alone. Putting him with a playmaking center(who generally are most effective carrying the puck while the goalscorers try to drift to those unguarded spots) would work against his style. He was very one dimensional. It was an amazing electric dimension. Fun as hell to watch. Incredible at times. But still one dimensional.

Now if you put Bure with a Strong transition game Dman who could make that first pass, it would work to his strengths a hell of a lot more than a playmaking center.

In any case, the point is moot. My quote of you was more pointing out your erroneous reasoning that Bossy's numbers were inflated due to teammates, posted evidence of how he did without Trottier as opposed to vice versa(Trottier needs Bossy more than Bossy needs Trottier and Potvin was declining rapidly) and you predictably evaded it.

I get that you want to plug your boy Bure. But you are not going to find allies anywhere that he was better than Bossy.

 

[Zuluss]

Based on any 10-year prime, or all players' first 10 seasons, Gretzky is probably the greatest goal-scorer in NHL history. (I'm not sure that would apply to playoffs, however -- Maurice Richard would take that.)

According to the VsX measure (which benchmarks to #2 in goals in each year and then pro-rates to 100%=50 "adjusted goals"), he is 6th in terms of 10-year peak: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=130701879&postcount=6
For a seven-year peak, he is still 6th, but neck-and-neck with #5 (Ovechkin)
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=130701909&postcount=7
VsX goals do seem tilted towards Original Six (11 player out of top20 are from there), so we might want to take that into account, but I am not sure how we do it.
Probably Vs5th instead of Vs2nd would help, let's hope Hockey Outsider will stop by and help us out with that.

 

[Narow]

Going by most goals in a season we get this.

70+ goal seasons
Greatzky 4
Brett hull 3
Lemieux 2
Selänne 1
Kurri 1
Esposito 1
Mogilny 1
Nicholls 1

So absolute peak goalscorers thats probably it.

Only 3 people have hit 80+

Greatzky 92
Greatzky 87
Hull 86
Lemieux 85

Closest to them

Selänne 76
Esposito 76
Mogilny 76

Then gretzky again with 73

Some of the best goalscorers seasons, games played/goals

Gretzky
80gp 92g
74gp 87g
80gp 73g
80gp 71

Bret hull
78gp 86g
80gp 72g
73gp 70g

Lemieux
76gp 85g
77gp 70g
60gp 69g
70gp 69g

Kurri
73gp 71g
78gp 68g

Bossy
80gp 69g
79gp 68g
80gp 61g

Selänne
84gp 76g

Mogilny
77gp 76g

Esposito
78gp 76g
78gp 68g

Quite the seasons here.

Interesting how kurri and espositos top seasons are so similar ^^

Only 14, 70-goal seasons have been recorded.

 

[Zuluss]

Going by most goals in a season we get this.

70+ goal seasons
Greatzky 4
Brett hull 3
Lemieux 2
Selänne 1
Kurri 1
Esposito 1
Mogilny 1
Nicholls 1

So Howe and Bobby Hull doubled or nearly doubled the production of #10 in goals, and they are not on the list, because the season was 70 games and goals per game were lower.
And then Mogilny and Nicholls make the list ahead of them despite neither one having a single goal-scoring title.

 

[Narow]

So Howe and Bobby Hull doubled or nearly doubled the production of #10 in goals, and they are not on the list, because the season was 70 games and goals per game were lower.
And then Mogilny and Nicholls make the list ahead of them despite neither one having a single goal-scoring title.

It was a simple list going by highest totals by season.
Since season was shorter back then obviously those guys are at an disadvantage.

Seems howe topped out at 49 goals in 70 games and had some close at 47, 44 etc. He had an amazing longetivity and i am sure incredible in his era however compared to 80's and 90's goal per game seasons or close to it his peak fades... obviously era adjusted it may not but im talking raw totals here.

Bobby hull had a few great ones too. 65 games 54 goals, 66gp 52g and 74gp 58g.

But again a bit off goal per game.

Mikes bossy could have made the list with 79gp 68g and 80gp 69g but again in absolute peaks he fades compared to the ones listed.

Feel free to let me know if i have missed some seasons where players have gone goal per game or close to it that could make the list.

If we were to era adjust in sure many would be added to the list, i dont have time for that.

 

[sr edler]

And then Mogilny and Nicholls make the list ahead of them despite neither one having a single goal-scoring title.

Mogilny has a goal scoring title.

 

[Zuluss]

It was a simple list going by highest totals by season.
Since season was shorter back then obviously those guys are at an disadvantage.

Seems howe topped out at 49 goals in 70 games and had some close at 47, 44 etc. He had an amazing longetivity and i am sure incredible in his era however compared to 80's and 90's goal per game seasons or close to it his peak fades... obviously era adjusted it may not but im talking raw totals here.

Raw totals and goals per game are not informative when comparing across eras. Things like top5 finishes and margins of victory over #5 in goals are much better.

Mogilny has a goal scoring title.

Ah, yeah. Shared one with Selanne. I thought it was Bure. But Bure got his first one year later.

 

[maaran]

What did i just read.

 

[Depch]

Delete

 

[biotk]

I am a Lemieux fan, and I can't say who is the greatest goal scorer ever. But Gretzky had an amazing shot.

His slapshot always confused me. It seemed like, especially in his early NHL years, the equivalent of an awkward 12-year-old trying it out for the first time. But it was very hard and amazingly accurate. The other thing I found was that everyone used to say that Gretzky was a pass first player, but I don't think that was really true. Gretzky had a ton of assists because he controlled the play so much and obviously was an amazing passer, but I think that if someone ever ran the statistics of him on 2-on-1s during his oilers days they would find that he probably shot a little more than half the time. He always led the Oilers in shots on goal (except his injury-shortened last season) led the league in shots on goal 4 seasons (and just missed a fifth due to injury), and even in his later years often led his team in shots (hell in 1997 at age 36 he not only led the Rangers in shots on goal, but was 14th in the league).

 

[SI90]

Bossy has the highest goals per game average in NHL history.

Gretzky scored 90+ one year which is insane though.

Gretzky the greatest and Bossy the most consistent?


Also, I think heath has to be taken into account. Who knows if Bossy would have continued to score 50 goals every year for a few more years if healthy or he may have not.

Also, when Gretzky hit his 30's he wasn't the same prolific goal scorer even though he still had some great years. But that brought down his goals per game average.

 

[Narow]

Raw totals and goals per game are not informative when comparing across eras. Things like top5 finishes and margins of victory over #5 in goals are much better.



Ah, yeah. Shared one with Selanne. I thought it was Bure. But Bure got his first one year later.

Yeah i misstyped with the goals per game i meant goals to games ratio.

I know its tricky to compare across eras the best is to just compare within those eras without crossing.

Anyways a poster seemed to believe i made a list of all time best goalscorers ot something...no not really i just listed the players who hit 70 or more goals in history and some of their best seasons.

Best goalscorer was likely gretzky, lemieux or mike bossy in my opinion. Ovi is possibly up there too considering the era.

If someone were to hit 70 or more in this day and era that should be worth alot too.

 

[CHGoalie27]

In my humble opinion, no, Gretzky isn't the best goal scorer. To me, Lemieux is.

I feel that way about Bure and Ovechkin as well as Bossy and Lemieux. All the greatest goal scorers I have ever seen.

At the end of the day, Gretzky did what he did and nobody else did. While whatever hindered OV or Lemieux from even breaking Gretzky's single season record didn't stop Gretzky from setting the bar as high.

Wayne Gretzky is hands down the greatest athlete in the history of any major sport in comparison to peers. Greater than Ruth. Greater than Jordan. His goal scoring records are the better part of why that's a fact and not my opinion.

MC Hammer took the music from Rick James and the words from Wayne Gretzky.

 

[Stuzchuk]

I literally have no idea what you're saying here.

I read all of the OP and this is the first comment, sums up pretty well

 

[cole von cole]

I feel that way about Bure and Ovechkin as well as Bossy and Lemieux. All the greatest goal scorers I have ever seen.

At the end of the day, Gretzky did what he did and nobody else did. While whatever hindered OV or Lemieux from even breaking Gretzky's single season record didn't stop Gretzky from setting the bar as high.

Wayne Gretzky is hands down the greatest athlete in the history of any major sport in comparison to peers. Greater than Ruth. Greater than Jordan. His goal scoring records are the better part of why that's a fact and not my opinion.

MC Hammer took the music from Rick James and the words from Wayne Gretzky.

Not gonna argue that Gretzky isn't the GOAT, but to me, Lemieux is a better goal scorer. Gretzky in his prime (1979-80 to 1993-94), his totals were 803 goals in 1125 games, which is .71377 goals per game. Lemieux in his prime (1984-85 to 2000-01) , his totals were 648 goals in 788 games, which is 0.82233 goals per game. Over an 82 game season, Gretzky would have about 59 goals (58.529777), and Lemieux would score about 67 goals (67.43147). This doesn't account for the different scoring rates of the seasons they played, but you get the idea, since they played a majority of their careers at the same time.

 

[HugoLalumiere]

OK (it's confusing as your comment, as shown above, names Gretzky/Bossy but not Lemieux)


IMO anyone who watched all three players play knows that Gretzky/Lemieux are in a category above Bossy (Bossy was a sniper, and a top all-time sniper but that's it...Gretzky/Lemieux are among the top handful of hockey players of all-time)




I don't think Brett Hull played in Gretzky's "prime" really, and if so not much

Hull's first year scoring 40+ goals was 1988-89, when Gretzky was 28 years old/had played a decade in the NHL, and wasn't even on the Oilers anymore

And I recall Hull used a snapshot mostly, then a wrister, not so much a slapshot (that was his dad HaHa)

I'll admit to never being a Gretzky fan but rather a Lemieux one. Not because I'm a Quebecer like he was but because, immense talent aside, I find Gretzky had it easier. His shot was not deadly hard but deadly precise and he was always given time to use it. Goalies had no chance. When pressed, he had Kurri, Messier, Anderson and Coffey to turn to. Bifferent beasts. Always. I respect Gretzky, forever, but to dismiss Hull and Bossy's work. That's just wrong.

 

[morehockeystats]

Not gonna argue that Gretzky isn't the GOAT, but to me, Lemieux is a better goal scorer. Gretzky in his prime (1979-80 to 1993-94), his totals were 803 goals in 1125 games, which is .71377 goals per game. Lemieux in his prime (1984-85 to 2000-01) , his totals were 648 goals in 788 games, which is 0.82233 goals per game. Over an 82 game season, Gretzky would have about 59 goals (58.529777), and Lemieux would score about 67 goals (67.43147). This doesn't account for the different scoring rates of the seasons they played, but you get the idea, since they played a majority of their careers at the same time.

That's unadulterated cherry picking.

 

[cole von cole]

That's unadulterated cherry picking.

Is it? Career goals per game still favours Lemieux over Gretzky.

 

[Irato99]

Not gonna argue that Gretzky isn't the GOAT, but to me, Lemieux is a better goal scorer. Gretzky in his prime (1979-80 to 1993-94), his totals were 803 goals in 1125 games, which is .71377 goals per game. Lemieux in his prime (1984-85 to 2000-01) , his totals were 648 goals in 788 games, which is 0.82233 goals per game. Over an 82 game season, Gretzky would have about 59 goals (58.529777), and Lemieux would score about 67 goals (67.43147). This doesn't account for the different scoring rates of the seasons they played, but you get the idea, since they played a majority of their careers at the same time.

Originally Posted by morehockeystats View Post
That's unadulterated cherry picking.

Is it? Career goals per game still favours Lemieux over Gretzky.

It is, first of all there's more than a 300 games difference between the two samples, that's unfair to Gretzky. Plus you're really implying Lemieux's prime was until 2001 while he was retired since 1997... Of course the ratio won't change if you're not playing.

 

[cole von cole]

It is, first of all there's more than a 300 games difference between the two samples, that's unfair to Gretzky. Plus you're really implying Lemieux's prime was until 2001 while he was retired since 1997... Of course the ratio won't change if you're not playing.

Did you forget he played in the 2000-01 season? He was 2nd in Hart voting.

 

[morehockeystats]

Is it? Career goals per game still favours Lemieux over Gretzky.

And Bossy over Lemieux. And Lalonde and Malone over Bossy. And Bure and Ovechkin (!) over Gretzky.

Boris Mikhailov also had 0.75 G/GP in the USSR, Guryshev had 379 goals in 300 games, Bobrov 254 in 130.

 

[Irato99]

Did you forget he played in the 2000-01 season? He was 2nd in Hart voting.

Of course I know that, but he didn't play from 97 to that point, he was retired, how can you consider it part of his prime when he didn't score a single goal.

 

[cole von cole]

Of course I know that, but he didn't play from 97 to that point, he was retired, how can you consider it part of his prime when he didn't score a single goal.

I know. He played that year after being retired for 3 years, and he still managed to play that well.

 

[cole von cole]

And Bossy over Lemieux. And Lalonde and Malone over Bossy. And Bure and Ovechkin (!) over Gretzky.

Boris Mikhailov also had 0.75 G/GP in the USSR, Guryshev had 379 goals in 300 games, Bobrov 254 in 130.

I'm talking about in the NHL, and the players in their primes.